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News & Features Discussion  » General: Mentoring is Motivation

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30 posts found
  MacroHard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 105

2/11/12 7:44:52 PM#21







Originally posted by A_Mighty_Wyn







As someone who has friends who level much faster than I do, I would love a system like this.  To the above poster(Macrohard) I would say, if I don't ever get to endgame content because I loose the drive to play after my friends outlevel me, how does adding more endgame content help me?  Even if I do eventually hit max-level, with most games I still can't play with my friends because they are doing gated content.  And, if I ever do happen to catch them, that's usually when a new expansion gets released, which starts the the whole process over again.  It's a never ending battle to catch up, and it's a real de-motivator to keep playing the game.



i'm speaking of player-driven content in which everyone can participate once hitting cap.  You are confusing what I said with the needless end-game dribble that is the "sorry state of MMOs" I was referring to.  What I'm talking about is meaningful content in which friends can play together meaningfully once again.. even when once being split apart by variance in leveling rates.





 

  DaddyDark

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/08/11
Posts: 138

2/12/12 7:58:44 AM#22

For me mentoring doesn't seem to be connected to the quality of the endgame at all. Giving bonuses for mentoring is to ruin it completely. You know - you want people to help each other, but truth is it's not really a help, when you get paid for it. People will find ways to exploit it (like mentoring only guild-mate alts) so occasional players for whom the system is designed in the first place will have trouble finding a mentor. Actually there are lots of people who want to help without any incentive in the player driven games like Ultima and EVE, where you are needed rather as a potential future long term business partner (crafter/resource supplier etc.), not just some guy who can make you pre-raid gear and/or someone you can have a quick dungeon run with. It is because most in-game items in such games are expendable and you'll need constant supply at a good price/from a friend.


Anyway - the only way to make the endgame funny is to make it ... you know... funny )) People play poker for years. There is no levels, no gear, the deck is always the same, but it is funny. The good MMO will be like that - during leveling you just learn the game rules and all the cards in the deck. After that you enter "endgame" or I would rather say "the game itself" and enjoy it. There should be no character progress (gear tiers etc.) during the endgame - except for growing player skill. That is why multiplayer shooters like CS, Battlefield, Modern Warfare are so popular. It is funny and entertaining to play them.


Most modern MMOs try to replace the entertainment part by "leveling" which is usually doing borring dull things you don't want to do (grind) to get to the "endgame" which is supposed to be like heaven, but it is usually the same thing you get right from the start in the multiplayer team shooters/coop games but worse, since the developers focused on the boring "leveling" part not on the "endgame".


  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1172

2/12/12 9:40:49 AM#23

The mentoring system in EQ2 feels rather broken to me.


A fellow guildmember ran me through a couple low level dungeons on the Freeport side, Wailing Caves and Fallen Gate to be exact, and it was ridiculous how he was shrugging off attacks from groups of enemies where an individual one would have dropped me in 2 hits.


He was barely taking damage at all.


I don't know what SOE's real intention was for mentoring, but I would doubt it has anything to do with allowing higher level players to group up with lower level players in order to help with challenging content. For as easily as the mentor blasts through the content, they may as well have been at their normal level, because any sense of challenge is obliterated. The only difference I see is between the mentee getting xp or not getting xp.


"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  User Deleted
2/12/12 9:47:10 AM#24
Originally posted by TangentPoint

The mentoring system in EQ2 feels rather broken to me.


A fellow guildmember ran me through a couple low level dungeons on the Freeport side, Wailing Caves and Fallen Gate to be exact, and it was ridiculous how he was shrugging off attacks from groups of enemies where an individual one would have dropped me in 2 hits.


He was barely taking damage at all.


I don't know what SOE's real intention was for mentoring, but I would doubt it has anything to do with allowing higher level players to group up with lower level players in order to help with challenging content. For as easily as the mentor blasts through the content, they may as well have been at their normal level, because any sense of challenge is obliterated. The only difference I see is between the mentee getting xp or not getting xp.

 

Well this to me goes to any "mentoring" system really.   In fact its kind of the same in a level-less game simply due to the fact you'd have someone with a complete skill set with you.

 

Could a buddy that just started SWG play with me?  sure... heck our on PA had a few people early in rifleman that always asked for groups.   Depending on your skill set they might not even get a shot off before the mobs were dead.. and in that game they had to do some damage to get the xp they were looking for.

 

So its the same relative thing... it does allow you to help someone but its not about "challenge" at all.

 

I'll tell you exactly how Mentoring is generally used in EQ2...

 

Level 90:   Will powerlevel for XX plat per hour.

 

Guy goes and buys either a SC card or and this may not be done anymore a box of cards (digital).   They then find someone in game who will play plat for one or the other... and then trade the plat for power leveling.

 

The 90 is simply doing it for plat or AA because they get a boost to xp for mentoring and all xp is going to AA...

 

or at least that is a common scenario in EQ2.. and I really like EQ2 but I'm not blind to what goes on there.

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1172

2/12/12 10:02:52 AM#25

Originally posted by Antarious


Originally posted by TangentPoint


The mentoring system in EQ2 feels rather broken to me.




A fellow guildmember ran me through a couple low level dungeons on the Freeport side, Wailing Caves and Fallen Gate to be exact, and it was ridiculous how he was shrugging off attacks from groups of enemies where an individual one would have dropped me in 2 hits.




He was barely taking damage at all.




I don't know what SOE's real intention was for mentoring, but I would doubt it has anything to do with allowing higher level players to group up with lower level players in order to help with challenging content. For as easily as the mentor blasts through the content, they may as well have been at their normal level, because any sense of challenge is obliterated. The only difference I see is between the mentee getting xp or not getting xp.



 


Well this to me goes to any "mentoring" system really.   In fact its kind of the same in a level-less game simply due to the fact you'd have someone with a complete skill set with you.


 


Could a buddy that just started SWG play with me?  sure... heck our on PA had a few people early in rifleman that always asked for groups.   Depending on your skill set they might not even get a shot off before the mobs were dead.. and in that game they had to do some damage to get the xp they were looking for.


 


So its the same relative thing... it does allow you to help someone but its not about "challenge" at all.


 


I'll tell you exactly how Mentoring is generally used in EQ2...


 


Level 90:   Will powerlevel for XX plat per hour.


 


Guy goes and buys either a SC card or and this may not be done anymore a box of cards (digital).   They then find someone in game who will play plat for one or the other... and then trade the plat for power leveling.


 


The 90 is simply doing it for plat or AA because they get a boost to xp for mentoring and all xp is going to AA...


 


or at least that is a common scenario in EQ2.. and I really like EQ2 but I'm not blind to what goes on there.



 


Good points.


I wasn't aware of the scenario you described above. But then, I've been away from the game for well over a year.


Though in my case, it was purely a guild-mate trying to help me through some content. I honestly expected it to be more of a challenge than what it was. I barely had time to unsheathe my weapon before everything was dead.


It makes me really doubt the sincerity of people I see asking for a mentoring system merely so they can group up with their lower level friends.


That is unless by "helping lower level players", SOE and other companies explicitly mean "power leveling lower level players".


 


"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  User Deleted
2/12/12 10:12:20 AM#26
Originally posted by TangentPoint
 

Good points.


I wasn't aware of the scenario you described above. But then, I've been away from the game for well over a year.


Though in my case, it was purely a guild-mate trying to help me through some content. I honestly expected it to be more of a challenge than what it was. I barely had time to unsheathe my weapon before everything was dead.


It makes me really doubt the sincerity of people I see asking for a mentoring system merely so they can group up with their lower level friends.


That is unless by "helping lower level players", SOE and other companies explicitly mean "power leveling lower level players".


 

 

Well to be honest I do not like level games at all for various reasons.   Well MMO's that is.. I don't really care in the RPG world.

 

You can help new friends or friends that come into a game.

 

It just regardless of level based or skill based...  in UO a 7x GM  (early uo) was going to be much better at combat or should be.. then a new guy with the starting gear and points.   Then again in UO if you wanted to raise a skill we could just fight each other and then you could level up your bandaging if you were using it etc... you didn't even have to fight mobs.

 

In a level game without mentoring I have to start a new toon... which I might do for a very good friend.   I'm not going to start a new character for every new person.

 

I mean at some point almost all games get top heavy and if you have a guild it may not have a lot of low level.   I do think its tough for new people if they can never group with their guild and usually nobody wants to help new people after a while.

 

So the systems can be good in many ways... if you watch 1-9 in eq2 especially on Antonia Bayle.. it will not take long to see what I was talking about.   There are people who use the system as intended.. but no .. you won't see the challenge in group content with someone mentoring.   Especially if they are say a Shadow Knight.. if they are raid geared and high AA they could probably pull most instances they are mentored down to.. in one pull and kill it all.   Just depends on how far down they are mentored... at some point that changes of course.

  Zarriya

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 227

2/13/12 7:41:39 AM#27

I just wanted to say +1 to mentoring programs

 

I have played a lot of the games he has mentioned and by far EQ2's mentorign system is one of the best things I have ever seen in an MMO.

 

  JessXIII

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 22

2/21/12 12:42:40 AM#28

playing with others in the endgame of a mmo, rather being forced since some of us don't have time to make online friends or even care is wrong. all content should scale, it's a game not a lifetime achievement. I'm the batman of games, and I will damage these studios until they fix it so people who have a life and little time can play every aspect of an mmo. People who like to group can still do that, but it shouldn't just cut anyone off because their schedule or preference is different. I don't mind helping people in a mmo but not for lengthy amounts of time and never friendships. It's insulting the developers believe everyone is shares the same mentality. I will bring them down and I have in some ways already since I already can have access to group content, solo anytime I want with any game I play.


  Silverbranch

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/31/10
Posts: 185

Wherever you go, there you are.

3/10/12 9:05:26 AM#29

Sort of a tough nut to crack, as it comes down to Human Nature.


As long as there is a "linear" trail of rewards and capability pointed straight up at the sky, "mentoring", even grouping with people in satisfying ways (as opposed to the alternate experience) is going to be chancy, at best.


People just "want their STUFF".  That's why they log in (most of them).  That's their focus, and helping others to the ideal of actual Mentoring principles is going to be a rare thing to encounter.  Because that capability, that aptitude, is a rarity to begin with in the human animal itself.


There are a whole lot of people who THINK they are the shizznits, the "right" person to lead, etc., but the plain fact of the matter is:  It's the 10% with that ability, the other 90% have "talents" in other areas.  /shrug


So how can a game infrastructure promote team-play?  Even learning in a group play environment?  There's no way we can have any expectation a game structure can be built to alter human nature itself.  But it can be built in a way to at least provide the outlets for participation in that area.


Participation.  Ability to Participate (with others).  Competition.  Ability to Compete (with others).


IMO key factors that destabilize an entire game's community are the very things used in that game to motivate them, because it's flat out calibrated incorrectly:  Progression scaling and power levels, particularly at End Game, because it's too often open ended.


There's no Domain of Participation established for the entire playerbase.  It's little teeny stacks of participatory zones stacked on top of each other, and at the top what rules all is the End Game (cap) level with end-game stats/gear, acquired through uncounted hours of GRINDING to push Faction Reps, etc., to the max.


In that model there is ZERO mode or ability for a level 1-5 to participate with anyone at the cap, or even at level 20.


I'm of the opinion the scaling of progression and power scaling should be set to represent a global domain.  That we should cater to bigger and better and more powerful as you level, because that's basic to time spent as well, but not so much so that the human factor can be totally negated simply by virtue of numbers packed on a character.


Thus, taking an example from World PvP anyways, 15 to 20 level five's should in fact have a chance to kill a capped character.  Assuming they knew how to play, move their feet, etc.


Once you at least establish SOME mode, even if small, of ability to participate with others across all levels, you'll never see more "mentoring" going on.  Even then it will be minor, but at least not minimized.


Because as long as game's continue to promote open-ended power climbs straight up that maximize player attenuations from each other in participation, you will minimize motivation stop doing "relevant stuff" and backpedal into sheer charity.


And, btw, I'm a guy to is above average in going out of my way to help people.


Wherever you go, there you are.

  Silverbranch

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/31/10
Posts: 185

Wherever you go, there you are.

3/10/12 9:17:33 AM#30

Originally posted by JessXIII

playing with others in the endgame of a mmo, rather being forced since some of us don't have time to make online friends or even care is wrong. all content should scale, it's a game not a lifetime achievement. I'm the batman of games, and I will damage these studios until they fix it so people who have a life and little time can play every aspect of an mmo. People who like to group can still do that, but it shouldn't just cut anyone off because their schedule or preference is different. I don't mind helping people in a mmo but not for lengthy amounts of time and never friendships. It's insulting the developers believe everyone is shares the same mentality. I will bring them down and I have in some ways already since I already can have access to group content, solo anytime I want with any game I play.





 


This is where the Henchmen / Hero system in Guild Wars shines, because it does exactly what you describe:


Provides for a mechanic that enables people to auto-fill the Party Roster, as needed, to go out and complete (most) challenges.


Whether you are alone, and no on in your guild is on yet.  Whether it's just two or three of you.  Regardless of who's available or not, PuG people or not, people not on due to time of day, day of week, on vacation or not . . .


. . . you have a means to partake of most of the meal a game has to offer, instead of being held hostage to missing 1/2 the content in a zone because you can't find a group.


Wherever you go, there you are.

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