Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

The single player Game of Thrones is one of the worst games I have ever bought, it was borning and just plan bad.

I want nothing to do with an MMO based on the Game of Thrones after playing that single player game.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

 Sad when people confuse "grown-up" to mean "let's show some T&A and slap a mature sticker on it".  AoC seems to have been more targeted towards the 13 -17 male teen crowd.

Originally posted by DeaconX

Did you guys know BioWare was almost made a Game of Thrones mmorpg before they made the final decision to go with SWTOR?

 

I wonder how the game would have been different... or if we'd pretty much have a Game of Thrones WoW clone...

 It would have been just the same exact fantasy themed and Bioware would be paying a different fat man with a white beard for licensing fees.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Dominions 3! Do you have the CBM installed?

Originally posted by Cembrye

I am not sure where I read this, but I believe George R. Martin has vowed to never allow GOT to be made into a MMORPG.  I suspect he cares too much about his consequence/choice driven world to allow it to be turned into the Theme Park Gear/Level Grind that one of the big companies would shoehorn it into.

Sad to say, but we are reaching the point where it no longer matters what IP or era is being simulated.  Every major MMORPG is a near-clone with identical business models built on mass churn and short term exploitation for maximum profit.  Game of Thrones Online would be no exception.

Well let's not pretend that the Timesinks and Tedium of Sandbox design is a good fit for the IP either.

Game of Thrones definitely isn't about travel timesinks and tedious crafting and an empty world.  It's about Interesting Events and Intigue.

So a faithful MMORPG would focus on those consequences and choices and make them a frequent part of play.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Dominions 3! Do you have the CBM installed?

 I haven't played Dom3 in a few months, and I just picked up CK2 so I'll probably be looking to that for my strategy fix.  But I did have a bunch of mods installed and CBM may have been one of them.

Dom3 really is a great game.  It's sad that the only games still made with depth are so niche that they have to be made by like 2 or 3 guys and have 386 level graphics.

I still play them because they are just so good from a depth standpoint, but I really wish a big development studio would make a game like Dom3 with all the bells and whistles of the modern era.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

 

Apart from the boobs and blood, what part of the game was for "grown-ups"?

And EvE is a good example of a game in which diplomacy, intrigue and "gray morals" come in to play quite a bit. All of it created by the players and have nothing to do with the game "rules" at all... 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Cembrye

I am not sure where I read this, but I believe George R. Martin has vowed to never allow GOT to be made into a MMORPG.  I suspect he cares too much about his consequence/choice driven world to allow it to be turned into the Theme Park Gear/Level Grind that one of the big companies would shoehorn it into.

Sad to say, but we are reaching the point where it no longer matters what IP or era is being simulated.  Every major MMORPG is a near-clone with identical business models built on mass churn and short term exploitation for maximum profit.  Game of Thrones Online would be no exception.

Well let's not pretend that the Timesinks and Tedium of Sandbox design is a good fit for the IP either.

Game of Thrones definitely isn't about travel timesinks and tedious crafting and an empty world.  It's about Interesting Events and Intigue.

So a faithful MMORPG would focus on those consequences and choices and make them a frequent part of play.

You are totally wrong. Large parts of the story revolve around travel.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

...

 

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

 

 All I'm saying is that Funcom marketed AoC as a "mature" MMORPG, and to them "mature" appears to have meant the same thing as it does to a movie that comes on Cinemax at 1AM.  Personally, it annoys me a little.  I don't see what is so mature about boobies and blood.  I liked boobies and blood when I was 13 and I still like them today.  I don't think I've "matured" into liking them.

I'm also not trying to say that I think it's "wrong" to like childish things as an adult.  Heck, I love watching cartoons, even My Little Pony lol.  The sad thing is that the plots in MLP are sometimes just as complex as the plots  in many "adult" shows.  In fact, if you literally took the dialogue and plot out of some MLP episodes and redid them as a typical live action sitcom...it would be considered a show for adults.

I basically just think it's a sad state of the world in which we define "mature" to just mean things that we normally don't let children see like boobies and blood.  And not things that children can't appreciate because they are too complex.  It just shows a kind of...lack of development.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Cembrye

I am not sure where I read this, but I believe George R. Martin has vowed to never allow GOT to be made into a MMORPG.  I suspect he cares too much about his consequence/choice driven world to allow it to be turned into the Theme Park Gear/Level Grind that one of the big companies would shoehorn it into.

Sad to say, but we are reaching the point where it no longer matters what IP or era is being simulated.  Every major MMORPG is a near-clone with identical business models built on mass churn and short term exploitation for maximum profit.  Game of Thrones Online would be no exception.

Well let's not pretend that the Timesinks and Tedium of Sandbox design is a good fit for the IP either.

Game of Thrones definitely isn't about travel timesinks and tedious crafting and an empty world.  It's about Interesting Events and Intigue.

So a faithful MMORPG would focus on those consequences and choices and make them a frequent part of play.

I agree with you Axehilt but, probably like you, I don't rate the chances of a 'faithful' Game of Thrones MMORPG being made as even worth considering.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Cembrye

I am not sure where I read this, but I believe George R. Martin has vowed to never allow GOT to be made into a MMORPG.  I suspect he cares too much about his consequence/choice driven world to allow it to be turned into the Theme Park Gear/Level Grind that one of the big companies would shoehorn it into.

Sad to say, but we are reaching the point where it no longer matters what IP or era is being simulated.  Every major MMORPG is a near-clone with identical business models built on mass churn and short term exploitation for maximum profit.  Game of Thrones Online would be no exception.

Well let's not pretend that the Timesinks and Tedium of Sandbox design is a good fit for the IP either.

Game of Thrones definitely isn't about travel timesinks and tedious crafting and an empty world.  It's about Interesting Events and Intigue.

So a faithful MMORPG would focus on those consequences and choices and make them a frequent part of play.

You are totally wrong. Large parts of the story revolve around travel.

 Haha indeed!  Like...

[SPOILER TO LATER BOOKS BELOW HIGHLIGHT TO READ]

The amount of time that Tyrion was on that damn ship in A Dance with Dragons.

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

 

Apart from the boobs and blood, what part of the game was for "grown-ups"?

I never implied there was more. I just meant that even though Funcom only added blood and boobs, doesnt mean that they think that a grown up game is only about blood and boobs (this was in reaction to what Creslin wrote). In the case of Age of Conan it is also about representing the comics and what they think sells well. Maybe their upcoming MMO has the other grown up parts to your liking.

And EvE is a good example of a game in which diplomacy, intrigue and "gray morals" come in to play quite a bit. All of it created by the players and have nothing to do with the game "rules" at all... 

Yeah, because players bring it with them to the game, the developers created a grown up game? If some players roleplay with diplomacy, intrigue and 'gray morals' in World of Warcraft... meh..im out of this discussion.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

...

 

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

 

 All I'm saying is that Funcom marketed AoC as a "mature" MMORPG, and to them "mature" appears to have meant the same thing as it does to a movie that comes on Cinemax at 1AM.  Personally, it annoys me a little.  I don't see what is so mature about boobies and blood.  I liked boobies and blood when I was 13 and I still like them today.  I don't think I've "matured" into liking them.

I'm also not trying to say that I think it's "wrong" to like childish things as an adult.  Heck, I love watching cartoons, even My Little Pony lol.  The sad thing is that the plots in MLP are sometimes just as complex as the plots  in many "adult" shows.  In fact, if you literally took the dialogue and plot out of some MLP episodes and redid them as a typical live action sitcom...it would be considered a show for adults.

I basically just think it's a sad state of the world in which we define "mature" to just mean things that we normally don't let children see like boobies and blood.  And not things that children can't appreciate because they are too complex.  It just shows a kind of...lack of development.

I think that in this case you have to look at it through the Conan fans' eyes. They expected blood and boobs because the comics have them too. I don't know the comics well, I just remembered all the writing about it on the forums in anticipation of the game.

And I'm sorry that you just woke up and discovered that sad state of the world (in mainstream entertainment anyway) :p

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

 

Apart from the boobs and blood, what part of the game was for "grown-ups"?

I never implied there was more. I just meant that even though Funcom only added blood and boobs, doesnt mean that they think that a grown up game is only about blood and boobs (this was in reaction to what Creslin wrote). In the case of Age of Conan it is also about representing the comics and what they think sells well. Maybe their upcoming MMO has the other grown up parts to your liking.

And EvE is a good example of a game in which diplomacy, intrigue and "gray morals" come in to play quite a bit. All of it created by the players and have nothing to do with the game "rules" at all... 

Yeah, because players bring it with them to the game, the developers created a grown up game? If some players roleplay with diplomacy, intrigue and 'gray morals' in World of Warcraft... meh..im out of this discussion.

 

You assume to much. Never was implying that EvE is a grown up game. Just mentioning how a game could have such aspects without it being part of the rule set  or being "guided" by the developer. Sorry for confusing you.

Mature games eh? Complex games? Adult games?

After 10 hours in the office, kids, house to clean, dinner to make, bills the last thing I want is a game that is so complex i need weeks to understand it.

I want to relax.

Complex games are for young people with many many many free hours and a brain to feed. :-)

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

...

 

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

 

 All I'm saying is that Funcom marketed AoC as a "mature" MMORPG, and to them "mature" appears to have meant the same thing as it does to a movie that comes on Cinemax at 1AM.  Personally, it annoys me a little.  I don't see what is so mature about boobies and blood.  I liked boobies and blood when I was 13 and I still like them today.  I don't think I've "matured" into liking them.

I'm also not trying to say that I think it's "wrong" to like childish things as an adult.  Heck, I love watching cartoons, even My Little Pony lol.  The sad thing is that the plots in MLP are sometimes just as complex as the plots  in many "adult" shows.  In fact, if you literally took the dialogue and plot out of some MLP episodes and redid them as a typical live action sitcom...it would be considered a show for adults.

I basically just think it's a sad state of the world in which we define "mature" to just mean things that we normally don't let children see like boobies and blood.  And not things that children can't appreciate because they are too complex.  It just shows a kind of...lack of development.

I think that in this case you have to look at it through the Conan fans' eyes. They expected blood and boobs because the comics have them too. I don't know the comics well, I just remembered all the writing about it on the forums in anticipation of the game.

And I'm sorry that you just woke up and discovered that sad state of the world (in mainstream entertainment anyway) :p

 Your comment about the Conan fans is true.  And I agree, the game should have blood and boobs.  But as you say, I'm more just lamenting about the fact that "mature" in marketing typically just means "bloody and/or naked" and has nothing to do with complexity.

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

I had such a deja vu feeling after reading this OP. I read simialr stuff before AOC was released... ' A MMO finally for grown ups'.

The sad thing is that it seemed like Funcom thought "grown up" meant "has boobies and blood."  Other than those two factors, AoC is pretty much just as infantile as any other MMORPG.

No complex and thought provoking gameplay, no morally ambiguous choices, no complex storylines.

Have we really got to the point where all it means to be "grown up" is that you can see an R rated movie?

Yeah, why not War and Peace MMORPG? Fully voiced over. In Russian of course. No language barrier can stop a real grown up MMORPG connaisseur. Of course with an optional Learning Ruski in 7 days tutorial included for the not so intellectual people and some bloodski and boobski on the cover.

 You laugh, but the manual to some strategy games that I like to play like Dominions 3 or Europa Universalis probably isn't far off from War and Peace ;).

Wasn't my point. Funcom tried to make a grown up game (in rating) that would sell. Having boobs and blood helps with that. That doesnt mean that they also automatically think grown ups is just about blood and boobs. I think this is quite obvious.

I've played my fair share of Avalon Hill strategic boardgames and pen and paper rpgs. Not that I still would want that. I'm very glad that the pcgames make it possible that you as player have a lot less rules to learn before you can play. Even with more complex games (just imagine the rule book for EVE Online by using shipmodels and dice Oo ).

 

Apart from the boobs and blood, what part of the game was for "grown-ups"?

I never implied there was more. I just meant that even though Funcom only added blood and boobs, doesnt mean that they think that a grown up game is only about blood and boobs (this was in reaction to what Creslin wrote). In the case of Age of Conan it is also about representing the comics and what they think sells well. Maybe their upcoming MMO has the other grown up parts to your liking.

And EvE is a good example of a game in which diplomacy, intrigue and "gray morals" come in to play quite a bit. All of it created by the players and have nothing to do with the game "rules" at all... 

Yeah, because players bring it with them to the game, the developers created a grown up game? If some players roleplay with diplomacy, intrigue and 'gray morals' in World of Warcraft... meh..im out of this discussion.

 

You assume to much. Never was implying that EvE is a grown up game. Just mentioning how a game could have such aspects without it being part of the rule set  or being "guided" by the developer. Sorry for confusing you.

I assumed that because that was what Creslin and I were talking about before you quoted me. Seems that the confusing part here is you taking my quote out of context.