Originally posted by lectrocuda

I guess the real question is why does a females body, regardless of her age, have to be sexualized. Even naked women are human beings as are naked little girls, the decision to sexualize them is not natural and is in fact a reaction to the indoctrination you have recieved through traditional institutions that serve to only perpetuate this patriarchy where females are somehow responsible for mens reactions to there bodies.

 

If you say that you are obsessed with sex and any female form in any manner causes you to have nasty thoughts, maybe you should thik about correcting your thought process instead of blaming the individual for having a body.

 

Thats what it comes down too?

Could a child not walk around naked without someone thinkng about sex?

 

My souse and I spend most of our time half naked, and there is no constant compulsion to have sexual intercourse.

 

I dont get the argument.

 

Feminimity is not a sexual object.

Excellent post

Seriously, this naive line "I don't see children therefore they are not and I don't find them sexualized therefore they aren't" that some of you are pushing needs to go, you are just embarrassing yourselves.

The developers intention in this game is crystal clear, they decided to bring out the sexy and they did it hardcore.

While I can appreciate the detailed work done on the boob physics as much as the next person, they obviously screwed the pooch on Ellin.

This isn't debatable so stop trying to spin it with childish arguments.

They screwed the pooch and they know it, is why they added changes in outfits.

I don't think the changes were sufficiant but regardless it's too little too late.

The damage is already done, area chat in game is filled with pedo talk, everyone playing an Ellin is ridiculed and viewed as a pedo.

It sucks for players that want to play Ellin for legit reasons like PVP hit-box reason or whatever but that's that.

Play an Ellin and prepare to be harrased in game, that's the result of the major screw up on Bluehole's part... so far, because if the game becomes smashing success and draw too much attension to itself I can see bigger problems in the future.

Originally posted by lectrocuda

I guess the real question is why does a females body, regardless of her age, have to be sexualized. Even naked women are human beings as are naked little girls, the decision to sexualize them is not natural and is in fact a reaction to the indoctrination you have recieved through traditional institutions that serve to only perpetuate this patriarchy where females are somehow responsible for mens reactions to there bodies.

 

If you say that you are obsessed with sex and any female form in any manner causes you to have nasty thoughts, maybe you should thik about correcting your thought process instead of blaming the individual for having a body.

 

Thats what it comes down too?

Could a child not walk around naked without someone thinkng about sex?

 

My souse and I spend most of our time half naked, and there is no constant compulsion to have sexual intercourse.

 

I dont get the argument.

 

Feminimity is not a sexual object.

That is the question you should ask TERA developers.

Originally posted by lectrocuda

I guess the real question is why does a females body, regardless of her age, have to be sexualized. Even naked women are human beings as are naked little girls, the decision to sexualize them is not natural and is in fact a reaction to the indoctrination you have recieved through traditional institutions that serve to only perpetuate this patriarchy where females are somehow responsible for mens reactions to there bodies.

 

If you say that you are obsessed with sex and any female form in any manner causes you to have nasty thoughts, maybe you should thik about correcting your thought process instead of blaming the individual for having a body.

 

Thats what it comes down too?

Could a child not walk around naked without someone thinkng about sex?

 

My souse and I spend most of our time half naked, and there is no constant compulsion to have sexual intercourse.

 

I dont get the argument.

 

Feminimity is not a sexual object.

Any society has things that are appropriate and things that are not. Whatever you and your spouse do behind closed doors, is your own personal issue. However, you don't exactly go to the supermarket half naked, do you?

Originally posted by I_Return

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Ecoces

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Originally posted by Ecoces

lol i love the idea that just because the lore says they aren't children that its ok to make them look like 10 year olds in panties.

That's not the reason why, it's okay because nobody cares about that in Korean culture where the game was developed. Not everywhere in the world has the same standards/social norms.

well then i am glad that i live in a country that doesn't objectify a 10 year old as sex symbols and considers it a "social norm".

 

i guess some western values ARE better.

Man you're American, dont they hae beauty pagents for 8 year olds? is that not objectifying? or are you being a typical American that condemns other cultures before taking a good hard look at your own?

Sure they have beauty pageants for little girls but they are not exactly mainstream. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of people who object to those pageants. The problem with using the "you Americans" argument is that you actually need to have a general idea of how the country is and not use the fringe elements of the American culture as an example. We have guns here too, doesn't mean that it's mainstream to go around shooting people.

Like I said in my previous post, a lot of this stuff is in the grey area of the law. Technically it is legal but not exactly moral.

One thing I have to comment on is the youtube video that was posted. That video, more than any argument made by me, or anyone else in this thread, solidified my point that the armor for the Elin race needs to be reworked. I mean skimpy dresses aside, some of the animations have the dress raise up and reveal the panties. That is simply not appropriate.

Why don;t you stop trying the censor the world to your bleiefs. You are failing to see the bigger picture of the argument.

 

You really want to get mad about scantaly clad children, google "Dance Moms"  , go get mad at that and leave Tera alone .

There is no "bigger picture" in this argument. The argument is whether or not it is appropriate to depict preteen girls in such a manner, in this game.

As far as that "Dance Moms" thing, should I start feeding the starving children in Africa too?

Don't care too much about the Elin change too much; but I do think they made the Elin's even uglier with their terribly done shorts. Doesn't look natural on them at all. It would have been better to just remake that armor set for the western crowd completely.

I do not care about elin and i will not play one but looking at some of these links it surprises me no one seems to notice how "deformed" they are? I can see why people would relate them to children but their hips/legs are as developed as a woman.. their heads are super big and their arms and legs so out of propotion compared to you normal kid...In the end it is just a fantasy game with non real characters in a fantasy world with a fantasy lore.

Originally posted by Xyched

a) To my knowledge, there's no permadeath. The character can never "die" in any realistic sense. Furthermore, these characters hardly represent actual people. They don't eat, bathe, sleep, form relationships, have families or friends, etc. 

 

I don't see how this argument only applies to justifying violence and somehow has nothing to do with underdressed underage girls.

Originally posted by Xyched

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Ecoces

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Originally posted by Ecoces

lol i love the idea that just because the lore says they aren't children that its ok to make them look like 10 year olds in panties.

That's not the reason why, it's okay because nobody cares about that in Korean culture where the game was developed. Not everywhere in the world has the same standards/social norms.

well then i am glad that i live in a country that doesn't objectify a 10 year old as sex symbols and considers it a "social norm".

 

i guess some western values ARE better.

Man you're American, dont they hae beauty pagents for 8 year olds? is that not objectifying? or are you being a typical American that condemns other cultures before taking a good hard look at your own?

I've heard of beauty pagents for children existing, but I've never seen one, for what it's worth. That being said, even the ones I've heard of don't promote the sexualization of the children in any way. The children aren't scored on their sex appeal, it's more an exercise in confidence and preparation. I'm not defending them, but you're making them sound like some kiddy strip club.

Heres a Youtube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64t_30NKwkw you really only need to watch the first 30 seconds and you will see the Elin got nothing on those pageants, and this is REAL.

Originally posted by Benjola

I think the concensus was that Asia in general and Korea in particular being this different culture where they tolerate sexualization of young girls did their thing.

 

See the youtube clip I linked.

Originally posted by Majinash

Originally posted by Xyched

a) To my knowledge, there's no permadeath. The character can never "die" in any realistic sense. Furthermore, these characters hardly represent actual people. They don't eat, bathe, sleep, form relationships, have families or friends, etc. 

 

I don't see how this argument only applies to justifying violence and somehow has nothing to do with underdressed underage girls.

it's how we as humans perceive things. Our views, norms and values are influenced by the society we live in. We can justify violence in video games because we know that it's not real but depiction of a child in a somewhat sexual manner is considered immoral. Eventhough it's not a real person, it's still a child presented in a manner to which we are not only unacustomed to but also consider wrong.

Originally posted by Lille7

Originally posted by Xyched

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Ecoces

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Originally posted by Ecoces

lol i love the idea that just because the lore says they aren't children that its ok to make them look like 10 year olds in panties.

That's not the reason why, it's okay because nobody cares about that in Korean culture where the game was developed. Not everywhere in the world has the same standards/social norms.

well then i am glad that i live in a country that doesn't objectify a 10 year old as sex symbols and considers it a "social norm".

 

i guess some western values ARE better.

Man you're American, dont they hae beauty pagents for 8 year olds? is that not objectifying? or are you being a typical American that condemns other cultures before taking a good hard look at your own?

I've heard of beauty pagents for children existing, but I've never seen one, for what it's worth. That being said, even the ones I've heard of don't promote the sexualization of the children in any way. The children aren't scored on their sex appeal, it's more an exercise in confidence and preparation. I'm not defending them, but you're making them sound like some kiddy strip club.

 

Heres a Youtube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64t_30NKwkw you really only need to watch the first 30 seconds and you will see the Elin got nothing on those pageants, and this is REAL.

Originally posted by Benjola

I think the concensus was that Asia in general and Korea in particular being this different culture where they tolerate sexualization of young girls did their thing.

 

See the youtube clip I linked.

Again, the beauty pageants in question are done by the fringe element of our society and many Americans view them as inapropriate and immoral. There is a lot of crazy shit going on in the world and using those pageants as an argument to support your point is along the same lines as saying that all muslims are terrorists. It's just plain ignorant.

Originally posted by Vrika

Originally posted by brody71

i dont know much about korean culture, so i have to ask,

Does anyone know why they are obsessed with scantily clad cartoon little girls?  Is it a religion thing?

I'd say it's more just a cultular difference.

Think about movies made here. How many of them feature murdering, even though everyone considers that murdering another person is horrible crime?

In Japan and Korea it's more common and more accepted to add some erotic themes, even about persons who are clearly underage. But that doesn't make them obsessed pedophiles any more than people in west are all obsessed murderers.

 

Not sure about Korea, but in Japan the national legal age for sexual intercourse is 14 I believe, However each prefecture can have their own laws regarding that (most make it 16 or 18 iirc). This is why stuff like loli's and such in japan is considered somewhat normal over there. Its bascally just a huge cultrual diffrence. Japan for example has a huge amount of culture diffrences compared to the usa or canada.

Personally The Elin either way didn't bother me I thought they were cute either way, but thats probally because I watch alot of anime so stuff like that doesn't really bother me like it might for someone not used to seeing it.

Originally posted by heartless

it's how we as humans perceive things. Our views, norms and values are influenced by the society we live in. We can justify violence in video games because we know that it's not real but depiction of a child in a somewhat sexual manner is considered immoral. Eventhough it's not a real person, it's still a child presented in a manner to which we are not only unacustomed to but also consider wrong.

Ok, so once again.  Why does something not being real make dismemberment perfectly fine, but not underdressing a child-like fantasy race?

I don't think I could have more perfectly laid out a double standard than what you did right there.  You have taken 2 things that are morally wrong (in some areas), murder and... well not even molestation, but lets call it that.  Two things people take very seriously, very very seriously.  Then stated that the justification for 1 being ok in fiction simply doesn't apply to the second.

The truth is you won't ever be able to give a good answer to why one is acceptable and the other is not, because there isn't one.  Both of these issues are make believe, they take place in a video game.  You just happen to take one in stride, and find one deplorable.

The funny thing is that outside of a virtual world, dressing little girls up like that is actually legal (at least in the US) but killing people will get you locked up for life.  Kind of interesting how when we move to a virtual world the whole thing is backwards?

Originally posted by heartless

 

Again, the beauty pageants in question are done by the fringe element of our society and many Americans view them as inapropriate and immoral. There is a lot of crazy shit going on in the world and using those pageants as an argument to support your point is along the same lines as saying that all muslims are terrorists. It's just plain ignorant.

Doesn't matter if it's a fringe element of society. You still allow parents to dress their children and show them of this way, yet you won't allow a computer game to show the same on virtual characters? Characters that might look like children, but arent?

Don't you see how strange that is?

Also not all features of the Elin are childlike, as someone said, the upper body is childlike, but the legs for instance are definately not those of a child.

Well my biggest gripe is that peoples whining will make me unable to play the game as the creators intended.

Originally posted by Lille7

Originally posted by heartless

 

Again, the beauty pageants in question are done by the fringe element of our society and many Americans view them as inapropriate and immoral. There is a lot of crazy shit going on in the world and using those pageants as an argument to support your point is along the same lines as saying that all muslims are terrorists. It's just plain ignorant.

Doesn't matter if it's a fringe element of society. You still allow parents to dress their children and show them of this way, yet you won't allow a computer game to show the same on virtual characters? Characters that might look like children, but arent?

Don't you see how strange that is?

 

Also not all features of the Elin are childlike, as someone said, the upper body is childlike, but the legs for instance are definately not those of a child.

 

Well my biggest gripe is that peoples whining will make me unable to play the game as the creators intended.

Nobody here has the power to allow or disallow anything.

The pageant argument is a straw man fallacy and therefore invalid.

Regardless, sexualizing little girls is disgusting - in Tera and in pageants

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Lille7

Originally posted by heartless

 

Again, the beauty pageants in question are done by the fringe element of our society and many Americans view them as inapropriate and immoral. There is a lot of crazy shit going on in the world and using those pageants as an argument to support your point is along the same lines as saying that all muslims are terrorists. It's just plain ignorant.

Doesn't matter if it's a fringe element of society. You still allow parents to dress their children and show them of this way, yet you won't allow a computer game to show the same on virtual characters? Characters that might look like children, but arent?

Don't you see how strange that is?

 

Also not all features of the Elin are childlike, as someone said, the upper body is childlike, but the legs for instance are definately not those of a child.

 

Well my biggest gripe is that peoples whining will make me unable to play the game as the creators intended.

Nobody here has the power to allow or disallow anything.

The pageant argument is a straw man fallacy and therefore invalid.

Regardless, sexualizing little girls is disgusting - in Tera and in pageants

Toddlers and Tiaras...it's even on T.V, so why is it beeing so bad in a game with fictional being that are not even children.

Originally posted by Lille7

Originally posted by heartless

 

Again, the beauty pageants in question are done by the fringe element of our society and many Americans view them as inapropriate and immoral. There is a lot of crazy shit going on in the world and using those pageants as an argument to support your point is along the same lines as saying that all muslims are terrorists. It's just plain ignorant.

Doesn't matter if it's a fringe element of society. You still allow parents to dress their children and show them of this way, yet you won't allow a computer game to show the same on virtual characters? Characters that might look like children, but arent?

Don't you see how strange that is?

 

Also not all features of the Elin are childlike, as someone said, the upper body is childlike, but the legs for instance are definately not those of a child.

 

Well my biggest gripe is that peoples whining will make me unable to play the game as the creators intended.

Video games, unlike TV shows have a potential to reach broader audiences. For example, those child beauty pageants are mostly watched by the people who are interested in that nonsense.

I think that your biggest gripe is that you can't see a preteen girl's underwear. I've had issues with game developers changing game features to apease the masses but changing the armor to make little girl characters look more like little girls should is not one of those issues.

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Lille7

Originally posted by heartless

 

Again, the beauty pageants in question are done by the fringe element of our society and many Americans view them as inapropriate and immoral. There is a lot of crazy shit going on in the world and using those pageants as an argument to support your point is along the same lines as saying that all muslims are terrorists. It's just plain ignorant.

Doesn't matter if it's a fringe element of society. You still allow parents to dress their children and show them of this way, yet you won't allow a computer game to show the same on virtual characters? Characters that might look like children, but arent?

Don't you see how strange that is?

 

Also not all features of the Elin are childlike, as someone said, the upper body is childlike, but the legs for instance are definately not those of a child.

 

Well my biggest gripe is that peoples whining will make me unable to play the game as the creators intended.

Nobody here has the power to allow or disallow anything.

The pageant argument is a straw man fallacy and therefore invalid.

Regardless, sexualizing little girls is disgusting - in Tera and in pageants

Toddlers and Tiaras...it's even on T.V, so why is it beeing so bad in a game with fictional being that are not even children.

It is bad. But the existence of one doesn't excuse the existence of the other. Just because it's on TV doesn't mean that people are OK with it. And it definitely doesn't excuse the sexualized depiction of girls in a video game. Or any other medium for that matter.

Originally posted by heartless

Video games, unlike TV shows have a potential to reach broader audiences.

Pretty sure you've got that backwards.

Originally posted by heartless

Video games, unlike TV shows have a potential to reach broader audiences. For example, those child beauty pageants are mostly watched by the people who are interested in that nonsense.

Originally posted by heartless

It is bad. But the existence of one doesn't excuse the existence of the other. Just because it's on TV doesn't mean that people are OK with it.

It does mean just that. Peoples whining made them change the Elins (or maybe the possibility of whining), if enough people said "NO" to those pageants they would stop too. The fact that those pageants are on TV and not some secret underground movement means that they are socially accepted. You seem to think that Elins showing underwear = child pornography, and apparently think a huge number of people are going to react to that once the game is released in the west. Yet those pageants are still there. On TV.

And do you really think the audience for TERA is bigger than the number of people who get whatever channel toddlers and tiaras is on?

And it's the principle of the thing that bothers me, not the fact i can't see their panties.