Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.

Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

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Originally posted by Cuathon

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Originally posted by Vegetto
 

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Originally posted by Ujirik
I think that everybody will reach that point eventually. It's mostly because you've experienced all the standards and now know what you want from a game. In my opinion, there's really only two options left when you reach this point in gaming: pursue it or give up. You can either attempt to learn one of the various programming languages or just give up and hope that somebody will eventually make your desired game. There's really nothing wrong with waiting and learning is easier said than done, but it's worth a shot. You've played the games and have developed a passion for the genre. Isn't it about time to try your hand at creating something?
Anyway, dramatic nonsense aside, it's perfectly normal to get burned out. Something new will come around and spark your interest eventually, but it's probably a good idea to try something else until then.

---

 
Exactly what i've decided to do. I see the indie devs about and i think "ok, just what qualifies them to even try making an MMO? What's on their CV?". The answer is usually not alot and certainly nothing to put me in the shade. When i see the models, the textures, the animations, the GUI, the piss poor coding, i always ask "why didn't they do xyz?"
Answer is they can't. 9/10 they seem to be people who learnt C++ at college and that's it. You see this when all patches and updates are coding ones, rather than anything tangible. Coders usually have a very narrowly focussed skillset, you rarely get a creative programmer, you cannot have that mindset to be a good one, it's like being an accountant.
So, from now i'll be learning a new script language and working with a new engine. I have spent 2 years not doing alot and trying half-assed games, in that time i could have created something half-decent, so i'm going to put it to the test :)

---

This is very offensive. Great coders are creative. Just because some people are dumb code monkeys doesn't make the rest of us non creative.

---

Find a half decent programmer and tell me what else he can do (not that he needs to)...or if that's you, explain what other skills are attached to that? I have never met or heard of a programmer who can do ANYTHING else other than program, they cannot think outside of that world, you need to be focussed on coding.

There is a reason behind it and it's because you cannot be creative writing code, how can you, you can't even see what it is you're doing unless you compile it every 5 minutes. You can think of more efficient ways of doing things, smarter ways of doing things, new ways of doing things, but your main job is to make functional code. To do any more than that, you would need two heads.

So it's not offsensive, it's just the nature of the game. It takes a certain type of person to excel at programming, just like accountancy. I hit a limit on my own programming ability, as i enjoy designing things more, visually seeing the fruits of my efforts as i go and you can't be a master at both.

But what happens when, as most indies do, the lead of the project is a programmer, what then? Concentration goes full speed on making the systems of the game work, but it ends up looking crap, behind schedule, poorly advertised, poorly managed, no plan, poor customer feedback, visually unappealing. But that's how they roll.

EIther you've never known any actual programmers, of you've only met crappy ones.

I've known plenty of people who were good artists, idea people, musicians, in addition to being good programmers.

To believe such people dont exist is just narrow-minded and stupid.

Raph Koster? I am pretty sure he is a programmer?

Do you know why indie MMOs have bad art? Because money. Bad advertising? Because money. Schedule? Money. Not that money helps AAA MMOs THAT much in a lot of cases. I am looking at you SWTOR. Poorly managed? You mean they haven't got 1000000 guys in the business department like EA? Well no shit sherlock.

It has nothing to do with programming and everything to do with taking on huge projects as an indie team with only a few members.

Originally posted by Alasti

I am 39 years old and have been playing MMO's since the days of Ultima Online, Everquest 1, and Asheron's Call (3 of my top 5 all time favorite games...MMO or otherwise).  Anyway...

I just cant seem to "get into" mmo's any more and I hate it!  I mean I really hate that I can't immerse myself into MMO's like I once did. I have played almost all of the "popular" mmo's: EQ1, EQ2, UO, Vanguard, DAoC, WoW, etc.   I have tried playing the new games (Rift, etc.) as well as re-living the old ones (AC, Everquest, Vanguard, etc.) and I just don't have that incessant "pull" to keep playing.  Every game is the exact same in that there is somewhat of a grind doing traditional quests or killing creatures for experience.  I am sick of doing that...I mean I have killed like 1,000,000,000,000 wolves/skeletons accross more worlds than I can even remember.  When will someone create something completely new?  Something different?  Something completely outside the box we all have become accustomed to?  I mean to be honest, I don't have ANY idea what I'm even saying because what I am asking for does not exist yet.... (as far as I know).

 

Anyway....I am aware this is a rant, and am not sure even why I am writing this, but I do know that it saddens me that there isn't something out there that will pull me in like the games of old used to when they were new and I wasn't burnt out on killing ogres and zombies.

 

 

 Hi, Im 37 yrs old and felt like you did. For me what brought me back is sandbox games. Of course your going to be bored playing themeparks of today. 

Playing Mortal Online right now and been playing basically since it released.

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Originally posted by Cuathon

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Originally posted by FrostWyrm

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Originally posted by Vegetto

 

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Originally posted by Cuathon

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Originally posted by Vegetto
 

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Originally posted by Ujirik
I think that everybody will reach that point eventually. It's mostly because you've experienced all the standards and now know what you want from a game. In my opinion, there's really only two options left when you reach this point in gaming: pursue it or give up. You can either attempt to learn one of the various programming languages or just give up and hope that somebody will eventually make your desired game. There's really nothing wrong with waiting and learning is easier said than done, but it's worth a shot. You've played the games and have developed a passion for the genre. Isn't it about time to try your hand at creating something?
Anyway, dramatic nonsense aside, it's perfectly normal to get burned out. Something new will come around and spark your interest eventually, but it's probably a good idea to try something else until then.

---

 
Exactly what i've decided to do. I see the indie devs about and i think "ok, just what qualifies them to even try making an MMO? What's on their CV?". The answer is usually not alot and certainly nothing to put me in the shade. When i see the models, the textures, the animations, the GUI, the piss poor coding, i always ask "why didn't they do xyz?"
Answer is they can't. 9/10 they seem to be people who learnt C++ at college and that's it. You see this when all patches and updates are coding ones, rather than anything tangible. Coders usually have a very narrowly focussed skillset, you rarely get a creative programmer, you cannot have that mindset to be a good one, it's like being an accountant.
So, from now i'll be learning a new script language and working with a new engine. I have spent 2 years not doing alot and trying half-assed games, in that time i could have created something half-decent, so i'm going to put it to the test :)

---

This is very offensive. Great coders are creative. Just because some people are dumb code monkeys doesn't make the rest of us non creative.

---

Find a half decent programmer and tell me what else he can do (not that he needs to)...or if that's you, explain what other skills are attached to that? I have never met or heard of a programmer who can do ANYTHING else other than program, they cannot think outside of that world, you need to be focussed on coding.
There is a reason behind it and it's because you cannot be creative writing code, how can you, you can't even see what it is you're doing unless you compile it every 5 minutes. You can think of more efficient ways of doing things, smarter ways of doing things, new ways of doing things, but your main job is to make functional code. To do any more than that, you would need two heads.
So it's not offsensive, it's just the nature of the game. It takes a certain type of person to excel at programming, just like accountancy. I hit a limit on my own programming ability, as i enjoy designing things more, visually seeing the fruits of my efforts as i go and you can't be a master at both.
But what happens when, as most indies do, the lead of the project is a programmer, what then? Concentration goes full speed on making the systems of the game work, but it ends up looking crap, behind schedule, poorly advertised, poorly managed, no plan, poor customer feedback, visually unappealing. But that's how they roll.

---

EIther you've never known any actual programmers, of you've only met crappy ones.
I've known plenty of people who were good artists, idea people, musicians, in addition to being good programmers.
To believe such people dont exist is just narrow-minded and stupid.

---

Raph Koster? I am pretty sure he is a programmer?
Do you know why indie MMOs have bad art? Because money. Bad advertising? Because money. Schedule? Money. Not that money helps AAA MMOs THAT much in a lot of cases. I am looking at you SWTOR. Poorly managed? You mean they haven't got 1000000 guys in the business department like EA? Well no shit sherlock.
It has nothing to do with programming and everything to do with taking on huge projects as an indie team with only a few members.

---

There is lies part of my point about project management. They should know their capabilities and their goals from the beginning, it should be roadmapped and they should know what it is they will be making. If they do know, why bother making something so poorly and if they don't, then they shouldn't take the risk.

Which is my point, are programmers good at formulating business models? making financial forecasts? dictating the artflow of the game? Designing a good UI?..

..Perhaps 'no' to most of these. It's a case of knowing your limits and my point was, all of these indie MMOs have a programmer managing the project...and i couldn't think of anyone worse managing a production schedule.

Originally posted by Vegetto

Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.

Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

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Originally posted by Cuathon

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Originally posted by FrostWyrm

---

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

---

Originally posted by Cuathon

---

Originally posted by Vegetto
 

---

Originally posted by Ujirik
I think that everybody will reach that point eventually. It's mostly because you've experienced all the standards and now know what you want from a game. In my opinion, there's really only two options left when you reach this point in gaming: pursue it or give up. You can either attempt to learn one of the various programming languages or just give up and hope that somebody will eventually make your desired game. There's really nothing wrong with waiting and learning is easier said than done, but it's worth a shot. You've played the games and have developed a passion for the genre. Isn't it about time to try your hand at creating something?
Anyway, dramatic nonsense aside, it's perfectly normal to get burned out. Something new will come around and spark your interest eventually, but it's probably a good idea to try something else until then.

---

 
Exactly what i've decided to do. I see the indie devs about and i think "ok, just what qualifies them to even try making an MMO? What's on their CV?". The answer is usually not alot and certainly nothing to put me in the shade. When i see the models, the textures, the animations, the GUI, the piss poor coding, i always ask "why didn't they do xyz?"
Answer is they can't. 9/10 they seem to be people who learnt C++ at college and that's it. You see this when all patches and updates are coding ones, rather than anything tangible. Coders usually have a very narrowly focussed skillset, you rarely get a creative programmer, you cannot have that mindset to be a good one, it's like being an accountant.
So, from now i'll be learning a new script language and working with a new engine. I have spent 2 years not doing alot and trying half-assed games, in that time i could have created something half-decent, so i'm going to put it to the test :)

---

This is very offensive. Great coders are creative. Just because some people are dumb code monkeys doesn't make the rest of us non creative.

---

Find a half decent programmer and tell me what else he can do (not that he needs to)...or if that's you, explain what other skills are attached to that? I have never met or heard of a programmer who can do ANYTHING else other than program, they cannot think outside of that world, you need to be focussed on coding.
There is a reason behind it and it's because you cannot be creative writing code, how can you, you can't even see what it is you're doing unless you compile it every 5 minutes. You can think of more efficient ways of doing things, smarter ways of doing things, new ways of doing things, but your main job is to make functional code. To do any more than that, you would need two heads.
So it's not offsensive, it's just the nature of the game. It takes a certain type of person to excel at programming, just like accountancy. I hit a limit on my own programming ability, as i enjoy designing things more, visually seeing the fruits of my efforts as i go and you can't be a master at both.
But what happens when, as most indies do, the lead of the project is a programmer, what then? Concentration goes full speed on making the systems of the game work, but it ends up looking crap, behind schedule, poorly advertised, poorly managed, no plan, poor customer feedback, visually unappealing. But that's how they roll.

---

EIther you've never known any actual programmers, of you've only met crappy ones.
I've known plenty of people who were good artists, idea people, musicians, in addition to being good programmers.
To believe such people dont exist is just narrow-minded and stupid.

---

 

Raph Koster? I am pretty sure he is a programmer?
Do you know why indie MMOs have bad art? Because money. Bad advertising? Because money. Schedule? Money. Not that money helps AAA MMOs THAT much in a lot of cases. I am looking at you SWTOR. Poorly managed? You mean they haven't got 1000000 guys in the business department like EA? Well no shit sherlock.
It has nothing to do with programming and everything to do with taking on huge projects as an indie team with only a few members.

---

 

There is lies part of my point about project management. They should know their capabilities and their goals from the beginning, it should be roadmapped and they should know what it is they will be making. If they do know, why bother making something so poorly and if they don't, then they shouldn't take the risk.

Which is my point, are programmers good at formulating business models? making financial forecasts? dictating the artflow of the game? Designing a good UI?..

..Perhaps 'no' to most of these. It's a case of knowing your limits and my point was, all of these indie MMOs have a programmer managing the project...and i couldn't think of anyone worse managing a production schedule.

That is an indie issue and not a programming issue. It has nothing to do with the nature of programmers.

Originally posted by kzaske

Originally posted by Vegetto

Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.

Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

Yeah, thats what I said, but this guy is dead-set that if you know how to program, you're incapable of anything but that.

Maybe he was bitten by a programmer as a child.

Try vindictus.  Vindictus can at least take you outside the box.  Of course I am at a loss as to where to go from there -- but at least tera will be out by the time you real that point.

Rift (especially back when it was in beta before they started trimming down the options) did have a world.  That was actually the first recent game that actually TRIED that way.  Of course it folded like a cheap lawn chair under nerfs and endgame.

----

Code Monkey get up get coffee

Code Monkey go to job

Code Monkey have boring meeting with boring manager Rob

Rob say code monkey very diligent but his output stink

His code not functional or elegant

What do code monkey think

Code monkey think maybe manager oughta write gd login page himself

Code monkey not saying out loud

Code monkey not crazy just proud

-----

Refrain.

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Originally posted by kzaske

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Originally posted by Vegetto
Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.
Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

---

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

---

What spare time? At what level can you be a programmer in game development with the CONSTANT changes in API, engines, graphics/hardware. Every few months you will need to learn something new.

I've tried it personally, so don't know about everyone else, but you can fuck spare time right out of the window unless you're making minesweeper.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by kzaske

Originally posted by Vegetto

Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.

Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

Yeah, thats what I said, but this guy is dead-set that if you know how to program, you're incapable of anything but that.

Maybe he was bitten by a programmer as a child.

i know right?

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

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Originally posted by kzaske

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Originally posted by Vegetto
Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.
Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

---

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

---

 

What spare time? At what level can you be a programmer in game development with the CONSTANT changes in API, engines, graphics/hardware. Every few months you will need to learn something new.

I've tried it personally, so don't know about everyone else, but you can fuck spare time right out of the window unless you're making minesweeper.

All I hear is wah I suck at programming and need an excuse as to why.

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Originally posted by FrostWyrm

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Originally posted by kzaske

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Originally posted by Vegetto

Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.
Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

---

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

---

Yeah, thats what I said, but this guy is dead-set that if you know how to program, you're incapable of anything but that.
Maybe he was bitten by a programmer as a child.

---

Or maybe people are oversimplifying this. If you want to be a good programmer in game development, you will NOT being doing anything else to do with design..you can't and won't, unless your job is to program the screensavers.

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Originally posted by Cuathon

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Originally posted by Vegetto
 

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Originally posted by kzaske

---

Originally posted by Vegetto
Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.
Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

---

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

---

 
What spare time? At what level can you be a programmer in game development with the CONSTANT changes in API, engines, graphics/hardware. Every few months you will need to learn something new.
I've tried it personally, so don't know about everyone else, but you can fuck spare time right out of the window unless you're making minesweeper.

---

All I hear is wah I suck at programming and need an excuse as to why.

---

I'm fine with the level of my skills, it's not something i need to develop more that's all.

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

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Originally posted by FrostWyrm

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Originally posted by kzaske

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Originally posted by Vegetto

Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.
Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

---

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

---

Yeah, thats what I said, but this guy is dead-set that if you know how to program, you're incapable of anything but that.
Maybe he was bitten by a programmer as a child.

---

 

Or maybe people are oversimplifying this. If you want to be a good programmer in game development, you will NOT being doing anything else to do with design..you can't and won't, unless your job is to program the screensavers.

That has nothing to do with programmers creativity even if it was true, which its not.

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

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Originally posted by Cuathon

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Originally posted by Vegetto
 

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Originally posted by kzaske

---

Originally posted by Vegetto
Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.
Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

---

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

---

 
What spare time? At what level can you be a programmer in game development with the CONSTANT changes in API, engines, graphics/hardware. Every few months you will need to learn something new.
I've tried it personally, so don't know about everyone else, but you can fuck spare time right out of the window unless you're making minesweeper.

---

 

All I hear is wah I suck at programming and need an excuse as to why.

---

 

I'm fine with the level of my skills, it's not something i need to develop more that's all.

You may be fine with being mediocre, or at least resigned to it, but most programmers don't have the problem you have unless they are just code monkeys.

You don't have to be an encyclopedia of APIs/engines/libraries to be good at programming.

Originally posted by Alasti

I am 39 years old and have been playing MMO's since the days of Ultima Online, Everquest 1, and Asheron's Call (3 of my top 5 all time favorite games...MMO or otherwise).  Anyway...

I just cant seem to "get into" mmo's any more and I hate it!  I mean I really hate that I can't immerse myself into MMO's like I once did. I have played almost all of the "popular" mmo's: EQ1, EQ2, UO, Vanguard, DAoC, WoW, etc.   I have tried playing the new games (Rift, etc.) as well as re-living the old ones (AC, Everquest, Vanguard, etc.) and I just don't have that incessant "pull" to keep playing.  Every game is the exact same in that there is somewhat of a grind doing traditional quests or killing creatures for experience.  I am sick of doing that...I mean I have killed like 1,000,000,000,000 wolves/skeletons accross more worlds than I can even remember.  When will someone create something completely new?  Something different?  Something completely outside the box we all have become accustomed to?  I mean to be honest, I don't have ANY idea what I'm even saying because what I am asking for does not exist yet.... (as far as I know).

 

Anyway....I am aware this is a rant, and am not sure even why I am writing this, but I do know that it saddens me that there isn't something out there that will pull me in like the games of old used to when they were new and I wasn't burnt out on killing ogres and zombies.

 

 

 Lots of us have this problem, we just need something new.

Originally posted by Vegetto

 

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Originally posted by Cuathon

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Originally posted by Vegetto
 

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Originally posted by kzaske

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Originally posted by Vegetto
Not the ones who make MMOs clearly.
Becoming adept at C++, if you can be a social person with that, then i take my hat off to you as you are a better person than me.

---

If I were you, I would be hoping it's not raining.  I know quite a few programmers that are artist and musicians in thier spare time.

---

 
What spare time? At what level can you be a programmer in game development with the CONSTANT changes in API, engines, graphics/hardware. Every few months you will need to learn something new.
I've tried it personally, so don't know about everyone else, but you can fuck spare time right out of the window unless you're making minesweeper.

---

All I hear is wah I suck at programming and need an excuse as to why.

---

I'm fine with the level of my skills, it's not something i need to develop more that's all.

Thats all well and good, but just because you can't do something that doesn't make it impossible for others.

I can't juggle swords. Other people can juggle swords while riding a unicycle and balancing a plate on a stick on the tip of their noses. (there was a thread recently about analogies) My own sword juggling skill is no representation of the skills of others.

Actually, I blame C for the current problems in coding.

The C class of languages was designed for one reason and one reason only.

To get close to the metal for systems programming.

It sacrificed EVERYTHING to achieve that.

These days it can bank its 10% efficiency boost in the bit bucket.

Not only does the operating system eat a lot of the efficiency boost but the rest is hardly needed. 

What *IS* needed is code that is self-debugging. 

I used to *LOVE* Borland Pascal for that -- you could write 10,000 literal lines of code without testing any of it and then come back and the compiler would find all of the errors.  Try that in C++ and you will never make the code work correctly.

This is NOT to say that we need to all go back to pascal as a language.

This *IS* to say that C++ is *NOT* the beall endall language that we should be using in 2012.

What we really need is the language that is easiest to maintain and expand upon once you have coded something.

I dont think anyone is even trying to make such a language -- but it is what we need.

Bad programmers do what they gotta do to promote their lackings both in and out of the field.