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General Discussion  » Thankful for Elin Changes

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271 posts found
  Benjola

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 716

2/13/12 1:53:04 AM#221

I'm very anti-censorship, pro freedom of expression and pro art, hell I live in the most liberal country in the world but when it comes to children I'm ultra conservative.

It doesn't matter if they are drawn, animated, cartoon or anything in between, you mess with children or anything resembling  a child in any way and  it's a different ball game.

Nothing comes before it.

I understand that people who aren't parents yet aren't seeing it my way though, it's ok.

 

There's art and there's kitch and bad taste, and Bluehole taking the 'sex sells' moto so far and tap dancing around such a hot topic and taboo is a bad taste at best.

 

I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

2/13/12 1:54:25 AM#222
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by heartless

Let me rephrase my question again, since you, and other proponents of Elins seem to avoid it. Do you or do you not, consider a cartoon depicting children in a pornographic manner as OK?

 

Never understood that you asked that until now, keep in mind not everyone has english as their native language.

About the question I doesnt matter one bit to me if there are cartoons with what you say, I dont need to read it just because it exists. It doesnt hurt anyone even if it exists just the same way violent games and movies doesnt do so which means I have no objection to its existance. Clear enough?

 

EDIT: Clarification.

The question was to find out whether or not you consider depiction of children in such a manner to be morally wrong or right.

No worries, english is not my native language as well.

I consider myself to be quite openminded and I try to see other peoples opinions. And while I can see your point of view I cant agree with it, might be due to all this talk about pedophilia when it comes to shutting down sites and stuff such as how laws were used in denmark (i think it was)... the discussion and taboo mark is becoming a weapon to push censorship laws through because "it is just for the sake of the children" and if you argue against it they will just try to bust your ass and tell you that you are a pedophilie or something along those lines.

I agree with you on the censorship issue. It does tend to go overboard. Politicians and public figures tend to use it for their benefit, while showing complete disregard for other people's rights.

However, there are certain issues where a bit of censorship is justified. In my opinion, this Elin issue is one of them. While it is a video game, it is obvious that characters were animated to move in a provacative manner and the short skirts that "accidently" reveal the character's underwear during movement and combat are a clear sign of the designers' intent.

  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 779

2/13/12 2:00:06 AM#223
Originally posted by Benjola

I'm very anti-censorship, pro freedom of expression and pro art, hell I live in the most liberal country in the world but when it comes to children I'm ultra conservative.

It doesn't matter if they are drawn, animated, cartoon or anything in between, you mess with children or anything resembling  a child in any way and  it's a different ball game.

Nothing comes before it.

I understand that people who aren't parents yet aren't seeing it my way though, it's ok.

 

There's art and there's kitch and bad taste, and Bluehole taking the 'sex sells' moto so far and tap dancing around such a hot topic and taboo is a bad taste at best.

 

Well if you admit to being ultra conservative then perhaps you should accept other peoples more open views on the matter, wether they have kids or not. Maybe this game is something you should avoid because it disturbs you.

 

EDIT: Actually what i said could apply to you as well Heartless, if it disturbs you that much it could just be as simple as that you should avoid it alltogether. As long as its not breaking any laws it shouldnt really be an issue for you if you dont play it.

  eyelolled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3103

I am more than some of my parts

2/13/12 2:04:13 AM#224
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by heartless

Let me rephrase my question again, since you, and other proponents of Elins seem to avoid it. Do you or do you not, consider a cartoon depicting children in a pornographic manner as OK?

Just out of curiosity, do you consider seeing a childs tummy or thigh as pornographic?

Depends on the context. If the child is at a beach or a pool, then obviously no. However, if the child was presented like they are on "Toddlers and Tiaras" or how Elin are presented in this game, then yes.

The unfortunate thing is that it's not pornographic, and exaggerating the facts does not make your point more credible. The Elin portrayal may very well be offensive, disturbing and in poor taste, but it's not pornographic.  Implying that if a person doesn't care about it means they are supporting child pornography, just makes you a radical.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

2/13/12 2:07:37 AM#225
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by heartless

Let me rephrase my question again, since you, and other proponents of Elins seem to avoid it. Do you or do you not, consider a cartoon depicting children in a pornographic manner as OK?

Just out of curiosity, do you consider seeing a childs tummy or thigh as pornographic?

Depends on the context. If the child is at a beach or a pool, then obviously no. However, if the child was presented like they are on "Toddlers and Tiaras" or how Elin are presented in this game, then yes.

The unfortunate thing is that it's not pornographic, and exaggerating the facts does not make your point more credible. The Elin portrayal may very well be offensive, disturbing and in poor taste, but it's not pornographic.  Implying that if a person doesn't care about it means they are supporting child pornography, just makes you a radical.

It actually can be considered "pornographic" if you look up the meaning of the word.

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5827

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/13/12 2:08:14 AM#226
Originally posted by baritone3k

There was a lot of talk on both sides of the argument when the Elin changes were announced, and the initial concept images looked pretty lame. Now that it is official and we are in beta, we can make a better judgment.

 

The changes to the Elin are subtle and take the creepiness factor down to 2 from 8.

 

The additions of shorts instead of bikini bottoms now looks natural, I personally may end up playing an Elin Warrior as an alt whereas I would have avoided the race completely prior.

 

Anyone else happy they changed them?

im completely neutral with the change. I didnt see the problem before, and i dont see it now so im fine with any looks the developer decide to give. One thing is certain, Asian mmorpgs tend to be very anime inspired and sexy. If Americans want the asian game, they have to take what they see or walk away. Everyone complains on how childish wow is and everyone plays it and nobody ask for changes in that regard.

Im having a blast with my female castanic berserker. Planning on re-rolling elin on second beta, didnt like the other races.

just sayin

  eyelolled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3103

I am more than some of my parts

2/13/12 2:15:40 AM#227
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by heartless

Let me rephrase my question again, since you, and other proponents of Elins seem to avoid it. Do you or do you not, consider a cartoon depicting children in a pornographic manner as OK?

Just out of curiosity, do you consider seeing a childs tummy or thigh as pornographic?

Depends on the context. If the child is at a beach or a pool, then obviously no. However, if the child was presented like they are on "Toddlers and Tiaras" or how Elin are presented in this game, then yes.

The unfortunate thing is that it's not pornographic, and exaggerating the facts does not make your point more credible. The Elin portrayal may very well be offensive, disturbing and in poor taste, but it's not pornographic.  Implying that if a person doesn't care about it means they are supporting child pornography, just makes you a radical.

It actually can be considered "pornographic" if you look up the meaning of the word.

Pretty much anything can be considered subject matter intended for sexual arousal.  Latex. Feet. Sheep. Apple Pie.  

 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  Dren_Utogi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1479

2/13/12 2:16:34 AM#228
Originally posted by Benjola
Originally posted by I_Return

 

who cares what other thing, why do you have to be "right" and be the censor for what other should or should not be allowed to view. It is great you think the change is good on. I think the change is a bad one, because of the censorship issue and where that road takes us in the future.

If you see "sexy" that is on you, and you alone. So the reality is, YOU have the problem, not the other way around.

These are some of those arguments I was talking about.

The first one where you act like some savior of art lol, protecting the 'vision' of the artists or some crap like that is just ..well.. naive.

I understand it though, it's probably age thing, you are prolly young and idealistic atm, don't worry, you'll grow out of it.

The second one is just silly and more of a defence mechanism for you then anything else, a desperate way to justify something that deep inside you know it's wrong.

Taboos are taboos for a reason...

 

why to you continue to try and censor what I;m viewing ? You are like President Bush and these pixelated characters are the "WMD's" .. Guess what, they only exist in YOUR MIND.

 

Do you see that you are the pervert, not me. You see sex, I see a fantasy race of little pear shaped people, You see unclothed children, I see a very distinct art style.

 

You keep repeating the same bullshit over and over again and adding a "lol" like it is supposed to me a humour conversation. I am dead serious on my position of censoring the arts, not matter what medium it is. Maybe if you where an artist of some kind you would understand the veiw point. It is hard for people who aren't endowed to wrap their mind around certain things Mr. Bush, but you need to learn and understand , that because I few assholes did something stupid, it doesn't mean the entire nation of civilians need to suffer for it.  Art is the same way Mr President. Your view on it , is YOURS and Yours alone.

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

2/13/12 2:22:37 AM#229
Originally posted by Kuro1n

EDIT: Actually what i said could apply to you as well Heartless, if it disturbs you that much it could just be as simple as that you should avoid it alltogether. As long as its not breaking any laws it shouldnt really be an issue for you if you dont play it.

I've said it numerous times before and I'll say it again, this whole Elin falls into a grey area. Technically it's not against the law but it's also not exactly moral.

Am I going to ignore the game because of how Elin are depicted in it? Probably not. The game has other issues that don't exactly enjoy and if anything I will ignore the game based on them. My view on the whole thing, and I believe that I made it clear over the many pages (lol), is that I don't support sexualized depiction of children in video games or any other media for that matter. I'm really openminded in a lot of things. I support gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia, legalization of not just marijuana but all drugs, even though I don't use them. Basically, whatever you want to do, as long as it's not hurting others, you have my blessings.

But we all have to draw the line somewhere and this is where I draw mine. There are other, unrelated, issues I feel just as strongly, if not more so, about but this is neither the time nor the place to discuss them.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

2/13/12 2:25:41 AM#230
Originally posted by eyelolled

Pretty much anything can be considered subject matter intended for sexual arousal.  Latex. Feet. Sheep. Apple Pie.  

 

Would probably depend on the context though, wouldn't you agree? An apple pie by itself is not pornographic, neither is a woman for that matter. Add a few "props" though and you're on your way to making a Bangbros classic.

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5827

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/13/12 2:30:05 AM#231
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Kuro1n

EDIT: Actually what i said could apply to you as well Heartless, if it disturbs you that much it could just be as simple as that you should avoid it alltogether. As long as its not breaking any laws it shouldnt really be an issue for you if you dont play it.

I've said it numerous times before and I'll say it again, this whole Elin falls into a grey area. Technically it's not against the law but it's also not exactly moral.

Am I going to ignore the game because of how Elin are depicted in it? Probably not. The game has other issues that don't exactly enjoy and if anything I will ignore the game based on them. My view on the whole thing, and I believe that I made it clear over the many pages (lol), is that I don't support sexualized depiction of children in video games or any other media for that matter. I'm really openminded in a lot of things. I support gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia, legalization of not just marijuana but all drugs, even though I don't use them. Basically, whatever you want to do, as long as it's not hurting others, you have my blessings.

But we all have to draw the line somewhere and this is where I draw mine. There are other, unrelated, issues I feel just as strongly, if not more so, about but this is neither the time nor the place to discuss them.

so you support abortion (killing a living being before its birth) but you cant act indiferent in front a virtual character like the elins?... tahts weird, some people are weird...

i wonder why Mortal kombat never got banned for being so violent with fatalities and promoting murders but they have to put more clothes on elins because its disturbing in the west..... thats funny lol

  eyelolled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3103

I am more than some of my parts

2/13/12 2:38:49 AM#232
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled

Pretty much anything can be considered subject matter intended for sexual arousal.  Latex. Feet. Sheep. Apple Pie.  

 

Would probably depend on the context though, wouldn't you agree? An apple pie by itself is not pornographic, neither is a woman for that matter. Add a few "props" though and you're on your way to making a Bangbros classic.

Actually, you don't need props, you just need the pervert. The pervert sees the sexuality in things that aren't sexual. The pervert lusts for the apple pie, or whatever their particular perversion is. It's the pervert that takes the innocent and looks at it with lust.

Like I said before, the Elin may be portrayed in poor taste, but it's not pornography.  If you see pornography, then thats because you see pornography, not because it is pornography.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

2/13/12 2:44:48 AM#233
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Kuro1n

EDIT: Actually what i said could apply to you as well Heartless, if it disturbs you that much it could just be as simple as that you should avoid it alltogether. As long as its not breaking any laws it shouldnt really be an issue for you if you dont play it.

I've said it numerous times before and I'll say it again, this whole Elin falls into a grey area. Technically it's not against the law but it's also not exactly moral.

Am I going to ignore the game because of how Elin are depicted in it? Probably not. The game has other issues that don't exactly enjoy and if anything I will ignore the game based on them. My view on the whole thing, and I believe that I made it clear over the many pages (lol), is that I don't support sexualized depiction of children in video games or any other media for that matter. I'm really openminded in a lot of things. I support gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia, legalization of not just marijuana but all drugs, even though I don't use them. Basically, whatever you want to do, as long as it's not hurting others, you have my blessings.

But we all have to draw the line somewhere and this is where I draw mine. There are other, unrelated, issues I feel just as strongly, if not more so, about but this is neither the time nor the place to discuss them.

so you support abortion (killing a living being before its birth) but you cant act indiferent in front a virtual character like the elins?... tahts weird, some people are weird...

i wonder why Mortal kombat never got banned for being so violent with fatalities and promoting murders but they have to put more clothes on elins because its disturbing in the west..... thats funny lol

During the early stages of embryonic development, yes. It's not techically a living being yet, just a clump of cells.

Violence in video games and sexual depiction of children in video games are two different things.{mod edit}

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

2/13/12 2:45:32 AM#234
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Kuro1n

EDIT: Actually what i said could apply to you as well Heartless, if it disturbs you that much it could just be as simple as that you should avoid it alltogether. As long as its not breaking any laws it shouldnt really be an issue for you if you dont play it.

I've said it numerous times before and I'll say it again, this whole Elin falls into a grey area. Technically it's not against the law but it's also not exactly moral.

Am I going to ignore the game because of how Elin are depicted in it? Probably not. The game has other issues that don't exactly enjoy and if anything I will ignore the game based on them. My view on the whole thing, and I believe that I made it clear over the many pages (lol), is that I don't support sexualized depiction of children in video games or any other media for that matter. I'm really openminded in a lot of things. I support gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia, legalization of not just marijuana but all drugs, even though I don't use them. Basically, whatever you want to do, as long as it's not hurting others, you have my blessings.

But we all have to draw the line somewhere and this is where I draw mine. There are other, unrelated, issues I feel just as strongly, if not more so, about but this is neither the time nor the place to discuss them.

so you support abortion (killing a living being before its birth) but you cant act indiferent in front a virtual character like the elins?... tahts weird, some people are weird...

i wonder why Mortal kombat never got banned for being so violent with fatalities and promoting murders but they have to put more clothes on elins because its disturbing in the west..... thats funny lol

Because adults suck and have had many years to build up all the bad karma that decides they've got what's coming...or something...kids are looked at as innocent and require protecting, it's something that's instilled in the culture. You can't expect people to just turn a blind eye to it just because another culture thinks differently about it. I'm pretty sure that you'll see giant penis sculptures decorating the landscape in certain parts of Japan (read about it in an article, don't remember where at specifically), and you won't see that here. But by the same token, it wasn't that long ago that showing pubic hair was illegal in Japan, even if you saw plenty of it in art over here. Cultures are funny like that, and they're not going to up and change on a whim just because someone wants to play a video game. Context people, context.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  Benjola

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 716

2/13/12 2:48:00 AM#235
Originally posted by eyelolled

Like I said before, the Elin may be portrayed in poor taste, but it's not pornography.  If you see pornography, then thats because you see pornography, not because it is pornography.

Same fail argument again lol.

Maybe read the thread to check many different views on it, it was discussed in lenght I think.

The fact is, there is a problem with the Elin, if there wasn't,  threads like this one wouldn't exist.

And this is not some isolated whining about FOTM classes or some nonsense like that from few posters, it's all over the internet including Tera itself.

Like I said, zone chat in game is 90% about pedos, Ellin players are getting abused all over the place, Ellin player = pedo, that's the word on Tera street lol.

Ignoring the issue and saying it's not there, is all in your head is just childish and silly attempt to RP a psychologist by clueless people that apperantly wouldn't recognize human psychology even if it bites them in the azz.

I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5827

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/13/12 2:55:49 AM#236
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
 

Because adults suck and have had many years to build up all the bad karma that decides they've got what's coming...or something...kids are looked at as innocent and require protecting, it's something that's instilled in the culture. You can't expect people to just turn a blind eye to it just because another culture thinks differently about it. I'm pretty sure that you'll see giant penis sculptures decorating the landscape in certain parts of Japan (read about it in an article, don't remember where at specifically), and you won't see that here. But by the same token, it wasn't that long ago that showing pubic hair was illegal in Japan, even if you saw plenty of it in art over here. Cultures are funny like that, and they're not going to up and change on a whim just because someone wants to play a video game. Context people, context.

there you have it... its an asian game made with assian culture and settings. Why change it to match our culture? we can always make our own game following our culture and rules. But your answer about my comparison from elins and mortal kombat is weird.... so it is completely normal to vote against elins  and give protection to a kid but we cant worry about walking out one night and getting stabbed by a psychopath ?  if elins can have bad influence on kids vs adults as people claim, mortal kombat will definitely turn people into murderers...

 

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

2/13/12 2:56:39 AM#237
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled

Pretty much anything can be considered subject matter intended for sexual arousal.  Latex. Feet. Sheep. Apple Pie.  

 

Would probably depend on the context though, wouldn't you agree? An apple pie by itself is not pornographic, neither is a woman for that matter. Add a few "props" though and you're on your way to making a Bangbros classic.

Actually, you don't need props, you just need the pervert. The pervert sees the sexuality in things that aren't sexual. The pervert lusts for the apple pie, or whatever their particular perversion is. It's the pervert that takes the innocent and looks at it with lust.

Like I said before, the Elin may be portrayed in poor taste, but it's not pornography.  If you see pornography, then thats because you see pornography, not because it is pornography.

The issue arises in how things are protrayed. A picture of a woman is just that--a picture of a woman. But if a woman in that picture were depicted in a provocative manner, it doesn't take a pervert to recognize what sort of emotions that picture was meant to evoke.

  Faynth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/11/06
Posts: 240

2/13/12 2:59:28 AM#238
Originally posted by Sentime

 

Not to point out the obvious, but an Eiin is NOT an underage little girl.

More then likely its some big dude on the other end playing a killer toon, if you insist on relating a geme to reality.

I do understand though that some people will be upset and think an Eiin might be the "gateway" to pedophelia, much like so  many think weed is a gateway to heroin.  Cause I understand most of humanity is mentally and emotianaly unevolved at best and flat out nuts at worst.

Hell even IF some sick people are wanking to video games i can have that better then same sick peeps out in the street (y'know real life, outside) preying on kids...

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5827

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/13/12 2:59:54 AM#239
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by eyelolled

Pretty much anything can be considered subject matter intended for sexual arousal.  Latex. Feet. Sheep. Apple Pie.  

 

Would probably depend on the context though, wouldn't you agree? An apple pie by itself is not pornographic, neither is a woman for that matter. Add a few "props" though and you're on your way to making a Bangbros classic.

Actually, you don't need props, you just need the pervert. The pervert sees the sexuality in things that aren't sexual. The pervert lusts for the apple pie, or whatever their particular perversion is. It's the pervert that takes the innocent and looks at it with lust.

Like I said before, the Elin may be portrayed in poor taste, but it's not pornography.  If you see pornography, then thats because you see pornography, not because it is pornography.

The issue arises in how things are protrayed. A picture of a woman is just that--a picture of a woman. But if a woman in that picture were depicted in a provocative manner, it doesn't take a pervert to recognize what sort of emotions that picture was meant to evoke.

if those emotions interfere with the progression of your character in the game, then the problem is in your head and not in the game.

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5827

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/13/12 3:05:47 AM#240
Originally posted by Jesterftk
Originally posted by Benjola
 

Like I said, zone chat in game is 90% about pedos, Ellin players are getting abused all over the place, Ellin player = pedo, that's the word on Tera street lol.

 

'word on WHAT street in TERA?? besides some sory individuals claiming that, i had nobody spewing this bullshit in my game sessions...

the chat was infested with trolls in all my beta sessions, trolling about the elins and the game alltogether. Just trolling very hard... even people made character named pedobears and crap and trolled more.... i dont understand why some people play a game, troll it to death and keep playing it

a good exaple of the trolling is that everyone playing an elin was supossed to be a pedo to roll that race.... plain stupid

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