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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Please, old gamers, read this and tell me if im the only one -.-"

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  User Deleted
2/12/12 1:49:47 AM#121
Originally posted by wrekognize
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by wrekognize
Originally posted by LadyNoh

GRINDING IS BORING. seriously. do you quake with excitement with the thought of killing the same mob for the next 3-6 hours. if your life is so terribly dull that it is appealing to you, seek mental help.

 

I feel the exact same way about people who grind quest after quest in order to advance their character.  For me, I enjoy the freedom of killing the same mob 3-6 hours if I want. Or, completeing a dungeon for a few hours to advance. Or, hunting locked chests and fighting mobs in order to open them in order to advance my skill. Or, Etc... Give me multiple options, not just damn quest after quest. That is the true grind.

Well in a mob grind game you cannot escape the mob grind at all.

Whereas in a quest game you can still grind if you want (alone or in groups), or you can choose to do quests (which are individually optional.)  More variety, more options, more freedom.

Not true. Because in today's MMO, they design the progression in a way that makes it nearly impossible to "grind". Questing is basically you're only option. The only game I saw accomplish this was SWG NGE (believe it or not).  None quest driven games could offer the grind, quests, dungeon runs, different type missions and etc.  Current quest driven MMOs do not aim for this type of freedom. Questing is the grind.

Grinding is ALWAYS an option, no matter what the game is like (questing or otherwise). You don't have to follow the quests to get to the end-game.

Hell, back in the day, there were leveling guides for WoW where grinding was the quickest, preffered leveling option for those who wanted to level quickly. It may not be the same now, but if you prefer grinding mob after mob rather than doing quests, the options is ALWAYS available to you, whether a slower option or not.

It's in no way "nearly impossible" to grind levels today. Or, it's no harder to grind through levels today than it was to be FORCED to grind through levels for years back in the day.

If you can't stop yourself from questing, then it means the questing is more fun than grinding. Period.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 7002

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

2/12/12 4:35:11 AM#122

I used to be against instances myself but there is definitely a good place for them.You have to first realize that there is only so much content to go around per level,yet there is thousands of users per server.This means theere is no way possible to have enough content for all without ruining it for each other.

You get your friends together to go do a quest line inside instance A,but wait there is 20 other groups of friends doing the same content.Now all your named or boss or mobs are dead leaving you with an empty dungeon.Ok well you might have some VERY patient groups that are willing to wait,but hold on,the first groups like the drops,so they are staying behind to also wait and camp the spawns,so nobody will be happy.

The leveling curve is antoher tough subject to fix in a perfect way.First one has to ask is WHY are we worried about the leveling curve?Since when does a level number mean anything?It is just like real life,you don't win by getting older,you don't turn 50 then say "I WIN".it really should not matter if level 1 takes 5 months or level 50 takes 3 months.

A game should be about a constant input of game material that allows the user of a role playijng game to continue forever with content.I feel the reason that level numbers have always been used is that devs lack the effort or ability to create compelling content that keeps players coming back.However using a level number seems to be a sort of carrot on a stick that lures players into  coming back to attain the max level for some false feeling of satisfaction.Objectively you cannot see any reason what so ever that a level number gives any satisfaction,after all it is just a number but it seems that soemehow it does lol.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1034

2/12/12 4:51:50 AM#123


Originally posted by wrekognize
Because in today's MMO, they design the progression in a way that makes it nearly impossible to "grind". Questing is basically you're only option. The only game I saw accomplish this was SWG NGE (believe it or not).

You might like to check out Rift. I've been playing that lately for the first time, and leveling quite slowly, because I do enjoy questing, and also rifting, which involves a lot of travel time. That's cool, I have no problem with slow leveling, especially since it's not THAT slow in absolute terms - I'm pretty sure I'll be at level cap inside my free month.


But I've definitely noticed that killing mobs earns a LOT more xp a lot more quickly than questing. You would definitely level faster by grinding than you would by questing, if that's what you want to do.

  gordiflu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 764

2/12/12 6:21:33 AM#124
Originally posted by Starpower

All these great features of old, were inconveniences. That's why we have MMO-Lite today.

 

Instances was made to combat fighting over spawns and rediculous group lists, not to mention other people sending trains of mobs to your location wiping your group. You and I may think this adds a fun unpredictable risk factor, that makes it that much more great, doesn't mean others felt the same way. There were some real hardcore nerd raging going on back then, by people that simply couldn't handle that type of mechanics emotionally

 

All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there

 

None instanced dungeons helped foster community. You would help other groups with bad pulls if you happened to be in the vicinity. You would help recover their corpses if they wiped. People used the general chat in whatever dungeon they were camping to chat with other groups in the same area, which again meant you got to know people outside your own guild or circle of friends. I've had some fun conversations in lower guk late nights camping that haste sash/ykesha.

 

Sometimes while waiting for a spot in a group you would hang around helping out with heals and buffs etc. This is something completely missing in todays MMOs because not only have we done away with open dungeons but buffs too, that actually made a difference. We only get 1 tenth of them if even that. Take SWTOR as an example or even Rift. You get 1 buff to cast on others that's it. Two if you are lucky. What MMO today do you have people out there asking for buffs. Practically none.

 

The downside to all the "positive" things was frustations of dying by some other players hands, because they ran past your group with 10 mobs on their tail. You had to find something to do while being on the list to get a group in a good xp spot. If you wanted to raid, you had to rush it, or you would be kicking and and screaming at that other guild who beat you to the punch, while you were preparing. Or worse case scenario a jerkoff guild with a dedicated group running interference for you so you couldn't prepare in time

 

So yes you can't have it all. You can't whine about kill stealing, mob trains and griefers getting you killed for fun while at the same time complain todays game has no community and how instances are the devil. You along with everybody else are the reason for that

 

 

 

I am afraid gamers were happy with that. All that changed to attract the non-gamers. This is one of the reasons why WoW has so much success. It's done with the non-gamers in mind.

  FrostWyrm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1038

2/12/12 10:31:08 AM#125
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Cuathon

Well obviously its much harder to make a game that appeals to casuals while also being awesome. That is because games have to pick their audience.

Vanguard tried to offer a game for noncasuals but Sigil ran out of cash developing their game

- can only hope someone else tries to create a noncasual game and does not run out of cash ;)

Sigil spent too much dev time and money on graphics. A really good sandbox has to sacrifice graphics due to small audience.

They spent $2m of their own money buying out of their publishing contract with Microsoft because M$ didn't share their vision for the game. This left them short on cash and lost in limbo without a publisher for a while until Sony picked them up and basically fired the entire staff except for whats-his-face (effectively dismantling Sigil), who stayed on as a poster boy but had little to do with the further development of the game.

  garry

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/05
Posts: 264

2/12/12 10:36:46 AM#126

Lord - the 'I know better than anyone' complainers strike again with the same ole refrain. Reusable talking points cause nothing makes you happy. Ad Nauseum! Geeeze - give it a rest!

  StonesDK

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

2/12/12 2:47:26 PM#127
Originally posted by gordiflu
Originally posted by Starpower

All these great features of old, were inconveniences. That's why we have MMO-Lite today.

 

Instances was made to combat fighting over spawns and rediculous group lists, not to mention other people sending trains of mobs to your location wiping your group. You and I may think this adds a fun unpredictable risk factor, that makes it that much more great, doesn't mean others felt the same way. There were some real hardcore nerd raging going on back then, by people that simply couldn't handle that type of mechanics emotionally

 

All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there

 

None instanced dungeons helped foster community. You would help other groups with bad pulls if you happened to be in the vicinity. You would help recover their corpses if they wiped. People used the general chat in whatever dungeon they were camping to chat with other groups in the same area, which again meant you got to know people outside your own guild or circle of friends. I've had some fun conversations in lower guk late nights camping that haste sash/ykesha.

 

Sometimes while waiting for a spot in a group you would hang around helping out with heals and buffs etc. This is something completely missing in todays MMOs because not only have we done away with open dungeons but buffs too, that actually made a difference. We only get 1 tenth of them if even that. Take SWTOR as an example or even Rift. You get 1 buff to cast on others that's it. Two if you are lucky. What MMO today do you have people out there asking for buffs. Practically none.

 

The downside to all the "positive" things was frustations of dying by some other players hands, because they ran past your group with 10 mobs on their tail. You had to find something to do while being on the list to get a group in a good xp spot. If you wanted to raid, you had to rush it, or you would be kicking and and screaming at that other guild who beat you to the punch, while you were preparing. Or worse case scenario a jerkoff guild with a dedicated group running interference for you so you couldn't prepare in time

 

So yes you can't have it all. You can't whine about kill stealing, mob trains and griefers getting you killed for fun while at the same time complain todays game has no community and how instances are the devil. You along with everybody else are the reason for that

 

 

 

I am afraid gamers were happy with that. All that changed to attract the non-gamers. This is one of the reasons why WoW has so much success. It's done with the non-gamers in mind.

WoW was created by ex EQ players and not the ones who tried it for a month and quit because they couldn't hack it either.

If you remember back thinking gamers were happy with the way EQ did things then you have a really bad memory or selective memory. That happiness you describe came much later after all the MMO-lite games came out. Then people started longing for the things they helped destroy. As I said in my earlier post. Gamers often ask for things, they have no idea how will impact them in the long run.

 

Now a whole decade later, we have a gaming generation who was never a part of the MMO golden years, with absolutely no clue of what us old timers are missing from the new breed of MMOs. All they know are instanced instant gratification MMOs where your source of social interaction only comes from your own guild. If you try to explain it to them you are met with a question mark and the comment "just join a guild"

  thunberg123

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/17/09
Posts: 21

2/14/12 1:21:08 PM#128

agree with some of TS points.

 

 

Max gear should be almost impossible to get. U should have to choose which part you want and after all its not sure u still should get it. There should be like a 0.09% drop of best items else there is NONE at all epicness wielding them.

And there shouldnt be any fuking patches every 6 month making everyone starting from the same level again. So USELESS and BORING.  

 

 

I also want to add a point that i want to see in new MMMOS and that is that a lvl 1 should still somehow be useful in highend guilds somehow. Like a 12 year old still could get water in real wars and fix food/water or try make some scratches to the oponents same should be in a good MMOPVPRPG.

 

Atm and probably for the next coming 5-10 years ill be only playing Strategy games Or play MMO only bcs of RPG because MMO overall is too far behind where i want it to be.  Only DarkFall and EvE seems somewhere close.

 

 

 

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

2/14/12 2:26:48 PM#129
Originally posted by Timukas

Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple. 

And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.

 

I would say they're more interested in controling your experience more than anything else.   Which, of course, destroys community and emergent game play leaving you playing a sterile, soul-less solo-player MMO.  

In short, when control-freaks design MMOs...   They just copy WoW, only make it worse with their 'single-player enhancements' that further destroy social involvment... 

Take SWTOR...   First MMO I've ever felt alone in...    Once we got past the first couple of weeks and all the "oh wow" posts, almost nobody, except a few trolls I had to blacklist, would talk....    I'd play four or five hours and there might be 20 senetences...    Mostly 'where is the GTM?' or 'where is my trainer' or 'where are the vendors' and the answers to them...   And it was no better in guild chat.    There'd be 25, 30 people on (in the early days, by the time I quit it was 4 or 5 at most) and nobody would say anything...   You try to start a conversation...   People were just out soloing...   Not interested in community...

May as well play Skyrim.   Takes a good 300+ hours to finish everything and you don't have to rent it every month...

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4125

2/14/12 2:48:55 PM#130

Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.

 

Take instances. Before instances popular dungeons were a clusterf--k of selfish individuals and groups griefing each other's chance to do what they went there to do. It was similar to what you still see these days during the opening days of any MMO with people competing to tag that one named mob that is required for that quest chain...except 10 times worse.

 

Trading in the early days? You spent hours spamming chat channels because AHs didn't exist and the act of trading itself was risky and involved the very real possibility of being scammed... which would be followed by another hour of insults in chat channels because the only recourse to being ripped-off was to try to ruin the reputation of the scammer on that server.

 

Death Penalties... corpse runs to recover your equipment were time consuming PITA which resulted in further deaths since you were trying to survive the area that killed you in the first place except with less gear and death penalties now...no thanks.

 

Otoh I detest the end-game gear sets that everyone must have--usually one for PVE and one for PVP--that all look the same. I find this inevitable equality boring as hell. There is just no randomness to gear or loot any more for fear that those who didn't luck out with their drops will whine and complain abouy it being unfair...forced equality for the masses is just boring. Worse still, there's just no individuality.

 

Staged PVP battlegrounds with scoreboards and rewards. There has never been a better PVP system than what existed in DAOC in the early days. People PVP'd for fun and prestige, not because you got to have the ultimate PVP uniform. You'd think the evolution of MMO PVP would have meant more of that but perhaps with better technology resulting in less lag in battles with 300+ players. Instead they've opted for importing the limited scenarios from FPS games into MMOs and called it PVP...because, technically it is player vs. player. It's also a repetitive boring activity that bears no resemblance to real fluid PVP. It's about as much fun as reading "Goodnight Moon" 72 times because it's your fave... it works for 2-year-olds I guess.

 

The stagnant sameness of all "Big Budget" MMOs these days is really depressing for fans of the genre. It's just like the bad old days of movies when the big studios dictated what you could see in 99% of theaters. Sure you could find the odd good, usually foreign, independent movie, but you had to travel to some roach-infested little theater somewhere to find it....then along came Miramax. What the MMO genre needs is some ballsy guy like Harvey Winestein to come along and make our own version of Miramax. There are some good creative MMO ideas out there but they're getting burried due to lack of development and promotional cash. They're getting released way too early because they've run out of development cash and consequently attract only the most devoted of hardcore fans...imagine if they had real $$$ backing them...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20569

2/14/12 2:57:38 PM#131
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by Timukas

Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple. 

And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.

 

I would say they're more interested in controling your experience more than anything else.   Which, of course, destroys community and emergent game play leaving you playing a sterile, soul-less solo-player MMO.  

In short, when control-freaks design MMOs...   They just copy WoW, only make it worse with their 'single-player enhancements' that further destroy social involvment... 

Take SWTOR...   First MMO I've ever felt alone in...    Once we got past the first couple of weeks and all the "oh wow" posts, almost nobody, except a few trolls I had to blacklist, would talk....    I'd play four or five hours and there might be 20 senetences...    Mostly 'where is the GTM?' or 'where is my trainer' or 'where are the vendors' and the answers to them...   And it was no better in guild chat.    There'd be 25, 30 people on (in the early days, by the time I quit it was 4 or 5 at most) and nobody would say anything...   You try to start a conversation...   People were just out soloing...   Not interested in community...

May as well play Skyrim.   Takes a good 300+ hours to finish everything and you don't have to rent it every month...

You can't play flashpoint in Skyrim.

You can't run a dungeon with 4 others in a single player RPG. You can't run a 10/25 man raid solo. You can't run a battleground without other players.

On the flip side, what is this obsession with chatting in a MMO. If you want to chat, chat with your guildies or go to a chat room. MMORPG is a GAME. And certainly when i am in a raid, there are LOTS of conversation about the raid, and what we should do to beat the boss.

 

  StonesDK

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

2/14/12 2:59:08 PM#132

 



Originally posted by Iselin
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.


All those things you slam, pretty much required you to make contact with another human being, forcing you to be social. Often with somebody you didn't know beforehand.

 

As "horrible" as those mechanics where, they also helped foster community. I played EQ extensively for many years since it's launch and griefing happened but it wasn't an everyday every moment occurance as you want to paint it as. The community was pretty good at policing itself. Sure those mechanics had it's problems but there's no denying it brought people together.

 

As much as those mechanics are archaic and punishing, taking those mechanics away has just made everybody more indiffrent towards games and their fellow players today. If that's a good or bad thing I let you decide for yourself. I know what the answer is for me

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20569

2/14/12 3:34:48 PM#133
Originally posted by Starpower

 



Originally posted by Iselin
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.


All those things you slam, pretty much required you to make contact with another human being, forcing you to be social. Often with somebody you didn't know beforehand.

 

As "horrible" as those mechanics where, they also helped foster community. I played EQ extensively for many years since it's launch and griefing happened but it wasn't an everyday every moment occurance as you want to paint it as. The community was pretty good at policing itself. Sure those mechanics had it's problems but there's no denying it brought people together.

 

As much as those mechanics are archaic and punishing, taking those mechanics away has just made everybody more indiffrent towards games and their fellow players today. If that's a good or bad thing I let you decide for yourself. I know what the answer is for me

Any "forcing" is a bad thing. I don't see why forcing one to social is a good thing.

This "community" thing is way overblown.

If the core game is not fun, no amount of community can save it from being a bad game. I would much rather to play a good game with my friends than trying to be friends with everyone in the game.

  Kendane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/11
Posts: 222

2/14/12 4:23:01 PM#134
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by Timukas

Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple. 

And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.

 

I would say they're more interested in controling your experience more than anything else.   Which, of course, destroys community and emergent game play leaving you playing a sterile, soul-less solo-player MMO.  

In short, when control-freaks design MMOs...   They just copy WoW, only make it worse with their 'single-player enhancements' that further destroy social involvment... 

Take SWTOR...   First MMO I've ever felt alone in...    Once we got past the first couple of weeks and all the "oh wow" posts, almost nobody, except a few trolls I had to blacklist, would talk....    I'd play four or five hours and there might be 20 senetences...    Mostly 'where is the GTM?' or 'where is my trainer' or 'where are the vendors' and the answers to them...   And it was no better in guild chat.    There'd be 25, 30 people on (in the early days, by the time I quit it was 4 or 5 at most) and nobody would say anything...   You try to start a conversation...   People were just out soloing...   Not interested in community...

May as well play Skyrim.   Takes a good 300+ hours to finish everything and you don't have to rent it every month...

You can't play flashpoint in Skyrim.

You can't run a dungeon with 4 others in a single player RPG. You can't run a 10/25 man raid solo. You can't run a battleground without other players.

On the flip side, what is this obsession with chatting in a MMO. If you want to chat, chat with your guildies or go to a chat room. MMORPG is a GAME. And certainly when i am in a raid, there are LOTS of conversation about the raid, and what we should do to beat the boss.

 

 Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.

Course the main problem with non instanced raids and such is the "elite" guild basically claiming "ownership" of the zone. Saw that a few times. Regardless many, perhaps even most MMO players don't care about getting to know the community and only care about getitng the shinyist piece of gear before everyone else. Since they already have their guild they've been a part of for years, they have no interest in anyone else. So in the end....meh no clue. I'm sure more standard themepark mmos will come out, and they will be called "WoW clones" and garbage. If a updated EQ like game came out it would be called an "Asian grindfest" and garbage as well. Then there will be the people who enjoy the game.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4125

2/14/12 4:25:29 PM#135
Originally posted by Starpower

 



Originally posted by Iselin
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.


All those things you slam, pretty much required you to make contact with another human being, forcing you to be social. Often with somebody you didn't know beforehand.

 

As "horrible" as those mechanics where, they also helped foster community. I played EQ extensively for many years since it's launch and griefing happened but it wasn't an everyday every moment occurance as you want to paint it as. The community was pretty good at policing itself. Sure those mechanics had it's problems but there's no denying it brought people together.

 

As much as those mechanics are archaic and punishing, taking those mechanics away has just made everybody more indiffrent towards games and their fellow players today. If that's a good or bad thing I let you decide for yourself. I know what the answer is for me

Horrible is horrible and good riddance. I guess "joint mysery fosters community" could appeal to masochists.

 

I never had any problem making new friends and feeling a true sense of community by having fun playing well-implemented aspects of an MMO together.

 

It's the emphasis on individual rewards that hurts communities, First among those is the accumulation of PVP currency by repetitive battleground runs in order to acquire the needed PVP gear with over-emphasized stats in order to be competitive at the next level of PVP BGs... ad nauseum.

 

When stats from gear becomes the determining factor in your ability to compete or complete content, self-gearing becomes the predominant goal and activity...which is a self-centered solitary pursuit. Even if you have to group to obtain the better gear, you're still essentially pursuing a self-centered goal and the grouping is viewed as a necessary inconvenience to be accomplished as quickly as humanly possible. That's the community killer, not the lack of crappy mechanics that existed in the early days of MMOs.

 

Minimize the influence of stats on gear--hell, get rid of it alltogether (except perhaps armor value) and just use it for looks. Develop proficiency through use of skills (somehwat like Skyrim) and provide meaningful group objectives and rewards for participation (for example, a better version of Relic buffs from DAOC.)

 

Communities are fostered by designing fun group activities--especially if the activity itself is its own reward. Corpse runs, crappy trading interfaces and kill stealing don't do anything of the sort.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

2/14/12 5:16:43 PM#136
Originally posted by Iselin

Horrible is horrible and good riddance. I guess "joint mysery fosters community" could appeal to masochists.

 

I never had any problem making new friends and feeling a true sense of community by having fun playing well-implemented aspects of an MMO together.

 

It's the emphasis on individual rewards that hurts communities, First among those is the accumulation of PVP currency by repetitive battleground runs in order to acquire the needed PVP gear with over-emphasized stats in order to be competitive at the next level of PVP BGs... ad nauseum.

 

When stats from gear becomes the determining factor in your ability to compete or complete content, self-gearing becomes the predominant goal and activity...which is a self-centered solitary pursuit. Even if you have to group to obtain the better gear, you're still essentially pursuing a self-centered goal and the grouping is viewed as a necessary inconvenience to be accomplished as quickly as humanly possible. That's the community killer, not the lack of crappy mechanics that existed in the early days of MMOs.

 

Minimize the influence of stats on gear--hell, get rid of it alltogether (except perhaps armor value) and just use it for looks. Develop proficiency through use of skills (somehwat like Skyrim) and provide meaningful group objectives and rewards for participation (for example, a better version of Relic buffs from DAOC.)

 

Communities are fostered by designing fun group activities--especially if the activity itself is its own reward. Corpse runs, crappy trading interfaces and kill stealing don't do anything of the sort.

In which universe half of what you say is even remotely possible and in which universe the other half already isnt offered by non-mmorpg games?

In which universe gear grind is self centered and skill grind isnt?

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20569

2/14/12 5:17:42 PM#137
Originally posted by Kendane

 

 Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.

 

I would take LFD cross realm any day.

1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?

2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.

  atticusbc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1074

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

2/14/12 5:30:29 PM#138

umm.... no. i wouldn't play a game that requires such a time investment. progressing so little isn't progress, it is (word of the day) stagnation. i have better things to do with my time than play a game that's exactly the same thing, over and over, for years. that's why i quit runescape, because i grew up and had better things to do with my time. that's (one of the reasons) why i'm excited for GW2, because i'll actually be able to hit cap without becoming a souless hobgoblin. i want my life, and i want my games. i shouldn't have to trade one for the other.

and to turn your idea around (the one that runs: why have a level cap if people just blast through to it): why have a level cap if the entire game is just a slog to get to it? sorry, but i want to play a game where i do things, not a game where i kill a million mobs to get one new spell.

finally: just because it takes a long time doesn't mean it's hard. i agree: mmos these days are easy, but not because you can hit cap in a week. that has everything to do with mechanics, and nothing to do with an unholy grind who's mere implementation should be grounds for being slapped with a live carp.

the grind is dying, thank the gods. may it never return.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

2/14/12 5:32:24 PM#139
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kendane

 

 Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.

 

I would take LFD cross realm any day.

1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?

2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.

1) if you have enough friends you should feel no need to use any finder tool :)

2) the loot is just a cherry on the top, the annoying symetry is more in the area of pulling your weight, showing any interest in what is happening and general behavior. A single server is just a smaller pool where you can more easily remember the "annoying" and "not annoying" people, and maybe contact (or ignore) them directly.

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20569

2/14/12 5:36:25 PM#140
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kendane

 

 Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.

 

I would take LFD cross realm any day.

1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?

2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.

1) if you have enough friends you should feel no need to use any finder tool :)

2) the loot is just a cherry on the top, the annoying symetry is more in the area of pulling your weight, showing any interest in what is happening and general behavior. A single server is just a smaller pool where you can more easily remember the "annoying" and "not annoying" people, and maybe contact (or ignore) them directly.

Flame on!

:)

1) I do NOT want a large group of friends so that i have enough to form a group at any time i want to play. A few friends are enough. Too many is a hassle. And even if you have 10 friends, can you guarantee a full group any time you want to play? Plus, LFD teleport me & my friends to the dungeon. There is no reason not wanting it.

2) No need for a single server. If i don't like the group, i quit. Most people are bearable. I always kicked undergear people who cannot pull their weight. If a group is wiping on trash, i am out of here. In fact, it is EASIER with random people since you don't have to worry about they remembering you rage-quiting.

 

 

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