Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Khaeros

The kind of players that would utilize spreadsheets in EvE are probably the same kind of people who would use them or other programs to min/max their characters in any other MMO, anyway  (WoW's Rawr, Rift's ACT plugin, BiS lists, etc).

I use spreadsheets in nearly everything, and not necessarily to min/max.  I have a spreadsheet for Super Mario World, one for Mega Man X, several of them for Tecmo Super Bowl, etc.  When I want to sort something, I use a spreadsheet.  When I want to spell check a document, I use a spreadsheet for it.  Sometimes even when I want to do something where a sane person would use a real computer programming language, I still use a spreadsheet.

Urban Muller and Bjarne Stroustrup are turning over in their graves. Also all database programmers ever.

A lot of it is a question of what you want to do.  If it's something that Excel can readily handle, then the advantage of Excel over something like C++ or Java is that it's easier to debug, because it shows you all of the internal steps at once and you don't have to stop to compile and run it.  Obviously, there are a lot of things that a real programming language can handle and Excel really can't.

Incidentally, the purpose of my Mega Man X spreadsheet is to generate passwords.  You check off which items you want to have and which ones you don't, and it generates a password that gives you exactly what you want.

I guess I should have emphasized the database part more. I tried to make an mmorts space game with a database set up like a spreadsheet and people on coding sites went crazy. One guy posted a video of him reading my post and literally crying.

Originally posted by sullivanj69

5. Levels:  the point of levels is to drag out character advancement so people pay a subscription fee longer or buy convenience items from cash shops.  I really fail to see any positives from a level mechanic that couldn't be accomplished better from a well implemented skill customization mechanic. 

4. Factions: Faction based pvp is always bad and restricts games in a way to make them less fun.  You can't kill the annoying guy from your own faction that is bothering you, but you are instead herded towards killing some other guy who might otherwise be your friend.  Guilds have little power in a faction based pvp system because they are a slave to the npc controlled faction.

3. Quests:  Quests in mmorpg's are awful.  Read some annoying text or listen to some drivel being spoken in SWTOR and then go kill 10 wolves or pick 10 flowers.  So.  Lame.  There shouldn't be quests every 10 feet, a quest should be some long drawn out process that challenging and cryptic.  But these days everything is so dumbed down and repetitive.

2. Gear Treadmill:  Why is the point of nearly every mmorpg seem to be getting better gear?  Why do you need to get better gear?  To kill monsters?  To get better gear?  No thanks. 

1. Lack of Economy:  Without mechanics in place to destroy/loot equipment  there is no need for crafters.  Crafting is an illusion in 99% of mmorpgs.  The sole purpose of a crafter is to make crappy gear for n00bs or to become a stepping stone for converting raid loot into an actual usuable item.  This is because people will get better gear than a crafter can make and then will never need to buy a replacement.  This is not an economy, it is an illusion. 

 I generally try not to advertise Guild Wars 2 in the pub (but since everyone was recommending Eve I thought I'd join in).  I think it's a game that the OP should check out.  On the surface it might look like just another generic themepark, but if you look closer, I think you'll find it addresses a lot of the OP's underlying concerns, but not quite in the way the OP is imagining.

I'll try to briefly say why I feel this way.

5)  There are levels but they're de-emphasized.  The leveling curve flattens out quickly so it's not a grind.  There's no subscription (Buy to Play) so no incentive to artificially stretch out the content.  There is a shop but it's not Pay to Win.  The game also automentors you down when you do lower level content (so you'll be strong but not 1-shotting everything).  This lets you replay the entire game at any time or play with friends regardless of level.

4)  The open world is entirely PVE and completely factionless and cooperative.  Other players can never hurt you.  However there is "World PVP" but it's set in a separate set of zones where its everyone from your server against two other servers.  There are keeps in PVP for guilds to take over.

3)  There are no quests in the open world of GW2.  There are Dynamic Events which everyone in the area can participate in and cooperate and all be rewarded.  They persistently affect the world and chain different ways on success or failure.  There is also a Personal Story for each character, which is like one huge epic questline for each character that goes from leaving their city for the first time to facing an elder dragon at the end.

2&1)  No gear treadmill.  Max statistical gear will be easy to achieve, and then after that people can try to get vanity skins from a variety of different sources, including crafting.  There are other ways to progress your character but its mostly horizontal (more choices to load your limited skillbar with) or achievements, titles, vanity stuff.  Emphasis is on playing whatever you find fun, not on the carrot at the end.

TL:DR  Not exactly what you're looking for, but might interest you all the same.  This is a good place to start.  http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/337506/Guild-Wars-2-Mass-info-for-the-uninitiated.html

The top five problems with modern MMOs are all the same: I was initially attracted to MMOs because they were games that you played with thousands of other people, and the game didn't end.  Now MMOs are games you play alone or with a couple people for a few months then quickly run out of things to do then you move on to something else.

I am enjoying TOR right now but I doubt it's a game I will still be playing in six months, just like every new MMO I've tried in the last seven years.

Originally posted by sullivanj69

5. Levels:  the point of levels is to drag out character advancement so people pay a subscription fee longer or buy convenience items from cash shops.  I really fail to see any positives from a level mechanic that couldn't be accomplished better from a well implemented skill customization mechanic. 

4. Factions: Faction based pvp is always bad and restricts games in a way to make them less fun.  You can't kill the annoying guy from your own faction that is bothering you, but you are instead herded towards killing some other guy who might otherwise be your friend.  Guilds have little power in a faction based pvp system because they are a slave to the npc controlled faction.

3. Quests:  Quests in mmorpg's are awful.  Read some annoying text or listen to some drivel being spoken in SWTOR and then go kill 10 wolves or pick 10 flowers.  So.  Lame.  There shouldn't be quests every 10 feet, a quest should be some long drawn out process that challenging and cryptic.  But these days everything is so dumbed down and repetitive.

2. Gear Treadmill:  Why is the point of nearly every mmorpg seem to be getting better gear?  Why do you need to get better gear?  To kill monsters?  To get better gear?  No thanks. 

1. Lack of Economy:  Without mechanics in place to destroy/loot equipment  there is no need for crafters.  Crafting is an illusion in 99% of mmorpgs.  The sole purpose of a crafter is to make crappy gear for n00bs or to become a stepping stone for converting raid loot into an actual usuable item.  This is because people will get better gear than a crafter can make and then will never need to buy a replacement.  This is not an economy, it is an illusion. 

   So if these aren't things you like to do, why play an mmorpg? Maybe a MOBA or MOFPS is more your style of genre. Don't get me wrong, I do like skill based character advancement systems better then leveling based systems, or even hybrid skill/leveling systems. I just don't see them usually in mmorpgs, only on table top gaming like GURPS, Runequest etc for skill based systems or Rolemaster for a skill/level based hybrid system.

  As to the rest, what do you suggest to improve? I like death penalty systems as well as item loss and chance of breakage of gear through use plus mechanics to wear down gear so that if you don't keep it repaired that it increases the chance of an item breaking through usage. Anyhow just a few things that come to mind, but honestly I just don't ponder if you are playing the wrong genre of game.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Playing as a spaceship is too impersonal. Also, "Spreadsheets in Space".

Typical posters don't understand the consequences of their complaints. They say I don't like this and fail to propose an alternative system that would actually work.

 Agreed on the whole "spaceship is too impersonal" opinon in regards to EvE. I need more then that for mmorpg play. As to the second point, I also pointed this out to the OP, he complains but really doesn't offer alternatives. I think he is playing the wrong genre of game, maybe a MOBA or MOFPS would be more his style.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I keep thinking, why isn't the OP playing EVE, it has everything he want's (or rather, doesn't have any of the things he abhors)

 

 The problem with recommending EVE to people who are dissatisified with current theme park MMORPGs is that EVE is essentailly an entirely different genre of game.  Yes, it does not suffer from any of the problems the OP mentioned, but it also plays ENTIRELY different from a "typical" MMORPG.

I played EVE very shortly, and just couldn't get into it.  It had nothing to do with any "problems" with the game, it was just that I didn't find it at all appealing.  Stare at the screen for hours while my ship shoots a rock with a laser beam?  No thanks.

Then the combat...issue and order and then watch the screen as my ship flies around and fights another ship?  No thanks, it felt like I was playing an RTS game with one unit...

Anyway, I'm not saying that EVE is bad, I know a lot of people are into it, and that's great.  I'm just saying that you can't really expect someone who likes games like WoW and EQ to immediately like EVE just because it's classified as an MMORPG.

Personally, I think Skyrim is far more similar to WoW than EVE is, even though Skyrim and WoW are "classified" as two different genres and EVE is in the same genre.

Originally posted by Timeout77

The good thing here is that The OP actually has a game to play. And We Even have an Avatar these days in EvE. We can walk all the way from our spaceship to our comfy captains quarters...

So the Impersonal space ship comment dosent apply anymore lolz.. But seriously OP EvE is all those things that you ask for.. it has none of the things you dont like...

  When I can land on planets and stroll around them with my avatar I'll seriously consider your point. Don't get me wrong, EvE does a lot of things right that a lot of other games do not. It just is missing that one element for me. I can't get together with others and go down planet side or hang out together in a space station shooting the crap. It is a great game in my opinion just not for me. Though I think that Goblinworks might be onto something for a fantasy version of some of the similar concepts that CCP does well. We shall see.

He should really play Eve, its so new player friendly. 

/laughs to himself

Originally posted by sullivanj69

1. Lack of Economy:  Without mechanics in place to destroy/loot equipment  there is no need for crafters.  Crafting is an illusion in 99% of mmorpgs.  The sole purpose of a crafter is to make crappy gear for n00bs or to become a stepping stone for converting raid loot into an actual usuable item.  This is because people will get better gear than a crafter can make and then will never need to buy a replacement.  This is not an economy, it is an illusion. 

Why is this a problem for a COMBAT-centric game?

Originally posted by Quizzical

 As Uncharted Waters Online demonstrates, people look up how to beat it on the wiki.  Even though the English-language wiki doesn't say, and they have to check the Japanese and/or Chinese wiki.

 

Good content is good content even if you look it up on the wiki.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Kyleran

I keep thinking, why isn't the OP playing EVE, it has everything he want's (or rather, doesn't have any of the things he abhors)

 

Maybe what he really wants to play is........The forum drama game.  Nobody wins.

People should just read this:

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/355/entry-2250155-why-you-shouldnt-be-making-an-mmo/

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Kyleran

I keep thinking, why isn't the OP playing EVE, it has everything he want's (or rather, doesn't have any of the things he abhors)

 

Maybe what he really wants to play is........The forum drama game.  Nobody wins.

 

People should just read this:

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/355/entry-2250155-why-you-shouldnt-be-making-an-mmo/

In forum PvP players win, but no full loot so its never over. We need it so that if you win a fight in forum PvP the other guys account gets deleted? Or would that drive people away? Maybe we should just block their log in for some hours?

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Kyleran

I keep thinking, why isn't the OP playing EVE, it has everything he want's (or rather, doesn't have any of the things he abhors)

 

Maybe what he really wants to play is........The forum drama game.  Nobody wins.

 

People should just read this:

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/355/entry-2250155-why-you-shouldnt-be-making-an-mmo/

Especially the replyes :)

:)

Originally posted by sullivanj69

5. Levels:  the point of levels is to drag out character advancement so people pay a subscription fee longer or buy convenience items from cash shops.  I really fail to see any positives from a level mechanic that couldn't be accomplished better from a well implemented skill customization mechanic. 

4. Factions: Faction based pvp is always bad and restricts games in a way to make them less fun.  You can't kill the annoying guy from your own faction that is bothering you, but you are instead herded towards killing some other guy who might otherwise be your friend.  Guilds have little power in a faction based pvp system because they are a slave to the npc controlled faction.

3. Quests:  Quests in mmorpg's are awful.  Read some annoying text or listen to some drivel being spoken in SWTOR and then go kill 10 wolves or pick 10 flowers.  So.  Lame.  There shouldn't be quests every 10 feet, a quest should be some long drawn out process that challenging and cryptic.  But these days everything is so dumbed down and repetitive.

2. Gear Treadmill:  Why is the point of nearly every mmorpg seem to be getting better gear?  Why do you need to get better gear?  To kill monsters?  To get better gear?  No thanks. 

1. Lack of Economy:  Without mechanics in place to destroy/loot equipment  there is no need for crafters.  Crafting is an illusion in 99% of mmorpgs.  The sole purpose of a crafter is to make crappy gear for n00bs or to become a stepping stone for converting raid loot into an actual usuable item.  This is because people will get better gear than a crafter can make and then will never need to buy a replacement.  This is not an economy, it is an illusion. 

You sound like you just dont like MMOs period.

5. Levels: The point of levels is to provide a method of advancement. They are NOT to "drag out character advancement". Leveling has always merely been a staple of RPG progression, which long predates both online RPGs and video game RPGs.

4. Factions: You're upset because you can't kill a guy that's annoying you? You realize the opposite would mean people could kill you for no reason at all. I'll bet that would be even more annoying, whouldnt it?

3. Quests: Quests are there to give you things to do. I'll agree that many quests today are trite and uninteresting, but not EVERY quest needs to be a grand adventure. Especially when you're just starting out. Start small and work your way up. Instant gratification is easily one of the most destructive things to the industry today.

2. Gear Treadmill: Why not? Just like in real life, in the game we strive to have nice things. If you have everything you could ever want, what more is there to look forward to? I don't believe endgame should be JUST about gear grinding, but its nice to have aspirations.

1. Lack of Economy: Who says equipment has to be the only thing that can be crafted? Furniture and decorations for your mog house, food, reagents for certain abilities (ninja tools), potions, and materials for other crafts, were all big sellers that were crafted in Final Fantasy XI. The real problem with crafting is that so many games make it incredibly fast to level up, and pigeonhole players into selecting only one craft. Materials are also grossly too easy to acquire in great bulk.

Also, whats wrong with noobs having access to decent equipment if they can afford it? Everything's not just about the endgame. People should try taking a breath and enjoying the ride sometime. They just might enjoy it.

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Kyleran

I keep thinking, why isn't the OP playing EVE, it has everything he want's (or rather, doesn't have any of the things he abhors)

 

Maybe what he really wants to play is........The forum drama game.  Nobody wins.

 

People should just read this:

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/355/entry-2250155-why-you-shouldnt-be-making-an-mmo/

Especially the replyes :)

:)

Damn...now I feel bad about that long reply I gave. Had to write it in bits and pieces a little at a time because I'm at work.

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Quizzical

 As Uncharted Waters Online demonstrates, people look up how to beat it on the wiki.  Even though the English-language wiki doesn't say, and they have to check the Japanese and/or Chinese wiki.

 

Good content is good content even if you look it up on the wiki.

Flame on!

:)

I do like how Uncharted Waters Online does adventuring quests.  A lot of them make you talk to multiple NPCs while gathering information.  They'll contradict each other, insult each other, argue with each other, and give you wrong information (which gets corrected by a later NPC) along the way.  They wander way off topic a lot.  They'll tell stories a piece at a time, then make you sail to another port to find the rest of the story.  And the quests make you read all of the quest text, and then think about where to go next.

The problem is that there are occasionally things lost in translation.  I once had a quest tell me to go to the "Caribbean", when it really meant "Karibib" (Namibia).  I've seen multiple quests say "Calcutta" to mean "Kolkata" (which is a different name for the same city in real life), and also multiple quests say "Calcutta" to mean "Calicut", which is a different city entirely.

Originally posted by sullivanj69

5. Levels:  the point of levels is to drag out character advancement so people pay a subscription fee longer or buy convenience items from cash shops.  I really fail to see any positives from a level mechanic that couldn't be accomplished better from a well implemented skill customization mechanic. 

4. Factions: Faction based pvp is always bad and restricts games in a way to make them less fun.  You can't kill the annoying guy from your own faction that is bothering you, but you are instead herded towards killing some other guy who might otherwise be your friend.  Guilds have little power in a faction based pvp system because they are a slave to the npc controlled faction.

3. Quests:  Quests in mmorpg's are awful.  Read some annoying text or listen to some drivel being spoken in SWTOR and then go kill 10 wolves or pick 10 flowers.  So.  Lame.  There shouldn't be quests every 10 feet, a quest should be some long drawn out process that challenging and cryptic.  But these days everything is so dumbed down and repetitive.

2. Gear Treadmill:  Why is the point of nearly every mmorpg seem to be getting better gear?  Why do you need to get better gear?  To kill monsters?  To get better gear?  No thanks. 

1. Lack of Economy:  Without mechanics in place to destroy/loot equipment  there is no need for crafters.  Crafting is an illusion in 99% of mmorpgs.  The sole purpose of a crafter is to make crappy gear for n00bs or to become a stepping stone for converting raid loot into an actual usuable item.  This is because people will get better gear than a crafter can make and then will never need to buy a replacement.  This is not an economy, it is an illusion. 

The problem is that your playing mmoRPG games.  Get yourself a good FPS then one of those sims games.  Problem solved. 

Its not the MMORPG thats broke...your just playing a game type that you dislike. 

This is the exact reason i dont go into FPS games then complain about the lack of levels and raiding. I choose to just steer clear of them (other than some quick side fun...never lasts though) rather than proclaiming that FPS games are all broke since they lack raiding and quests and levels and such.

 Its like you are telling us that the cake is disgusting and done wrong...that it should have a thin and flakey pastry outside then should be filled with a sweet fruit filling...im trying to tell you there is an invention to address those concerns called pie and should be right up your alley..

Have you..or the people who agree with you...even tried looking for another type of game that already addesses these glaring problems by not including them in the game?

Originally posted by Crunchy221

 

The problem is that your playing mmoRPG games.  Get yourself a good FPS then one of those sims games.  Problem solved. 

Its not the MMORPG thats broke...your just playing a game type that you dislike. 

This is the exact reason i dont go into FPS games then complain about the lack of levels and raiding. I choose to just steer clear of them (other than some quick side fun...never lasts though) rather than proclaiming that FPS games are all broke since they lack raiding and quests and levels and such.

 

Because the only difference between MMORPGs and first person shooters is stuff like grinding and questing?  Don't you think that maybe the difference between a first person perspective matters and a camera view that lets you actually see what is going on makes a difference, too?

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Crunchy221

 

The problem is that your playing mmoRPG games.  Get yourself a good FPS then one of those sims games.  Problem solved. 

Its not the MMORPG thats broke...your just playing a game type that you dislike. 

This is the exact reason i dont go into FPS games then complain about the lack of levels and raiding. I choose to just steer clear of them (other than some quick side fun...never lasts though) rather than proclaiming that FPS games are all broke since they lack raiding and quests and levels and such.

 

Because the only difference between MMORPGs and first person shooters is stuff like grinding and questing?  Don't you think that maybe the difference between a first person perspective matters and a camera view that lets you actually see what is going on makes a difference, too?

Good point, stupid example, even "FPS" games in many cases offer a third person view :)

One of the main differences IMO is the focus on the character(s) and his place in the game world, but there are surely more.

Flame on!

:)

5 problems with modern mmorpgs

1. They are trying to emulate other genres
2. Entitled generation
3. They have "endings"
4. little to no player created content
5. esport infestation