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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are You Hardcore Enough?

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116 posts found
  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

2/11/12 6:44:00 PM#21

"time spent" IS what grants any 'hardcore' moniker.

I don't care how much shouting or mountain dew gets thrown at a monitor, it doesn't make him a "hardcore MW player". Doing it all day, every day, does.

Then again, Lok makes a good point about "intent".

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 6:44:56 PM#22
Originally posted by Quesa
Originally posted by Cuathon

Amusingly I intended this to be more of a would you be willing to play a game where you can totally lose thread. ah well.

Trolololol.

You should probably figure out what "trolling" is if you think this thread is one.

I never said this thread was a troll thread dude. I was just annoyed at how it went offtopic after the first post.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 6:47:20 PM#23
Originally posted by GTwander

"time spent" IS what grants any 'hardcore' moniker.

I don't care how much shouting or mountain dew gets thrown at a monitor, it doesn't make him a "hardcore MW player". Doing it all day, every day, does.

Then again, Lok makes a good point about "intent".

I mean the merriam webster definition of casual is more or less based on your intent. But most players know what you mean if you say casual.

Instead of asking:

Are you someone who only plays a little bit to kill time and has much more important prioriries?

You ask:

Are you a casual?

 

People who aren't being nitpicky about definitions understand what you mean in the context of video games.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/11/12 6:52:10 PM#24
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Axehilt

Are you a bad enough dude to invest more time than everyone else?

(Ironically timesink-centric games are pretty casual.  Don't have skill?  No problem! Just invest more time in the game than your opponents for easy wins!)

That doesn't even make sense. Casual means not investing a lot of time.
Casual hobbies are hobbies you don't pursue with serious effect. For instance I play chess casually. And I play LoL casually. Ie, not that much and at irregular intervals.

Every system is unfair to someone. Life is unfair for poor people. Its also unfair for sick people, disabled people, dumb people, lazy people and so forth.

Whatever system you pick as the system for success fucks over the majority.

So I would like to add to your list:

Are you a bad enough dude to be born to rich parents?

Are you a bad enough dude to be born to smart  parents?

Are you a bad enough dude to be born to physically talented parents?

Your argument is stupid.

Sure any system for determining the victor screws over someone.  But only one system (player skill) makes a game strongly a game.  The entire point of games is interaction. Decisions.

When decision quality and execution (skill) are the primary things being rewarded, a game is highly interactive.  When Time Spent Playing or Zerging are the things being rewarded, the importance of skill gets pushed aside in favor of this casual skilll-lite gameplay where any mouthbreather can do well as long as they have more time than someone else.

Most people wouldn't consider "Who can watch TV the longest?" to be a particularly interesting game (if they consider it a game at all.)  Certainly many would question just how "hardcore" such a game would be, since it requires no skill at all -- just time.

Games which strongly reward excessive time investment are only a few steps away from that.  They're not particularly interactive, because Time Spent Playing has such a significant effect, and so they're not particularly good games.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2191

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/11/12 6:58:45 PM#25
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

I am real curious, but what MMO do you play Loktofeit?

 

Currently EVE Online, Puzzle Pirates, Free Realms and Vendetta Online.

OMG, Free Realms? You are hardcore. /wink

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 7:00:14 PM#26
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Axehilt

Are you a bad enough dude to invest more time than everyone else?

(Ironically timesink-centric games are pretty casual.  Don't have skill?  No problem! Just invest more time in the game than your opponents for easy wins!)

That doesn't even make sense. Casual means not investing a lot of time.
Casual hobbies are hobbies you don't pursue with serious effect. For instance I play chess casually. And I play LoL casually. Ie, not that much and at irregular intervals.

Every system is unfair to someone. Life is unfair for poor people. Its also unfair for sick people, disabled people, dumb people, lazy people and so forth.

Whatever system you pick as the system for success fucks over the majority.

So I would like to add to your list:

Are you a bad enough dude to be born to rich parents?

Are you a bad enough dude to be born to smart  parents?

Are you a bad enough dude to be born to physically talented parents?

Your argument is stupid.

Sure any system for determining the victor screws over someone.  But only one system (player skill) makes a game strongly a game.  The entire point of games is interaction. Decisions.

When decision quality and execution (skill) are the primary things being rewarded, a game is highly interactive.  When Time Spent Playing or Zerging are the things being rewarded, the importance of skill gets pushed aside in favor of this casual skilll-lite gameplay where any mouthbreather can do well as long as they have more time than someone else.

Most people wouldn't consider "Who can watch TV the longest?" to be a particularly interesting game (if they consider it a game at all.)  Certainly many would question just how "hardcore" such a game would be, since it requires no skill at all -- just time.

Games which strongly reward excessive time investment are only a few steps away from that.  They're not particularly interactive, because Time Spent Playing has such a significant effect, and so they're not particularly good games.


The idea of roleplaying games being "game" centric has always been incorrect. Its about your role, not the game mechanics.

MMOs have always been terrible games. In fact raids, the part that is most largely a game because its set  up for a certain number of players with certain spells and specific gear is the minority of content in MMOs.

The leveling system has always been a shit game.

And in any case many many people get obessed with virtual worlds. And many many people watch hours and hours of TV and shows and books have "hardcore" fans who think it, breathe it and dream it.

And the game I am talking about does require skills. Not every fucking second of the time, but RTS skills over the game and math skills to make decisions on what to do, and art skills to make cool gear and engineering skills and construction skills to build things. I never said it was a largest common denominator game. I prefer that it isn't.

Also, being good at chess requires just as much time commitment as succeeding at an mmo and people who don't memorize all the openings and spend time watching opponents play lose.

Period. Yet chess is an interesting game. Oh wait, its not. The largest common denominator loves football and doesn't give a fuck about chess. Chess can still be a hardcore game, and you can still be a hardcore chess player.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11899

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/11/12 7:00:27 PM#27
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by GTwander

"time spent" IS what grants any 'hardcore' moniker.

I don't care how much shouting or mountain dew gets thrown at a monitor, it doesn't make him a "hardcore MW player". Doing it all day, every day, does.

Then again, Lok makes a good point about "intent".

I mean the merriam webster definition of casual is more or less based on your intent. But most players know what you mean if you say casual.

Instead of asking:

Are you someone who only plays a little bit to kill time and has much more important prioriries?

You ask:

Are you a casual?

 

People who aren't being nitpicky about definitions understand what you mean in the context of video games.

Actually, there's a significant difference, and it's important to understand that difference especially since you are planning to create a game such as you describe in your initial post.

The time-limited hardcore player is often the most disenfranchised player segment in an MMO. /PLAYED as a gauge of 'hardcore' would never allow you to properly identify the players who are most invested in your game.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11899

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/11/12 7:04:09 PM#28
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

I am real curious, but what MMO do you play Loktofeit?

 

Currently EVE Online, Puzzle Pirates, Free Realms and Vendetta Online.

OMG, Free Realms? You are hardcore. /wink

LOL!  

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 7:07:08 PM#29
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by GTwander

"time spent" IS what grants any 'hardcore' moniker.

I don't care how much shouting or mountain dew gets thrown at a monitor, it doesn't make him a "hardcore MW player". Doing it all day, every day, does.

Then again, Lok makes a good point about "intent".

I mean the merriam webster definition of casual is more or less based on your intent. But most players know what you mean if you say casual.

Instead of asking:

Are you someone who only plays a little bit to kill time and has much more important prioriries?

You ask:

Are you a casual?

 

People who aren't being nitpicky about definitions understand what you mean in the context of video games.

Actually, there's a significant difference, and it's important to understand that difference especially since you are planning to create a game such as you describe in your initial post.

The time-limited hardcore player is often the most disenfranchised player segment in an MMO. /PLAYED as a gauge of 'hardcore' would never allow you to properly identify the players who are most invested in your game.

 


MMOs screw over time limited hardcores by their very nature. Any persistant game fucks those people over. Those people are better suited to synchronus PvP or Co op RPG games. Any game that rewards even a little the amount of time you play ruins its for time limited hardcores. Except pure PvE games. And even then a time unlimited hardcore will be able to affect the game more.

 

My game allows space for time limited hardcores and casuals as long as they don't expect to get to do all the things non limited people can do. Even a newbie character has some value to any aspect of the game. And since the game has a diminishing returns progression system players who have only an hour a day will be very useful after a month or two, and useful right away in building aspects.

But the game may or may not offer them the content they want. Ie, you can't just spawn a character and start killing mobs. It is not combat centric like every other MMO but Wurm and ATITD.

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

2/11/12 8:02:07 PM#30

So how do endless levels work. Either people all become unbalanced against content or levels are marginal power increases and become meaningless after a while. It has to be either one.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

2/11/12 8:13:40 PM#31
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Dibdabs

I love the Nerdspeak term "hardcore", pertaining as it does to something as trivial a computer game - it must make them feel all manly and uber.  :D

Well, hardcore is just a time identifier imo. It doesn't apply only to video games either. Anything you put a lot of time in. Hardcore artist, hardcore musician, w/e. Sports too.

I thought hardcore meant that you were really good, not just that you spend a lot of time in a game.

Of course many people who do spend a lot of time in a game becomes good but far from all and I know several people who plays many hours every day that still sucks and calling them hardcore just doesn´t seems right, "No lifers" is more like it.

It is also a atitude thing of course.

The thing you said about someone with 10 million XP stomping someone with one million sounds a bit worrying to me, how large is really the gap between people with different XP?

I mean it is fine that there is no roof, I like that but having too large gap in a game like that can be a problem and kill the fun of it.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/11/12 8:15:50 PM#32
Originally posted by Cuathon


The idea of roleplaying games being "game" centric has always been incorrect. Its about your role, not the game mechanics.

MMOs have always been terrible games. In fact raids, the part that is most largely a game because its set  up for a certain number of players with certain spells and specific gear is the minority of content in MMOs.

The leveling system has always been a shit game.

And in any case many many people get obessed with virtual worlds. And many many people watch hours and hours of TV and shows and books have "hardcore" fans who think it, breathe it and dream it.

And the game I am talking about does require skills. Not every fucking second of the time, but RTS skills over the game and math skills to make decisions on what to do, and art skills to make cool gear and engineering skills and construction skills to build things. I never said it was a largest common denominator game. I prefer that it isn't.

Also, being good at chess requires just as much time commitment as succeeding at an mmo and people who don't memorize all the openings and spend time watching opponents play lose.

Period. Yet chess is an interesting game. Oh wait, its not. The largest common denominator loves football and doesn't give a fuck about chess. Chess can still be a hardcore game, and you can still be a hardcore chess player.

And when is your role most meaningful?  When you need to work together with your teammates to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses in order to beat a tough challenge.  Roleplaying videogames have always involved this element, and the more strongly they tie strategy, tactics, twitch, and teamwork to success, the better they've done.

Leveling has certainly always diluted the importance of player decisions, and therefore made them worse games.  But that doesn't mean a RPG has to forsake all good gameplay just because it involves this element. (Again: the most successful RPGs are the ones that provided leveling and were still good games.)

Let's not call them RTS skills if they're not RTS skills.  Let's call them strategy skills if you're making an online strategy game.  RTS skills are those you'd see exhibited in a pro Starcraft 2 or LoL match, which don't sound like a central element to your game.

If you want it not to be a largest common denominator game, you wouldn't be making a virtual world where time investment accumulates insurmountable advantage ;)  That's what makes open world PVP so casual: skill is almost completely irrelevant in most of the fights that happen in world PVP games.

The difference in Chess is skill.  You win by playing smart and thinking ahead.  You don't start with an extra Queen just because you've played 100 games of Chess.  You're on equal footing and it's purely your decisionmaking that determines victory.

As for competitive games which are more popular than Chess, take a step back and realize that none of them involve substantial non-skill elements.  If my football team has played 500 games and yours only played 100 games, I don't start 10 points ahead.  I don't score more points per touchdown.  I don't get to field 2x as many linebackers.  It's purely my team's skill vs. your's.

In popular competitive games, the better player wins.  Good PVP is about competition and skill.  It's not about the game rules rewarding players for investing more time -- that's going to happen automatically, why would you need to make it a game mechanic?

  SoulSurfer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/08
Posts: 1255

2/11/12 8:23:02 PM#33
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Dibdabs

I love the Nerdspeak term "hardcore", pertaining as it does to something as trivial a computer game - it must make them feel all manly and uber.  :D

Well, hardcore is just a time identifier imo. It doesn't apply only to video games either. Anything you put a lot of time in. Hardcore artist, hardcore musician, w/e. Sports too.

I'm hardcore, into hardcore porn!

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 8:33:58 PM#34
Originally posted by CalmOceans

So how do endless levels work. Either people all become unbalanced against content or levels are marginal power increases and become meaningless after a while. It has to be either one.

Content levels up too actually. Both in numbers and larger organized groups and also more individual strength.

There are no levels per say. Just experience which goes through a formula. As an example I use:

exp^.5/100

After a long time you get less of return on smaller amounts of exp. So from 0 to 100exp is a lot but from 10000 to10100 is not. However you do get some small increase in gains at higher exp.

But you can level many different skills to make your character more useful or powerful. So if you had 10billion exp for killing creatures you may want to start spending time learning magic or crafting or just building things.

Players may become more unbalanced against other players but the game is pure coop  pvp so it doesnt matter.

Also if you avoid the hard content eventually it hits a certain cap and launches a raid on your town and since you didn't fight it you got less exp and not as good materials for crafting and building and not as good magic so you get smashed. And if you lose a town its just gone. So be lazy if you like and reap what you've sown.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 8:35:06 PM#35
Originally posted by SoulSurfer
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Dibdabs

I love the Nerdspeak term "hardcore", pertaining as it does to something as trivial a computer game - it must make them feel all manly and uber.  :D

Well, hardcore is just a time identifier imo. It doesn't apply only to video games either. Anything you put a lot of time in. Hardcore artist, hardcore musician, w/e. Sports too.

I'm hardcore, into hardcore porn!

+1

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 8:37:32 PM#36
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Dibdabs

I love the Nerdspeak term "hardcore", pertaining as it does to something as trivial a computer game - it must make them feel all manly and uber.  :D

Well, hardcore is just a time identifier imo. It doesn't apply only to video games either. Anything you put a lot of time in. Hardcore artist, hardcore musician, w/e. Sports too.

I thought hardcore meant that you were really good, not just that you spend a lot of time in a game.

Of course many people who do spend a lot of time in a game becomes good but far from all and I know several people who plays many hours every day that still sucks and calling them hardcore just doesn´t seems right, "No lifers" is more like it.

It is also a atitude thing of course.

The thing you said about someone with 10 million XP stomping someone with one million sounds a bit worrying to me, how large is really the gap between people with different XP?

I mean it is fine that there is no roof, I like that but having too large gap in a game like that can be a problem and kill the fun of it.


You cannot attack other players or fuck with their stuff. Technically if you worked your way into a guild and then stole their stuff after you got permissions on it, you could grief, but that has nothing to do with levels and I will ban you with no remorse because I don't tolerate that shit unless it was designed to happen, in which case it would be full loot pvp and not pure PvE.

 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 8:38:47 PM#37
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Cuathon


The idea of roleplaying games being "game" centric has always been incorrect. Its about your role, not the game mechanics.

MMOs have always been terrible games. In fact raids, the part that is most largely a game because its set  up for a certain number of players with certain spells and specific gear is the minority of content in MMOs.

The leveling system has always been a shit game.

And in any case many many people get obessed with virtual worlds. And many many people watch hours and hours of TV and shows and books have "hardcore" fans who think it, breathe it and dream it.

And the game I am talking about does require skills. Not every fucking second of the time, but RTS skills over the game and math skills to make decisions on what to do, and art skills to make cool gear and engineering skills and construction skills to build things. I never said it was a largest common denominator game. I prefer that it isn't.

Also, being good at chess requires just as much time commitment as succeeding at an mmo and people who don't memorize all the openings and spend time watching opponents play lose.

Period. Yet chess is an interesting game. Oh wait, its not. The largest common denominator loves football and doesn't give a fuck about chess. Chess can still be a hardcore game, and you can still be a hardcore chess player.

And when is your role most meaningful?  When you need to work together with your teammates to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses in order to beat a tough challenge.  Roleplaying videogames have always involved this element, and the more strongly they tie strategy, tactics, twitch, and teamwork to success, the better they've done.

Leveling has certainly always diluted the importance of player decisions, and therefore made them worse games.  But that doesn't mean a RPG has to forsake all good gameplay just because it involves this element. (Again: the most successful RPGs are the ones that provided leveling and were still good games.)

Let's not call them RTS skills if they're not RTS skills.  Let's call them strategy skills if you're making an online strategy game.  RTS skills are those you'd see exhibited in a pro Starcraft 2 or LoL match, which don't sound like a central element to your game.

If you want it not to be a largest common denominator game, you wouldn't be making a virtual world where time investment accumulates insurmountable advantage ;)  That's what makes open world PVP so casual: skill is almost completely irrelevant in most of the fights that happen in world PVP games.

The difference in Chess is skill.  You win by playing smart and thinking ahead.  You don't start with an extra Queen just because you've played 100 games of Chess.  You're on equal footing and it's purely your decisionmaking that determines victory.

As for competitive games which are more popular than Chess, take a step back and realize that none of them involve substantial non-skill elements.  If my football team has played 500 games and yours only played 100 games, I don't start 10 points ahead.  I don't score more points per touchdown.  I don't get to field 2x as many linebackers.  It's purely my team's skill vs. your's.

In popular competitive games, the better player wins.  Good PVP is about competition and skill.  It's not about the game rules rewarding players for investing more time -- that's going to happen automatically, why would you need to make it a game mechanic?


What part of role play don't you understand? RPGs are about character skill. Not personal skill. Your character has 100 levels in magic because you spent time training his magic. The other guy didn't so you win the magic duel. This is not a complicated concept.

  MacroHard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 105

2/11/12 8:58:55 PM#38

The most hardcore thing I've done in a game is find the ideal zone of choice to take a screenshot of the avatar looking off into a sunset... super hardcore.  No1 else in the history of that game even bothered reaching that peak as the yeti cave entrances ended a hundred yards below.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  2/11/12 9:08:57 PM#39
Originally posted by MacroHard

The most hardcore thing I've done in a game is find the ideal zone of choice to take a screenshot of the avatar looking off into a sunset... super hardcore.  No1 else in the history of that game even bothered reaching that peak as the yeti cave entrances ended a hundred yards below.

Haha. Nice.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/11/12 9:36:53 PM#40
Originally posted by Cuathon


What part of role play don't you understand? RPGs are about character skill. Not personal skill. Your character has 100 levels in magic because you spent time training his magic. The other guy didn't so you win the magic duel. This is not a complicated concept.

Sure, but RPGs can involve character abilities without completely compromising their gameplay.  In fact those RPGs which are built this way enjoy the greatest success and entertain the most players.

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