Original locked for not being constructive thread here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=302345

I'll copy the OP:

Your original post on the SWTOR forums seemed pretty well within the so-called "respectable" guidelines that SWTOR Community Managers demand.  I didn't see any profanity, I didn't see any immature name-calling, I just saw a lot of issues that others have pointed out, and you seem to have found them as well.  So color me NOT surprised when I saw the Community rep respond with:

It's been my impression as of late that you're only allowed to voice your opinion if you're a sycophantic suck-up fan of the game, the developer, and the Star Wars franchise.

In the beginning, I started out defending the game AND Bioware, thinking; "The game just released, they need time to get settled in and they'll start addressing the issues people come up with as soon as they start identifying them."

But after seeing more issues arise after each patch, I'm astounded that they would even dare to claim that they had implemented any "fixes" except a few of the most minor ones.

As game-breaking as some issue have been even after the most recent patches, my evaluation of the game is that it's still in beta stage, and should not have been released. 

I never expected my opinion of Bioware to fall so drastically, I have admired and respected everything else they have done, but this just seems to be far below the standards they have established for themselves in other projects.

Being a New Dev in game design I wanna chime in on both the player sides since I been a gamer since I was a kid in the 80's and now a developer...

First I see why people are hardly making MMo's , one there alot harder to make and they cost a ton more, alot more will go wrong with an MMO, no matter how much you test, it takes on patch and bam, your screwed and you have to go through many, many , many lines of code, which can take for ever, you also have many different people on that team, and not everyone codes the same.. So...point 1, you are gonna see less and less MMO being made, because gamers that are devs are seeing to many gamers get upset really , really easy and not understanding how things are in the MMO world, look bioware great company made many Rpg's and other games and did well, now an MMO is made and they do ok, by MMO standards, but gamers expect an MMo TO BE perfect.

Guess what it will never. ever, ever happen in a million years, MMO are an always will be in beta, you are patching and adding and adding and adding content and changing the engine, etc, guess what the hero engine works fine, people bash and blame engines, it not that, People now a days are not patient enough, SWTOR had a better release than 95% of most games that have been release in the last 10 years... Yes there are lacking content agree, also to many console players, making it harder for the raider to get groups, so alot of solo players , play the game partly SWTOR fault, since there fan base is more KOTR players and console, with some MMO  fans, which is how they could of fixed that and still can is by merging servers , instead they won't because its a sign of failure and stocks will FALL, this is fact, but if they don't people will continue to leave.. Nothing new coming from gamers, because I'm an old school gamer, and we had games that where better back in the day and gamers cared about rep and grouping and having a good time, Gamers today care about them selfs, whining if its not there way..Getting gear and in the process of getting gear stepping on everyone toes they can to get the gear , pissing every player , dev off and Rage quiting if they don't.

Now being a gamer, I see we do need more content, they also should of had different content, for every class, not just a few, and class quests , different, but ALL MMo's have done this so really no different, the voice overs are great , but they spent to much money on them, it was fun once, now I could careless about voice overs, and such... They should of added alot more storys likes seperate from other classes, and added more areas for each class, also adding more flash points, guild tools, and grouping tools.

WOW is Old now, and they have the tools that SWTOR should of used like the guild functions, heck even tera has some guild functions, that SWTOR should of used. I know I beta test and play many games, to get inspried, so when I make bigger scale games, I add in things/stuff people like, but I would never , ever, ever make an MMO, you know why, most people at school hate them because gamers whine to darn much about silly stuff and whine and whine,.

Its must easier to make smaller scale games, and you can make more money with less hassle, so if you want MMO's to do well, give the Devs more respect, and indie devs, yes they can suck at times, but there idea is there, give the new devs a chance, because we are being trained alot better, from what I have seen, we are no longer seeing anyone going right for an MMO, they are making many. many smaller scale games, working with many teams, before even thinking MMo.

But if you wanna see a game designed proper one of the only ways is to give DEVs more respect, no matter what type, indie, AAA, etc, because if you don't we will see less and less made by REAL gamers, and we won't see games they are made right or even close to right like we did back in the day..... I see alot more whining now a days with the new gamers, rather than the older games,.....This is not to bash younger games, but I want you younger games, to make a silly game, on a easy program like game maker, heck even make something on the Unreal engine Kit, and then when you see what is all involed, then understand where they are coming from...

This is my 2 cents take this as you will, but this is coming from a gamer from the 80's and I have played, many , many types of games and MMO's I have played 99% of the P2P ones. I also have made about 10 or so games on my own and with teams of smaller scale, so I'm on both sides, there is more to this, but I hope people get the point, some with bash, and think, i'm wrong and think its what they think and thats why MMO's are not coming from the heart and TRUE gamers anymore....We need games made by gamers  NOT by money whores...Like alot of the AAA companys..

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Being a New Dev in game design I wanna chime in on both the player sides since I been a gamer since I was a kid in the 80's and now a developer...

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
First I see why people are hardly making MMo's , one there alot harder to make and they cost a ton more, alot more will go wrong with an MMO, no matter how much you test, it takes on patch and bam, your screwed and you have to go through many, many , many lines of code, which can take for ever, you also have many different people on that team, and not everyone codes the same.. So...point 1, you are gonna see less and less MMO being made, because gamers that are devs are seeing to many gamers get upset really , really easy and not understanding how things are in the MMO world, look bioware great company made many Rpg's and other games and did well, now an MMO is made and they do ok, by MMO standards, but gamers expect an MMo TO BE perfect.

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As a side not: I don't play Battlefront nor Eve, I truly hate the games.

A perfect example of refusing to make desision is the cooldown fiasco and the non-solution Bioware is choosing.

From a UI design POW (what I'm doing now as a dev), this is the most stupid decision you can take. Apple's success is a testament to this: when you take strong and coherent decision throughout your UI, then you have highly usable and ergonomic products. Adding an option for everything is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Now, Bioware has been asked for add-ons support since beta. This is obviously the right way to go about it: make a very simple, bug-free, coherent UI and create an open-source community that creates alternatives. Pick up what works in the alternatives then integrate in your simple design.

As a dev, when I hear Bioware saying that they prefer to "fix" their failing UI (with the kind of "fixes" above) rather than supporting add-ons ASAP, I can't help but ask myself: who is the junior dev at Bioware who thought hard-coded UI was a good idea? Don't they have a tool to create UIs already? Are we back in 1990?

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Guess what it will never. ever, ever happen in a million years, MMO are an always will be in beta, you are patching and adding and adding and adding content and changing the engine, etc, guess what the hero engine works fine, people bash and blame engines, it not that, People now a days are not patient enough, SWTOR had a better release than 95% of most games that have been release in the last 10 years... Yes there are lacking content agree, also to many console players, making it harder for the raider to get groups, so alot of solo players , play the game partly SWTOR fault, since there fan base is more KOTR players and console, with some MMO  fans, which is how they could of fixed that and still can is by merging servers , instead they won't because its a sign of failure and stocks will FALL, this is fact, but if they don't people will continue to leave.. Nothing new coming from gamers, because I'm an old school gamer, and we had games that where better back in the day and gamers cared about rep and grouping and having a good time, Gamers today care about them selfs, whining if its not there way..Getting gear and in the process of getting gear stepping on everyone toes they can to get the gear , pissing every player , dev off and Rage quiting if they don't.

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First, the engine: please, do yourself a favor, fire up an xbox, download Rage's demo and play it. Then play swtor. If you still thing the engine works properly after that, then I'd suggest to go buy some glasses.

The Hero Engine is a joke, not because of the low quality of the gfx (it looks good on alienware systems -- pun intended) but because it's totally unstable and clunky (resource loading is laughable). That's a big problem of PC games, sure, but you can see solo games getting patches that fix this kind of issues at a steady rate (sometimes hours after a release). Such is not the case in swtor. This fact, cumulated with the UI apparently not being designed internally with tools proper enough to enable add-ons doesn't really bode well from a dev quality point of view.

Release was good because voice-over slows the pace down so people stayed longer in start areas which were especially well-designed and tested. The second zone was not that bad either (at least Dromund Kaas, didn't really play in Coruscant that much to be able to judge) so they avoided the AOC syndrom (especially given voice-over continued). But don't let that fool you, once people realized what was going on technically and from a grinding point of view, the AOC effect stroke back.

I am a KOTOR fan (the first one at least). I know the game is not perfect but it has a lot of charm. I didn't expect SWTOR to be a verbatim copy but I expected SWTOR to be an MMO with a lot of charm: it was in start areas then it was just a bad copy of World of Warcraft with voice-overs. Sorry to be so blunt.

Bioware chose to make the game gear-oriented. That was probably the worst decision they could have taken in a story-oriented game: I could have understood that for Bounty Hunters and Troopers but force users? I dunno, it felt weird to have my sith change of robe to gain stats.

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Now being a gamer, I see we do need more content, they also should of had different content, for every class, not just a few, and class quests , different, but ALL MMo's have done this so really no different, the voice overs are great , but they spent to much money on them, it was fun once, now I could careless about voice overs, and such... They should of added alot more storys likes seperate from other classes, and added more areas for each class, also adding more flash points, guild tools, and grouping tools.

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And again, I'm a bit worried to hear a dev push for more separate content for classes... this is what makes the game feel like a solo game already (not that I mind that much but do I have to pay a monthly fee for a solo RPG game when Skyrim is around?).

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
WOW is Old now, and they have the tools that SWTOR should of used like the guild functions, heck even tera has some guild functions, that SWTOR should of used. I know I beta test and play many games, to get inspried, so when I make bigger scale games, I add in things/stuff people like, but I would never , ever, ever make an MMO, you know why, most people at school hate them because gamers whine to darn much about silly stuff and whine and whine,.

---

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Its must easier to make smaller scale games, and you can make more money with less hassle, so if you want MMO's to do well, give the Devs more respect, and indie devs, yes they can suck at times, but there idea is there, give the new devs a chance, because we are being trained alot better, from what I have seen, we are no longer seeing anyone going right for an MMO, they are making many. many smaller scale games, working with many teams, before even thinking MMo.

---

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
But if you wanna see a game designed proper one of the only ways is to give DEVs more respect, no matter what type, indie, AAA, etc, because if you don't we will see less and less made by REAL gamers, and we won't see games they are made right or even close to right like we did back in the day..... I see alot more whining now a days with the new gamers, rather than the older games,.....This is not to bash younger games, but I want you younger games, to make a silly game, on a easy program like game maker, heck even make something on the Unreal engine Kit, and then when you see what is all involed, then understand where they are coming from...

---

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Originally posted by Darkcrystal
This is my 2 cents take this as you will, but this is coming from a gamer from the 80's and I have played, many , many types of games and MMO's I have played 99% of the P2P ones. I also have made about 10 or so games on my own and with teams of smaller scale, so I'm on both sides, there is more to this, but I hope people get the point, some with bash, and think, i'm wrong and think its what they think and thats why MMO's are not coming from the heart and TRUE gamers anymore....We need games made by gamers  NOT by money whores...Like alot of the AAA companys..

---

Post too long...eyes fell asleep.

Agree with most of your points OP. Unsubbing this month myself, as are the majority of my gaming friends (those that didn't do so after the first month). Found it harder and harder to login and I tried VERY hard to like this game almost to a state of sheer denial. They could have taken a chance and tried to do something different and gutsy but instead it feels that the middle ground was the safest option for the larger MMO audience. That said, I am sure they're stil making a shed load of money so it's probably considered a financial success. More power to anyone that gets they're rocks off playing it but I suspect that number is diminishing. For my part, I am hoping that there's some canny developer out there with gigantic balls who's gonna surprise everyone and shake the thick layer of dust off the MMO scene.   

Originally posted by Ausare

Post too long...eyes fell asleep.

 Well theres your problem. Short text attention span disorder. Might want to give up reading forums and stick to you tube watching?

Goodbye posts are never constructive. If you're quitting you don't matter.
And:

"First, the engine is buggy as hell.
Then you refuse to acknowledge the issue (5% my ass).
Then you release patches with sneaky "fixes" (do you really think no-one can see when resources are loaded differently -- ie in a less blocking way).
Then you release flat out breaking patches"

 
Ranting isn't constructive either.
 

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Goodbye posts are never constructive. If you're quitting you don't matter.
And:

(quote)First, the engine is buggy as hell.

Then you refuse to acknowledge the issue (5% my ass).

Then you release patches with sneaky "fixes" (do you really think no-one can see when resources are loaded differently -- ie in a less blocking way).

Then you release flat out breaking patches(/quote)

 

Ranting isn't constructive either.

 

   Yeah that is why they never ask you 'why" your leaving. Because you quit and it doesn't matter. Really Zymurgeist? Couldn't resist trolling the guy? Oh and the Engine has indeed been buggy, clunky and very un-optmized. I'd suggest coffee before posting, maybe a shower to wake up. Ranting isn't always constructive but often you'll find nuggets of truth, so don't make such an obsolute statement. ;p

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Goodbye posts are never constructive. If you're quitting you don't matter.
And:

(quote)First, the engine is buggy as hell.

Then you refuse to acknowledge the issue (5% my ass).

Then you release patches with sneaky "fixes" (do you really think no-one can see when resources are loaded differently -- ie in a less blocking way).

Then you release flat out breaking patches(/quote)

 

Ranting isn't constructive either.

 

   Yeah that is why they never ask you 'why" your leaving. Because you quit and it doesn't matter. Really Zymurgeist? Couldn't resist trolling the guy? Oh and the Engine has indeed been buggy, clunky and very un-optmized. I'd suggest coffee before posting, maybe a shower to wake up. Ranting isn't always constructive but often you'll find nuggets of truth, so don't make such an obsolute statement. ;p

 

Responding to a web site's standard form when you unsubscribe might be considered constructive, but posting your criticisms on their official forums rarely is. (from their viewpoint).

Likely your complaints have been echo'd in a number of other threads previously so unless you decide to post in one of them, you are just adding non-constructive clutter to the website. (again, from their point of view)

Do you think the developers really aren't aware of the OP's complaints?  Do you think they aren't trying to address them as soon as they are able to get them? (depending on the priority of things of course)

The OP's overall tone was snarky, and that is never considered constructive by company sponsored moderators, so bettter to post that in forums such as these with fewer limitations.

And to echo what was stated, once you decide to unsubscribe your opinion really doesn't matter, they are too busy trying to retain the folks they still have and appeal to incoming players.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Goodbye posts are never constructive. If you're quitting you don't matter.
And:

"First, the engine is buggy as hell.
Then you refuse to acknowledge the issue (5% my ass).
Then you release patches with sneaky "fixes" (do you really think no-one can see when resources are loaded differently -- ie in a less blocking way).
Then you release flat out breaking patches"

 
Ranting isn't constructive either.
 

Agreed. And you even missed the most eloquent and constructive part: the OP calling them "incompetent liars" in the last sentence.

I already quit myself, OP and I agree with many of your assessments but you really need to look up the meaning of "constructive criticism". "C'est le ton qui fait la musique,"; it's not what you say but how you say it.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Goodbye posts are never constructive. If you're quitting you don't matter.
And:

(quote)First, the engine is buggy as hell.

Then you refuse to acknowledge the issue (5% my ass).

Then you release patches with sneaky "fixes" (do you really think no-one can see when resources are loaded differently -- ie in a less blocking way).

Then you release flat out breaking patches(/quote)

 

Ranting isn't constructive either.

 

   Yeah that is why they never ask you 'why" your leaving. Because you quit and it doesn't matter. Really Zymurgeist? Couldn't resist trolling the guy? Oh and the Engine has indeed been buggy, clunky and very un-optmized. I'd suggest coffee before posting, maybe a shower to wake up. Ranting isn't always constructive but often you'll find nuggets of truth, so don't make such an obsolute statement. ;p

 

Responding to a web site's standard form when you unsubscribe might be considered constructive, but posting your criticisms on their official forums rarely is. (from their viewpoint).

Likely your complaints have been echo'd in a number of other threads previously so unless you decide to post in one of them, you are just adding non-constructive clutter to the website. (again, from their point of view)

Do you think the developers really aren't aware of the OP's complaints?  Do you think they aren't trying to address them as soon as they are able to get them? (depending on the priority of things of course)

The OP's overall tone was snarky, and that is never considered constructive by company sponsored moderators, so bettter to post that in forums such as these with fewer limitations.

And to echo what was stated, once you decide to unsubscribe your opinion really doesn't matter, they are too busy trying to retain the folks they still have and appeal to incoming players.

 

 

 

 Sorry, I can't subscribe to this mind set. Communication is just that, communicating. He is sharing with others his opinions, which causes us to talk about it. Your and the other posters stance is faulty in my opinion, short sighted.

Originally posted by Kyleran

And to echo what was stated, once you decide to unsubscribe your opinion really doesn't matter, they are too busy trying to retain the folks they still have and appeal to incoming players.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Except this last statement.

While it is true that snark remarks will be moderated, they won't be ignored. Making the assumption that the reasons people quit are of no importance to those companies is quite silly. It is the only metric they have regarding what makes people quit. So I can guarantee they look them closely, exactly to retain current players, attract new players and, also, to bring players back.

Maybe they're aware of all these issues but that would be even more infuriating since they refuse to acknowledge this publically. Communication is paramount in a community-oriented game like an MMO and that's what lacking here. I quit not because of the issues themselves but rather because I don't have enough confidence in the company anymore (that's what the "perceive as incompetent liars" is all about): I cannot know for sure if they are really aware of the situation or not and, given that, if they are able to fix the problems in a timely fashion or not.

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

 

And to echo what was stated, once you decide to unsubscribe your opinion really doesn't matter, they are too busy trying to retain the folks they still have and appeal to incoming players.

  Sorry, I can't subscribe to this mind set. Communication is just that, communicating. He is sharing with others his opinions, which causes us to talk about it. Your and the other posters stance is faulty in my opinion, short sighted.

Doesn't matter what mind set you subscribe to, communication can be effective or non-effective.  I love to share opinions as much as the next person (never confuse them with facts however) and I'm just telling you how I believe the company is going to react in this situation.  (they deleted the post and moved on)

Bioware better care a lot about the people who quit.  It will not be long before they out number the ones still playing.  SWTOR may become finacially successful but in the annuals of gamers it's not looking so good.

Originally posted by jaubourg

Originally posted by Kyleran

And to echo what was stated, once you decide to unsubscribe your opinion really doesn't matter, they are too busy trying to retain the folks they still have and appeal to incoming players.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Except this last statement.

While it is true that snark remarks will be moderated, they won't be ignored. Making the assumption that the reasons people quit are of no importance to those companies is quite silly. It is the only metric they have regarding what makes people quit. So I can guarantee they look them closely, exactly to retain current players, attract new players and, also, to bring players back.

Maybe they're aware of all these issues but that would be even more infuriating since they refuse to acknowledge this publically. Communication is paramount in a community-oriented game like an MMO and that's what lacking here. I quit not because of the issues themselves but rather because I don't have enough confidence in the company anymore (that's what the "perceive as incompetent liars" is all about): I cannot know for sure if they are really aware of the situation or not and, given that, if they are able to fix the problems in a timely fashion or not.

In fact, your remarks were ignored, the forum moderators will not be passing your comments along, nor will any developer who might have been reading the forums ever see them.

These forums are massive, and the odds on your comments reaching someone who can actually effect change is really not a whole lot better than if you had posted them over here.

Now I haven't quit yet, so don't know if they offer a comments/questionaire for you to leave them feedback. If they do, I'd say you have a much better chance of getting your concerns communicated to the people in charge.

But unsolicited forum posts? Sure the monitor them for general trends, so your complaints might get tossed in the "class action" aspect of the situation  (gee, look, we have several thousand posts saying our PVP model is broken, perhaps we'd better make some changes) but overall, you're going to get lost in the shuffle.

Not telling you to not keep posting, as you can see I do my own share here, but on official forums I largely stay away as they don't offer much in the way of real benefit, and suffer too much from company sanctioned censoring.

Originally posted by Ausare

Post too long...eyes fell asleep.

Take your pills; maybe that will help.

Anyway, I sadly thoroughly agree with you, OP.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by jaubourg

Originally posted by Kyleran

And to echo what was stated, once you decide to unsubscribe your opinion really doesn't matter, they are too busy trying to retain the folks they still have and appeal to incoming players.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Except this last statement.

While it is true that snark remarks will be moderated, they won't be ignored. Making the assumption that the reasons people quit are of no importance to those companies is quite silly. It is the only metric they have regarding what makes people quit. So I can guarantee they look them closely, exactly to retain current players, attract new players and, also, to bring players back.

Maybe they're aware of all these issues but that would be even more infuriating since they refuse to acknowledge this publically. Communication is paramount in a community-oriented game like an MMO and that's what lacking here. I quit not because of the issues themselves but rather because I don't have enough confidence in the company anymore (that's what the "perceive as incompetent liars" is all about): I cannot know for sure if they are really aware of the situation or not and, given that, if they are able to fix the problems in a timely fashion or not.

In fact, your remarks were ignored, the forum moderators will not be passing your comments along, nor will any developer who might have been reading the forums ever see them.

These forums are massive, and the odds on your comments reaching someone who can actually effect change is really not a whole lot better than if you had posted them over here.

Now I haven't quit yet, so don't know if they offer a comments/questionaire for you to leave them feedback. If they do, I'd say you have a much better chance of getting your concerns communicated to the people in charge.

But unsolicited forum posts? Sure the monitor them for general trends, so your complaints might get tossed in the "class action" aspect of the situation  (gee, look, we have several thousand posts saying our PVP model is broken, perhaps we'd better make some changes) but overall, you're going to get lost in the shuffle.

Not telling you to not keep posting, as you can see I do my own share here, but on official forums I largely stay away as they don't offer much in the way of real benefit, and suffer too much from company sanctioned censoring.

 

     They offer a questionare that I filled out when I removed my CC from the account though  I am paid up until April due to how I set up my payment plan for most games I play.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Now I haven't quit yet, so don't know if they offer a comments/questionaire for you to leave them feedback. If they do, I'd say you have a much better chance of getting your concerns communicated to the people in charge.

Oh, I understand the confusion now... this is actually exactly what I put into the unsubscribe form... I now understand I made it clear in the post on the official forum but not here. Sorry about that.

Originally posted by DarkPony

 

 but you really need to look up the meaning of "constructive criticism". "C'est le ton qui fait la musique,"; it's not what you say but how you say it.

Pretty much this. One can say anything they want but if one says it in a way that makes the audience think then it's worth far more than someone getting up on a soap box and ranting because they haven't learned how to express themselves.

Babies do this. It's called crying and all it does is draw attention to them and make people realize there is a problem. That's it.