Also, playing mmo's made me feel more like a gamer than console games did.  Not sure why though.  However, since I've stopped playing WoW a year or two ago, I've picked up other non-mmo's and still haven't felt like a gamer as much.  Maybe it was the time commitment to a single game...

I think i feel kind of the same way the OP does, i am just tired of MMOs right now. Recently i played the beta of that fancy action MMO which will be released soon in the west. 

Well, it was kind of ok. I am a visual guy, i "need" the visuals to immerse myself into the game. That is why i wont play games like wurm or minecraft, which, ironicly, have the features i like and desire. 

However, back to that action MMO. It looks nice and all, but i had this strange dejavue feeling, which i had a thousand times before. You pop in the world, speak to the NPC who is standing 5 meters before you, he tells you stuff and you begin killing some mobs, which pose no threat at all. Yaaaaawwwnnn...

Sure there are people who do this the very first time, and they need to learn how everything functions. But for me? Just plain boring. 

Then there is this other feeling i had a thousand times before. The feeling, that nothing i do has a point (,before reaching the holy "endgame") Learning how to actually play well has no point, because there are no treats. Learning tradeskills has no point, reading questtexts has no point, because i dont have a choice anyway, other then to not accept the quest. And so on, and so on...

Most MMOs feature this concept, that he player is the hero. You kill 20 deamon rats of hell, and the NPC says, you ended this plague and saved the world. Well, hey wait! There are still hundres of them behind us and i can actually see others kill them too! Some might say, that this is a mmo, and has to be done that way, but i believe i want a little more realistic writing. For me i would be more immersive, if the NPC said "Hey, welcome on the battlefield, see the others killing the deamon rats? There are too many, we need you to do the same and help the others."

Heroism is not determined by the number of enemys you can kill; you can be a hero amongst others; you dont need to save the world to feel like a hero.

Sorry for this little OT adventure into why i think most mmos these days suck. 

Originally posted by Alasti

I am 39 years old and have been playing MMO's since the days of Ultima Online, Everquest 1, and Asheron's Call (3 of my top 5 all time favorite games...MMO or otherwise).  Anyway...

I just cant seem to "get into" mmo's any more and I hate it!  I mean I really hate that I can't immerse myself into MMO's like I once did. I have played almost all of the "popular" mmo's: EQ1, EQ2, UO, Vanguard, DAoC, WoW, etc.   I have tried playing the new games (Rift, etc.) as well as re-living the old ones (AC, Everquest, Vanguard, etc.) and I just don't have that incessant "pull" to keep playing.  Every game is the exact same in that there is somewhat of a grind doing traditional quests or killing creatures for experience.  I am sick of doing that...I mean I have killed like 1,000,000,000,000 wolves/skeletons accross more worlds than I can even remember.  When will someone create something completely new?  Something different?  Something completely outside the box we all have become accustomed to?  I mean to be honest, I don't have ANY idea what I'm even saying because what I am asking for does not exist yet.... (as far as I know).

 

Anyway....I am aware this is a rant, and am not sure even why I am writing this, but I do know that it saddens me that there isn't something out there that will pull me in like the games of old used to when they were new and I wasn't burnt out on killing ogres and zombies.

 

 

I wish you bud. I think it's just that we've played RPG's to death, so until someone adds some substantial new ways to play RPG's, we'll have the "been there, done that" feeling.

It's not just MMORPG's I'm not having fun with anymore, it's SRPG's too. It's all the same, either spam a button to attack, or press heys on a hotbar. Invest points into your choice of 3 trees to specialize. Collect and do quests. How long have we been doing this same exact thing, almost day in and day out?

Bioware evolved the genre when they added fully voiced dialogue + a cimematic experience, while giving people choices in how the story plays out. Since then, what significant feature has been introduced in the RPG genre?

So that's just it, whether I go back and play DAoC, or I play some new MMORPG or RPG, I have that "been there, done that 1mill times" feeling.

I hate it too.

I'm trying to set my sights on sandbox/UO/EvE type of mmorgps. Sure excited by GW2, but more for some frolics, that sort of deep immersion much more the former.

However, there's cool things out there besides mmos, just seems mmorpgs suffer from 'Normal Problems Games Have'^n

Eg (watch the vid):

http://unepicgame.com/en/game.html

& quality field:

http://www.igf.com/audience.php

At the time when Asheron's call 2 shut down end of 2005, i comepletedly had with mmo's i was at same point as you where right now, totally burned out.

I first tried WoW be couse my gaming friends ask me to join them but i did not like WoW at all.

Then FFXI man that game was even more terible then WoW.

My next attemp was Age of Conan when it launched i quit after 2 months and most of time i was subbed in those two months i hated it and could not bring myself to play it AWEFUL mmo, i was still burned out also it seems.

Then in feb 2009 i played beta and started Darkfall i have played it for 2 years had for 1.8 years fun but last few months i played it i was bored becouse empty server(EU-1) now i am sinds then burned out again and still am:(

But i play sinds mid 90's solo RPGs between mmo,s or sometimes during my mmo times still love them my last is Skyrim.

I hope one day i can find my mmo i enjoy again but for now i only visit websites like this.

Im bit older then you so maybe age have something to do with it i dunno hehe.

Ive btw not played many mmo's over all these years im rather selective.

I think solo games for me will keep my interest for now.

Well I'm glad to know its not just me.  I also am having the same "feeling" about the majority of RPG's in general.  Maybe I'm just burnt out on games.  I sit at my computer each night now either: perusing my old single player games, hoping one will magically "grab me" and inspire me to reinstall and play, or searching the internet for inspiration to go back to an old MMO, or even look to this site for inspiration for whats upcoming.... 

Nothing grabs me....

I like Ultima IV therefore im not a gamer,im a gamergod.

gamer doesnt mean anything nowadays.winning doesnt mean anything nowadays,losing doesnt mean anything nowadays,itsnot gaming its something else.

Well the older games did not generally say "chosen one save the world from all of these rats." 

You were more dropped in (or outside of!) town and whether or not you decided to talk to an NPC who did not have an ! over their head to find out they had a rat problem you got exp for killing rats.

If you did talk to the npc you got slightly more exp and a rusty item. 

There was no "You are great."  If anything you were a lowbie annoyance who does the little tasks around.

----

One game that really gave you the feeling of you are a lowbie worthless pile was everquest 2 on the evil side at launch.

You got to town and you got talked down to by the buerocrat who bedgrudgingly gave you a tiny one room shack that wouldnt pass an inspection. 

Originally posted by Alasti

Well I'm glad to know its not just me.  I also am having the same "feeling" about the majority of RPG's in general.  Maybe I'm just burnt out on games.  I sit at my computer each night now either: perusing my old single player games, hoping one will magically "grab me" and inspire me to reinstall and play, or searching the internet for inspiration to go back to an old MMO, or even look to this site for inspiration for whats upcoming.... 

Nothing grabs me....

That makes me feel better, at least I am not the only one that sits at my computer desk looking through the old games folder trying to find a game to "Grab me".

Actually that would make for an interesting start -- you get kicked out of town for having a character class.  The guards are now KOS -- find your way.

I mean being a thief of some races in say EQ1 or a necromancer erudite meant starting outside the city albeit in an enclave.

Having not even an enclave -- just well if you go 30 miles in that direction you will find your first real questor..... once you get outside the direct influence of the kingdom....

Originally posted by Alasti

I am 39 years old and have been playing MMO's since the days of Ultima Online, Everquest 1, and Asheron's Call (3 of my top 5 all time favorite games...MMO or otherwise).  Anyway...

I just cant seem to "get into" mmo's any more and I hate it!  I mean I really hate that I can't immerse myself into MMO's like I once did. I have played almost all of the "popular" mmo's: EQ1, EQ2, UO, Vanguard, DAoC, WoW, etc.   I have tried playing the new games (Rift, etc.) as well as re-living the old ones (AC, Everquest, Vanguard, etc.) and I just don't have that incessant "pull" to keep playing.  Every game is the exact same in that there is somewhat of a grind doing traditional quests or killing creatures for experience.  I am sick of doing that...I mean I have killed like 1,000,000,000,000 wolves/skeletons accross more worlds than I can even remember.  When will someone create something completely new?  Something different?  Something completely outside the box we all have become accustomed to?  I mean to be honest, I don't have ANY idea what I'm even saying because what I am asking for does not exist yet.... (as far as I know).

 

Anyway....I am aware this is a rant, and am not sure even why I am writing this, but I do know that it saddens me that there isn't something out there that will pull me in like the games of old used to when they were new and I wasn't burnt out on killing ogres and zombies.

Same here:  41 years old "gamer" like you and played almost all the ones you did and now back to wow waiting on GW2/TSW/TERA......will probably try them all and see which one I like the most.....you like myself are looking for something maybe we cant describe but will know it when we play it...

 

keep up the search, that game will come along soon enough

 

 

The next step for RPG's will hopefully be the decision on developers' parts to nix the current quest system that is used by 99% of RPGs. Developers can then resume what was started decades ago.... Creating worlds.

RPG's at their core are fueled by the depth of possibilities and choices. D&D was a near limitless tool for the imagination. You could concoct whatever scenario or world you wanted as long as you had the drive and creativity to do it. RPGs' defining difference over other styles of game is the potential variety and depth of options available while keeping the experience personal. Other genre's might give you plenty of options and depth such as strategy games but what makes RPG's unique is that the game is played from a 'ground level' perspective that you identify with on a personal level. Hence, playing a role.

Over time developers have by and large slowly de emphazised this unique aspect of RPG's. Instead they have been putting more and more emphasis on the accumulation of numbers along a pre-defined path. It's now all about vertical, or arbitrary, progression which only matters in a very limited point of view; ie. expressing physical dominance over virtual entities. It's the equivalent of strictly using electricity to only produce light, ignoring the fact that it can do a trillion other more beneficial and amazing things. Not that light isn't interesting, but I digress....

Basically, I think it really does just come down to money. The people that facilitate the process of a game becoming a product have been digging their mitts deeper and deeper into the development of games over time. We're left with a lot of games' development being influenced more by executives, who let greed and conformity dominate their decisions, than by the game's actual creators.

Part of the reason for this is that executives have gotten very adept at coaxing developers into doing what they want them to by way of passive-aggressive fear induction (exaggerations pertaining to money, time, quality, appeal etc.). They basically get developers into a situation where they have no choice but to submit in the face of overwhelming stress and limitations. It's all a ploy to maximize profits (at the expense of game enjoyment). I assure you the big companies can afford to properly fund excellent and original games consistently if the people at the top weren't so adamant on defining themselves by their accumulation of excess wealth. Actually this striving for excess is causing many more severe problems in the world at large than video games, but that's another discussion entirely.

Originally posted by Indol

The next step for RPG's will hopefully be the decision on developers' parts to nix the current quest system that is used by 99% of RPGs. Developers can then resume what was started decades ago.... Creating worlds.

 

RPG's at their core are fueled by the depth of possibilities and choices. D&D was a near limitless tool for the imagination. You could concoct whatever scenario or world you wanted as long as you had the drive and creativity to do it. RPGs' defining difference over other styles of game is the potential variety and depth of options available while keeping the experience personal. Other genre's might give you plenty of options and depth such as strategy games but what makes RPG's unique is that the game is played from a 'ground level' perspective that you identify with on a personal level. Hence, playing a role.

 

Over time developers have by and large slowly de emphazised this unique aspect of RPG's. Instead they have been putting more and more emphasis on the accumulation of numbers along a pre-defined path. It's now all about vertical, or arbitrary, progression which only matters in a very limited point of view; ie. expressing physical dominance over virtual entities. It's the equivalent of strictly using electricity to only produce light, ignoring the fact that it can do a trillion other more beneficial and amazing things. Not that light isn't interesting, but I digress....

 

Basically, I think it really does just come down to money. The people that facilitate the process of a game becoming a product have been digging their mitts deeper and deeper into the development of games over time. We're left with a lot of games' development being influenced more by executives, who let greed and conformity dominate their decisions, than by the game's actual creators.

 

Part of the reason for this is that executives have gotten very adept at coaxing developers into doing what they want them to by way of passive-aggressive fear induction (exaggerations pertaining to money, time, quality, appeal etc.). They basically get developers into a situation where they have no choice but to submit in the face of overwhelming stress and limitations. It's all a ploy to maximize profits (at the expense of game enjoyment). I assure you the big publishers can easily afford to properly fund excellent and original games consistently if the people at the top weren't so adamant on defining themselves by their accumulation of excess wealth. Actually this striving for excess is causing many more severe problems in the world at large than video games, but that's another discussion entirely.

And why?

Because DnD.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

---

Originally posted by Ujirik
I think that everybody will reach that point eventually. It's mostly because you've experienced all the standards and now know what you want from a game. In my opinion, there's really only two options left when you reach this point in gaming: pursue it or give up. You can either attempt to learn one of the various programming languages or just give up and hope that somebody will eventually make your desired game. There's really nothing wrong with waiting and learning is easier said than done, but it's worth a shot. You've played the games and have developed a passion for the genre. Isn't it about time to try your hand at creating something?
Anyway, dramatic nonsense aside, it's perfectly normal to get burned out. Something new will come around and spark your interest eventually, but it's probably a good idea to try something else until then.

---

 

Exactly what i've decided to do. I see the indie devs about and i think "ok, just what qualifies them to even try making an MMO? What's on their CV?". The answer is usually not alot and certainly nothing to put me in the shade. When i see the models, the textures, the animations, the GUI, the piss poor coding, i always ask "why didn't they do xyz?"

Answer is they can't. 9/10 they seem to be people who learnt C++ at college and that's it. You see this when all patches and updates are coding ones, rather than anything tangible. Coders usually have a very narrowly focussed skillset, you rarely get a creative programmer, you cannot have that mindset to be a good one, it's like being an accountant.

So, from now i'll be learning a new script language and working with a new engine. I have spent 2 years not doing alot and trying half-assed games, in that time i could have created something half-decent, so i'm going to put it to the test :)

This is very offensive. Great coders are creative. Just because some people are dumb code monkeys doesn't make the rest of us non creative.

I have to agree here. Pigeon-holing people is a very un-creative way to think. :)

It brings to mind a little story the head of the Chemistry Dept told, back when I was in college. At a faculty meeting, one of the history professors made a comment about scientists, callng them narrow-minded and knowledgable only about their field. Dr. Razniak replied to the professor:

"I just finshed reading a treatise on the Civil War. When's the last time you picked up a book having to do with any scientific study?"

The history professor had nothing to say about that.

Anyone who knew Dr. Razniak, at all, would know better than to say something like that. Many of the science fiction writers have been, and are, working physicists. Just about every writer you've ever read was or is a professional in some other career.

As far as "patches and updates" - games these days are made up of millions of lines of code. Most people can't code because they don't have the patience and ability to break what they want to do into little steps. You take a program, particularly a large one, and throw it into an environment with a bunch of others you didn't write (someone else's computer, for example) and guess what, unexpected things can happen.

Personally, I make enough typing mistakes in a forum post to understand that someone writing code might make some that they miss before their work is released. I go back and check what I type, so I almost always catch errors, but on occasion something still gets through. There is no way I'm going to call a programmer poor at what he does because something needs to be patched after it's released.

It's insane to think that everything is always going to work perfectly in a game. Even if the coding is perfect, there are too many variables to take into account. Geniuses can't do it, never mind the average game developer.

I'm all for a person with passion learning to code and develop the kind of game he wants to play, but there's a reason very few people do it: it takes dedication, a willingness to learn what you need to learn, put what you think you want down on paper, and turn that into a working game. It takes thousands of hours of focused effort, and that alone takes more discipline than most people will ever think about actually committing to, much less accomplishing. It takes partnership with people who can do the same, because it simply takes too long for one person to make an MMOG sized game. We already have a serious and problematical lag between the start of a game's developement and the technology that is available when it is released. Something that took 3-5 years for a team to develop will take 6-20 years for one person, even a very gifted and talented person.

While it's entirely possible that you have lost your taste for gaming (I would never say "outgrown"), I tend to agree with others that you didn't change so much as the games have changed.  Many of us who hang out on this website feel the same way.  In fact a lot of us hang out here because we are waiting for something fun to come along.

SWTOR is the perfect illustration of the problem.  Many of us have been complaining about these games being lifeless clones for a long time now, and SWTOR has become a perfect example of what is wrong with the genre in my opinion.  Bioware shamelessly created a game that was supposed to play a lot like the "touchstone" (their words) WoW, but falls very short of that goal.  

Now I say this from the perspective of someone who is sick and tired of the same old themepark games.  Some people may find SWTOR new and fresh for them and have a blast there.  I say good for them.  For many of us who have been around a while, this type of game has become beyond stale, and we want something new and more complex.  There are some interesting things coming now, as we all know, but we will have to wait and see how it pans out.  GW2 is looking great, TSW looks very interesting, ArchAge is the one I am most interested in trying because I prefer more sandbox in my games.  There are some cool indy projects coming too.

Take a break.  If you like shooters, go get a beta key for Tribes: Ascend.  It's a friggin' blast and serves as a nice distraction while we wait for something new here.  I can't join a current  MMO at this point, because I know I will be playing one of the new games coming soon. 

Originally posted by pb1285n
I really don't feel like MMOs have been dumbed down. In fact I think the problem with MMOs is that they haven't changed enough. They've been giving us the same thing since Ultima Online. Yes games have become more accessible, but the core gameplay is pretty much the same.

Whether this is the fault of developers, or restriction of the current technology remains to be seen. I really hope one day we get a game that turns the MMO genre on its head, but I don't expect that anytime soon.

And what exactly would constitute turning the genre on its head?

Originally posted by AdamTM

And why?

Because DnD.

What i'm saying is, compared to what RPG's began as and can be, they are generally very limited in scope and breadth today. I'm certainly not saying video game RPG's can replicate pen and paper ones, but we can at least strive for that level of openness and creativity.

Yes, D&D certainly had combat. But it also had a multitude of other facets to it that mattered equally or more. Combat was not the thing in which everything revolved. It was just one aspect of the whole.

Even so, the possibilities for combat in D&D made it vastly more creative and exciting than pressing 1,2,3,4 on a keyboard while fighting back another yawn. The story, the possibilities, the interactions with other players, the ingenuity you can employ, the importance of your actions and the focus on group enjoyment all make up what an RPG has the ability to be.

What a lot of RPG players have been seeing for quite awhile now is the near industry-wide neglect of almost all non-combat, non-accumulation aspects of the RPG. Yes, there are games that place importance on the story and setting but not on an open-ended story and place in which you can contribute to. RPG's at their best offer as many choices to players as possible while still retaining a system and structure.

Surely these newer mmo's cannot be seen as being anywhere NEAR the extent to which RPG's can go. They're actively less open and 'rpg' than the original mmo's after all.

Of course, actually making a game these days costs more than a fortune even when it's completely combat-centric, much less filled to the brim with meaningful choices so this could all just be wishful thinking in reality.

I know how you feel.  I'm going back to other hobbies.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, "I didn't leave the mmorpg genre, the genre left me".

Originally posted by Indol

Originally posted by AdamTM

And why?

Because DnD.

 

What i'm saying is, compared to what RPG's began as and can be, they are generally very limited in scope and breadth today. I'm certainly not saying video game RPG's can replicate pen and paper ones, but we can at least strive for that level of openness and creativity.

 

Yes, D&D certainly had combat. But it also had a multitude of other facets to it that mattered equally or more. Combat was not the thing in which everything revolved. It was just one aspect of the whole.

Even so, the possibilities for combat in D&D made it vastly more creative and exciting than pressing 1,2,3,4 on a keyboard while fighting back another yawn. The story, the possibilities, the interactions with other players, the ingenuity you can employ, the importance of your actions and the focus on group enjoyment all make up what an RPG has the ability to be.

 

What a lot of RPG players have been seeing for quite awhile now is the near industry-wide neglect of almost all non-combat, non-accumulation aspects of the RPG. Yes, there are games that place importance on the story and setting but not on an open-ended story and place in which you can contribute to. RPG's at their best offer as many choices to players as possible while still retaining a system and structure.

 

Surely these newer mmo's cannot be seen as being anywhere NEAR the extent to which RPG's can go. They're actively less open and 'rpg' than the original mmo's after all.

Of course, actually making a game these days costs more than a fortune even when it's completely combat-centric, much less filled to the brim with meaningful choices so this could all just be wishful thinking in reality.

Someone will take advantage of the minecraft factor and apply it to an MMO one of these days, not sure who or when but it will happen. Just gotta be patient I guess... Even though the a "MMO Minecraft" isn't the final solution, it would be leaps and bounds better than anything else out there. If someone were to take the minecraft formula and build on it, making it more in depth with updated graphics and all that jazz, including MMO format , I have a feeling that would make a home for many stray sandboxers.