Originally posted by Fly666monkey

To be fair, yes, the term "Free to Play" is a litle misleading, just like all advertising.

And if a game relies on the cash shop for players to have a chance at competing with other players, that's Pay to Win. That's the DEFINITION of pay to win. And it isn't exclusive to F2P games, or even MMO's in general. (Case in point: Street Fighter X Tekken's DLC exclusive gems, that are reportedly going to be better than what the game comes with.) I'm certianly not saying that people shouldn't complain about that.

A tiered sub system, on the other hand, I have no problem with.

*ahem*

Selling +xp consumables isn't a pay-to-win tactic unless you seriously consider getting to endgame a race, and that others are paying attention to your progress in the least bit, or that others haven't won said race already. I already mentioned how I feel about selling definitive upgrades in a game that is already competitive (see; APB), but in a game where grinding mobs all day to reach lvl 90...? Nobody wins, even if there is PvP waiting at the end, because chances are it means jack-all and has no ladders to consider.

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

To be fair, yes, the term "Free to Play" is a litle misleading, just like all advertising.

And if a game relies on the cash shop for players to have a chance at competing with other players, that's Pay to Win. That's the DEFINITION of pay to win. And it isn't exclusive to F2P games, or even MMO's in general. (Case in point: Street Fighter X Tekken's DLC exclusive gems, that are reportedly going to be better than what the game comes with.) I'm certianly not saying that people shouldn't complain about that.

A tiered sub system, on the other hand, I have no problem with.

*ahem*

Selling +xp consumables isn't a pay-to-win tactic unless you seriously consider getting to endgame a race, and that others are paying attention to your progress in the least bit, or that others haven't won said race already.

I didn't say it was.

I already mentioned how I feel about selling definitive upgrades in a game that is already competitive (see; APB), but in a game where grinding mobs all day to reach lvl 90...? Nobody wins, even if there is PvP waiting at the end, because chances are it means jack-all and has no ladders to consider

The thing is, selling gear in a pve only game still has consequences. Who are you going to invite to a tough raid, the guy in all Uber Cash shop gear, or the f2per in comparatively worse gear? And yes, if there is any PVP in the game at all, even at the end, it's pay to win too, period.

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

The thing is, selling gear in a pve only game still has consequences. Who are you going to invite to a tough raid, the guy in all Uber Cash shop gear, or the f2per in comparatively worse gear? And yes, if there is any PVP in the game at all, even at the end, it's pay to win too, period.

 

That's a mentality issue, and I had an interesting discussion already about how gearscore affects WoW in illogical ways... like having to have a full set of gear that's dropped in the very raid you're doing in order to get it, or else you're S.o.L. So it's not something that only effects CS games, but something I have seen is guilds where all members have to have paid something (i.e., no froobs allowed). Makes a strong case about entitlement and how cliques start.

Not everyone who interprets F2P as a bad thing fit into this stereotype of "GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!", and I really doubt that anyone truly thinks so nor do I see reason to believe anyone on this forum said so from what I've read. There just exists differences in how some people feel when they go from playing a game they bought from a physical or digital store and then how they feel when they digitally downloaded an F2P game.

For me personally, I love the feeling of buying a game. In fact I took this for granted and didn't even know how much I loved it until F2P arrived. F2P removes this feeling for me, and I can't get it back unless the F2P model is a really good model. That is, if I spend over 50 bucks on a F2P game then I want it to feel like I just bought a full copy of a new game (which is that feeling I get from buying a full game). If I can't get this feeling, if I can't acquire it using the business model the F2P game offers, then I will feel negatively about the game. It's as simple as that. This happened to me with League of Legends.

Paying 50 bucks in LoL only unlocks a handful of new characters. This is because the game is based on unlocking new characters so it wouldn't make sense to make it so you unlock them all anyways. League of Legends probably doesn't have a way around this either, unfortunately, or at least that I know of currently. I simply felt that spending money on LoL failed to impress me as a result. So, since I provided an example where it didn't work for me, then let's look at one where it did. Realm of the Mad God. Oh yes. I loved this game and its free to play model. I spent like only 15 bucks but WOW did I feel good when I did. I even wanted to spend MORE. I even began to feel WORRIED that I was going to spend millions (exaggerating here, folks) of real dollars on this game because I absolutely LOVED everything you could buy with it. And it was JUST cosmetic changes! Like hats, robes, dyes, etc So that shows that there ARE cases where I do absolutely approve of the F2P model if it is good enough.

I know no one said this but I'm saying this and providing a counter example so that I can talk about the next point: P2P <= F2P The idea that subscription models are the same or not as good as free to play models. This idea doesn't work because the P2P games are exclusive to paying customers only where F2P is open to all (in most cases with P2P games, perhaps not all). Just showing that they aren't the exact same by saying that. However it is true that a subscriber that subs for 15 dollars a month is the same as if a F2P player pays 15 dollars a month in a F2P game. The differences are that it can feel different from person to person, and from game to game.

In the case that depends from person to person, you have different methods of paying. In a P2P game you can usually just select a payment plan for your account, then hit your submit button all from a web browser. For a F2P, you buy a special currency (in cases where I've seen anyway), then you have to manage that currency and make sure you spend it well. The game nickles and dimes you and can be tricky in some cases so I can see why some people prefer P2P and some actually prefer the challenge of spending your currency in F2P.

In the case that depends from game to game, I mean that a P2P game can be very very high quality and F2P games can be designed very bad. The reason that happens is probably because the P2P model can be implemented with all items in the game just waiting to be acquired, whereas a F2P game has to place those items in stores and further place the special currency prices on them as well. Why this is the case is probably because the F2P models are still figuring out how to make a good model while P2P games can just get away with hardly having to do all that nickel and diming. Perhaps also because they (P2P games) have been around longer? I don't know.

In any case, it doesn't matter what I think about F2P unless a game company wants my money specifically but that's not the way business works. Business works by trying to get everyone's money generally... not just mine individually and they don't care if I prefer to have my feeling that I want. However, I know I'm not completely alone in all of this. Game devs already know that F2P models are more difficult to setup than P2P models and that they need to figure out ways to improve them (Even (1995) The Realm Online is still going for 7 dollars a month). Making your customers feel satisfied about spending money on their game is very important for making that actually happen.

tl;dr So yeah. Some people like F2P. Some people don't. There are always going to be people with different opinions. It all becomes ok when we respect each other's entitlement to being different.

Originally posted by thedarkess

Also, why do people seem to think B2P = F2P?

the way i see it

f2p = free to play games w cash shops  (that launched as f2p)

freemium = pay to play games gone f2p but have restrictions unless you sub

b2p = must buy the client to play anything at all

Originally posted by Quesa

 

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Originally posted by Vesavius

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Originally posted by Quesa

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Originally posted by Vesavius

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Originally posted by Quesa

There is even a business purpose for freeware.  People don't go off and create free things just because it's cool to do and you want to be a cool guy, there is always an angle.
A F2P game is essentially freeware in the sense that it doesn't cost anything to play it however that doesn't mean you get access to everything - much like freeware where you only get the basic functions but pay for the pro version.

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Freeware and Shareware aren't the same thing though. A 'F2P' MMO is essentially shareware really.
Freeware, alot of the time, actually does not have an business angle, past gaining the dev practical experience or a prfile in the programming community, though ofc a lot of it does exists to make money (through advertising or whatever).

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I didn't say anything about Shareware.  F2P has more in common with Freeware than Shareware.
And you are wrong about freeware not having a business angle.  The vast majority of freeware titles have some angle to them, whether that be direct monetary gains or indirect personal gains, such as adding something to a portfolio to help with job interviews.

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1. I didn't say you did say anything about shareware, I said you were using the freeware label wrongly and that F2P games fell under the shareware label .
If F2P MMOs were Freeware they would use advertising or some similar mechanism to fund themselves.

2. I didn't say all freeware didn't have a business angle... I said a lot of it didn't, but also a lot of it did. I highlighted that part in red.

Look, it's wikipedia I know, but have a read;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware 

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It's going to have to be a difference of opinion and interpretation of the various definitions of Freeware vs Shareware. 

Sure, if it makes you feel better ;)

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

Flame on!

:)

Do you really think anyone is going to want to grind to get gear that other players can just pay for? Let me give you an example:

In the Nexon published game, Mabinogi, if you are a free player, you can "Rebirth" your character ever 3 weeks, which resets your level while keeping your stats. After lvl 20 or so, leveling progression slows down IMMENSELY, so you get only a few points to increase your skills, and later on oin the game, won't be able to advance any of your skills untill after several rebirths.

A paying player, on the other hand, can RB every week, and as such advance MUCH faster than free players. You're not forced to pay to advance, you can just grind it out for free, but you will alwayts be behind those who pay.

So that's the idea of "Paying for convinience" for you. The same concept can be applied to gear. Yes, you can grind it out to get that gear, or you can pay and get it now, while squashing those without the gear in every aspect of the game until they catch up. Then finallly everyone catches up to the paying players, and then new, better gear comes out! Guess who's going to be grinding whole being overshadowed by the paying players again?

As you see, it's still pay to win.

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

Anytime a f2p game cuts co0ntent off from free players, I see countless people complaining that they have to pay for it. Even in a game that used to be P2P and required you to buy both the game AND pay a sub to access the game AT ALL.

F2P is not Freeware.

It's a buisiness model. So long as F2P games provide quality content, and don't fall into gambling/P2W traps, I see no reason to complain. Guess what? These games have to make money, too.

This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense. If you're willing to pay a sub to access an MMO, then I see no reason to whine when they decide to let you have SOME of that content without paying.

I'm glad I got that off my chest.

It's because new players are drawn to low/no cost like a smart consumer should be.  Their problem is they are too believing and should know without any experience that F2P is code for Pay2Win.

It is a business model alright.. one that bases itself on deceit in order to lure players in.

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

Flame on!

:)

Do you really think anyone is going to want to grind to get gear that other players can just pay for? Let me give you an example:

In the Nexon published game, Mabinogi, if you are a free player, you can "Rebirth" your character ever 3 weeks, which resets your level while keeping your stats. After lvl 20 or so, leveling progression slows down IMMENSELY, so you get only a few points to increase your skills, and later on oin the game, won't be able to advance any of your skills untill after several rebirths.

A paying player, on the other hand, can RB every week, and as such advance MUCH faster than free players. You're not forced to pay to advance, you can just grind it out for free, but you will alwayts be behind those who pay.

So that's the idea of "Paying for convinience" for you. The same concept can be applied to gear. Yes, you can grind it out to get that gear, or you can pay and get it now, while squashing those without the gear in every aspect of the game until they catch up. Then finallly everyone catches up to the paying players, and then new, better gear comes out! Guess who's going to be grinding whole being overshadowed by the paying players again?

As you see, it's still pay to win.

Well, at a point there were 8 million free players in Runescape and 2 million members, so yes, there are people who will grind to get what paying people get easyer.

Yet you are still trapped in wow (or something similarly broken), the whole concept of accepting that it will take longer for being free is unfathomable for you. That for very few people a mmo means a constant cycle of new gear new content and resets that make anything before that meaningless, and that very few games actually are like that.

No, i dont see, i am not you :)

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

Flame on!

:)

Do you really think anyone is going to want to grind to get gear that other players can just pay for? Let me give you an example:

In the Nexon published game, Mabinogi, if you are a free player, you can "Rebirth" your character ever 3 weeks, which resets your level while keeping your stats. After lvl 20 or so, leveling progression slows down IMMENSELY, so you get only a few points to increase your skills, and later on oin the game, won't be able to advance any of your skills untill after several rebirths.

A paying player, on the other hand, can RB every week, and as such advance MUCH faster than free players. You're not forced to pay to advance, you can just grind it out for free, but you will alwayts be behind those who pay.

So that's the idea of "Paying for convinience" for you. The same concept can be applied to gear. Yes, you can grind it out to get that gear, or you can pay and get it now, while squashing those without the gear in every aspect of the game until they catch up. Then finallly everyone catches up to the paying players, and then new, better gear comes out! Guess who's going to be grinding whole being overshadowed by the paying players again?

As you see, it's still pay to win.

Well, at a point there were 8 million free players in Runescape and 2 million members, so yes, there are people who will grind to get what paying people get easyer.

Yet you are still trapped in wow (or something similarly broken), the whole concept of accepting that it will take longer for being free is unfathomable for you. That for very few people a mmo means a constant cycle of new gear new content and resets that make anything before that meaningless, and that very few games actually are like that.

No, i dont see, i am not you :)

Flame on!

:)

 

What do you mean I'm "Trapped in WoW?" Your argument makes zero sense. (BTW, I haven't play WoW since BC.) And WoW, BROKEN? I can think of many negative things about WoW, but broken is not one of them. I get the feeling that this is just a jab at me.

The rest of your argument makes no sense either. If I, by paying money, can gain power that free players cannot, that is pay to win. And just because free players can grind their way to what payng players get instantly, does not change this fact. You should NEVER be able to pay for power. No matter the gameplay, paying for power is pay 2 win. Period. 

And your runescape argument is baseless, because free players CANNOT do everything paying players can. Try again.

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

You are honestly surprised that people would read "free to play" when you write "free to play"?

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

I don't think players expect to have everything for free. Most F2Ps don't limit content (compared to F2P Converts like LOTRO or DDO were you have to buy the other classes, or new areas, etc.), however they do sell some large bonuses in various shapes or forms that only cash shop users will get, and all players understand that. However, most of these players are happy enough with what they get, so they are indeed playing the whole game for free.

Short example. I've played Dragon Nest for a little while, made a few characters, one reaching over Lv.30ish (cap is 40 at the moment I think). I've never spent a single buck, never had any intention to either, so I did play for free. If you look at it this way, F2P in this case would be the equivalent of a Freeware. I believe the stats were 74% of F2P players don't spend any money 13% spends casually, another 13% spends a lot. Those stats were from a research in 2011, sadly Newzoo seems to have changed what they show on their website so people buy the whole research report (quite expensive I might add). Still, if 74% of F2P players don't spend any money, than it should come as to no surprise that players perceive F2P as Freewares, and it's not a bad way to look at it either because there is some truth to it.

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

What do you mean I'm "Trapped in WoW?" Your argument makes zero sense. (BTW, I haven't play WoW since BC.) And WoW, BROKEN? I can think of many negative things about WoW, but broken is not one of them. I get the feeling that this is just a jab at me.

The rest of your argument makes no sense either. If I, by paying money, can gain power that free players cannot, that is pay to win. And just because free players can grind their way to what payng players get instantly, does not change this fact. You should NEVER be able to pay for power. No matter the gameplay, paying for power is pay 2 win. Period. 

And your runescape argument is baseless, because free players CANNOT do everything paying players can. Try again.

 

Trapped in wow in terms of argumentation that involves the desire to be at the endgame at all times, only being interested in that, discontinuing everything else and that most of the playes of any game are not at the endgame (and that many games dont even have endgame).

Runescape is actually very valid, because the main drive for becoming members is NOT the skills you dont have, because on free servers NOONE has those, they just dont work, but the sheer work involved in raising the skills you have, for example prayer skill (some form of mana to fuel personal buffs) is trained by burrying bones, you need 13 million exp to max it, free players can only aquire bones that give 15 exp per bone, members have 200+ exp bones, each bone takes 2 seconds and a mouse click to bury, with loading and unloading your 28 spot inventory at a bank, you do the math. But there are still players who have reached the maxlevel this way, and many more that try.

But to play devils advocate, yes, the point "noone has on free" can be the main one. From my experience, some players see themselves as a part of a elite group, that already progresses 2-3 times faster than the grey majority, when approaching a "free" game they expect to be able to make up for not paying by working harder and still be at worst a bit behind "normal people", which is impossible if they dont have access.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense.

It makes sense if you ever see the marketing for a F2P MMO. They don't market it as "it's freemium, you gotta a cash shop (that keeps certain desirable features of the game locked, or entire sections of content)", they say "it's free! COMPLETELY free! Come play it now!". The very phrase "free to play" is word play: they're saying it's free to "play", the word "play" being very literal. However, the user feels that the word "play" means "playing", which in a subjective view, can mean the entire game. Nowhere is this stated, but implied heavily.

Downloadable trials are a different matter: most companies would advertise it as a trial or "try it out now!" which then wouldn't be labeled as false advertising, which can be illegal in some countries.

How can you blame people who get upset with a F2P title when they start seeing item shops and whatever costs in the game?  When you plaster the word "Free" there's alot of expectations about that.  The ads, even none of the ads shown on this website, don't exactly break it down in how stuff is set aside for laying down more and more money.  There's a reason why they were interested in "Free" 2 Play to begin with.

$$$

I think the term free to play is unfortunate. Truly it should be changed to gimped to play. Your completely gimped unless you unlock every little fricking thing, which becomes highly annoying and tends to cost more than pay to play (sub). I'm looking forward to a certain little title that is buy to play (no sub).

I don't understand this mentality that monthly fee = quality in MMOs, GW2 is a perfect example that no monthly fee and a cash shop can be good

Free to Play is just that, Free to Play. So many things are advertised as Free.

Big Mac FREE! (with the purchase of 2 Big Mac menus).

It's not because someone interprets "Free" as "really totally absolutely Free, no strings attached, really!" that they're right of course. Certainly on the Internet a healthy dose of scepticism is best kept at the ready.

Originally posted by PsychoPigeon

I don't understand this mentality that monthly fee = quality in MMOs, GW2 is a perfect example that no monthly fee and a cash shop can be good

It's not so much as quality for a P2P scheme.  It's everyone that plays the game has the same chance of getting something, or equal chance of access to something / a location, provided they do the work for it.