All these great features of old, were inconveniences. That's why we have MMO-Lite today.

Instances was made to combat fighting over spawns and rediculous group lists, not to mention other people sending trains of mobs to your location wiping your group. You and I may think this adds a fun unpredictable risk factor, that makes it that much more great, doesn't mean others felt the same way. There were some real hardcore nerd raging going on back then, by people that simply couldn't handle that type of mechanics emotionally

All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there

None instanced dungeons helped foster community. You would help other groups with bad pulls if you happened to be in the vicinity. You would help recover their corpses if they wiped. People used the general chat in whatever dungeon they were camping to chat with other groups in the same area, which again meant you got to know people outside your own guild or circle of friends. I've had some fun conversations in lower guk late nights camping that haste sash/ykesha.

Sometimes while waiting for a spot in a group you would hang around helping out with heals and buffs etc. This is something completely missing in todays MMOs because not only have we done away with open dungeons but buffs too, that actually made a difference. We only get 1 tenth of them if even that. Take SWTOR as an example or even Rift. You get 1 buff to cast on others that's it. Two if you are lucky. What MMO today do you have people out there asking for buffs. Practically none.

The downside to all the "positive" things was frustations of dying by some other players hands, because they ran past your group with 10 mobs on their tail. You had to find something to do while being on the list to get a group in a good xp spot. If you wanted to raid, you had to rush it, or you would be kicking and and screaming at that other guild who beat you to the punch, while you were preparing. Or worse case scenario a jerkoff guild with a dedicated group running interference for you so you couldn't prepare in time

So yes you can't have it all. You can't whine about kill stealing, mob trains and griefers getting you killed for fun while at the same time complain todays game has no community and how instances are the devil. You along with everybody else are the reason for that

Originally posted by Starpower

All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there

 

I'd say they were taken away because the non-gamers didn't want them there.

There just happened to be a lot more non-gamers than gamers for companies to capitalize on.

Those non-gamers then became the modern-day "gamers" leaving us old gamers in a completely separate, and largely neglected, category.

OP if you aren't deadset on a fantasy settign PM me I know of a great Sci Fi Sandbox MMO that I have been playing for 4 years.

I don't understand why the carebears make a distinction between being killed by a pvp player or an npc. What difference does it make? Oh ya the player is an actual challenge. These new players have had everything handed to them since birth, adn it refelcts in the way they play and want to play their MMO's.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Starpower

All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there

 

I'd say they were taken away because the non-gamers didn't want them there.

There just happened to be a lot more non-gamers than gamers for companies to capitalize on.

Those non-gamers then became the modern-day "gamers" leaving us old gamers in a completely separate, and largely neglected, category.

No

It's pretty simple really. People back then were fed up with the then current systems of doing things. Everybody was a real gamer back then. MMOs weren't mainstream so those that played were fans of a relatively new genre. The majority back then were fed up with timesinks and every negative aspects of the games.

The whining and complaing came from both the top of the crop of hardcore raiders to the casual weekend warrior.

The people today looking back wishing it was 99' all over again, are the same people who complained back then. The only difference is they the gamers, had no idea what they were asking for. They thought they could retain all the positive aspects of a real MMO, while do away with all the bad. Problem was, a lot of those things walked hand in hand. People had fun in East Commonlands while selling stuff because there were no auction house, people developed tight bonds with eachother because death penalties were unforgiving forcing you to stick to people you knew could play. No xp quest system meant you sat still in one spot with a group for hours, while chatting and getting to know each other because you were bored.

All the negative crap people say they hope never come back spawned a whole host of positive things too you will never get back as well

This is one of the main reasons why developers shouldn't take directions from gamers. They often ask for things they don't see the full ramifications of.

I do agree with OP on pretty much everything... MMO players pretty much get everything handed to them on a silver plate nowadays -_-'

Swtor must be the best example yes, it was easy to get good gear all the way to 50, and the time it took to reach lvl 50 was a joke, (this coming from a former swtor "fanboy").

But then again, I am not a big fan of hardcore Grinding either :P

I do want to point out though, (and this is kind of off topic, but since you mentioned it)

2 weeks to max lvl in TERA is an Exaggeration, I played the korean version of TERA, and we're talking about a minumum of 5 hours daily, and reached lvl 41 in about 3-4 weeks. This was at launch though, I don't really know if they nerfed the leveling curve, and if they did, I say they took a step backwards >.>

But sorry, that last part was off topic x3

Back to the discussion about the sad evolution of MMORPGs :<

I'm certainly with you OP. Though we must also take into account the fact that when the olden mmorpg's came out they were fresh to us, just like SWTOR im sure feels fresh to people new to the scene.

It's all relative i suppose, but it's undeniable that the whole 'Massively Multiplayer' part of the equation is becoming less and less important to most developers.

Open dungeons with dozens of other players in them have a magic that cannot be felt in instanced dungeons.

Here is how you have non-instanced dungeons without mob camping: Make all mobs simply drop money and have player crafting as the only source of gear.

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Starpower

All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there

 

I'd say they were taken away because the non-gamers didn't want them there.

There just happened to be a lot more non-gamers than gamers for companies to capitalize on.

Those non-gamers then became the modern-day "gamers" leaving us old gamers in a completely separate, and largely neglected, category.

No

 

It's pretty simple really. People back then were fed up with the then current systems of doing things. Everybody was a real gamer back then. MMOs weren't mainstream so those that played were fans of a relatively new genre. The majority back then were fed up with timesinks and every negative aspects of the games.

 

The whining and complaing came from both the top of the crop of hardcore raiders to the casual weekend warrior.

 

 

The people today looking back wishing it was 99' all over again, are the same people who complained back then. The only difference is they the gamers, had no idea what they were asking for. They thought they could retain all the positive aspects of a real MMO, while do away with all the bad. Problem was, a lot of those things walked hand in hand. People had fun in East Commonlands while selling stuff because there were no auction house, people developed tight bonds with eachother because death penalties were unforgiving forcing you to stick to people you knew could play. No xp quest system meant you sat still in one spot with a group for hours, while chatting and getting to know each other because you were bored.

All the negative crap people say they hope never come back spawned a whole host of positive things too you will never get back as well

 

This is one of the main reasons why developers shouldn't take directions from gamers. They often ask for things they don't see the full ramifications of.

Considering gamers have been complaining about the "dumbing down" of MMORPGs since it first began happening (Think EQ PoP/Luclin/LDoN), I would say you are mistaken, sir.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Considering gamers have been complaining about the "dumbing down" of MMORPGs since it first began happening (Think EQ PoP/Luclin/LDoN), I would say you are mistaken, sir.

My post pretty much explain why that's the case

I would say: Asherons Call is the place to be.

Need maybe some graphics upgrading. But it is the best MMO I ever played. Alas it wont run on newer computers. Please Turbine..make an upgrade. I dont need state of the art graphics..but hey you guys made the perfect MMO.....

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Timukas

Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple. 

And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.

Again, this sort of mechanic would work great in a single player RPG, but it would be a real problem for MMOs. You would inevitably end up with characters that can do everything. This lessens the reason to group when everyone's class is "god".

 

I liked the way Sword of the New World handled their dungeons. The only thing that was instanced was the boss everything else was open and pretty damn big. I'm not saying the game was great but that aspect of it was.

Originally posted by AdamTM

its just you

WRONG.

I'm with you OP.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Timukas

Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple. 

And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.

Again, this sort of mechanic would work great in a single player RPG, but it would be a real problem for MMOs. You would inevitably end up with characters that can do everything. This lessens the reason to group when everyone's class is "god".

 

 

It would take about 25years to max out every skill in EvE. No one is "god"

I'll admit I haven't properly tried EvE. To be honest I'm not particularly into sci-fi to begin with, but I played the game for about half an hour and just ended up floating around in space completely clueless as to what I was supposed to do or how to play. Seemed pretty dull, so I decided to drop it.

I have been curious to try it again and give it more time...maybe soon.

Couldn't agree more with OP... Also wrote something similar on my blog a while back (http://www.pagesfromsages.com/?action=showentry&entry=991).

Personally I loved Lineage II and Vanguard, but both have 2 bad things atm.
- Lineage II: new players can do now within 1 month what took me over 3 years to accomplish: level 85 and awakening. Not to mention, L2 is now so much different than it was before GoD, that I left :(
- Vanguard: hosted by SOE (nuf said), and player base is too small to actually pay for it.

About TERA and hitting cap in 2 weeks... Yes that was at release and I heard that the grind has been added later on. Right now I've played it for about 5 hours (leveling, not counting exploration time), and I'm level 11. I'm not sure how things go from here, but with the same playstyle in most other MMOs, I'd be a lot higher already.

Your point about Aion is valid, but it's too PvP centered for my taste. Don't get me wrong, I do like PvP, but not as it's done in Aion (I like old-school L2 PvP more...)

The op discribes the early Aion (well just without the instanced dungeon), and we know how bad it failed cause ALL people were whining how hard the grind is and how low the droprates are.

Face it, this kind of mmo dont work for western games...

Originally posted by Damage99

Originally posted by AdamTM

its just you

WRONG.

 

I'm with you OP.

Ok fine, its just him and you then.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Damage99

Originally posted by AdamTM

its just you

WRONG.

 

I'm with you OP.

Ok fine, its just him and you then.

Wrong again.

Yes, people actually like stuff you dont like.

I think its partly because MMOs have been made more fast paced to make it more of an action/adventure game rather then an RPG game. Not saying thats a bad thing, but some people, I think OP included may prefer the slower paced combat system. The reason I say this is in games like EQ, it took a little longer to kill a mob then it does in say, WoW. Even an even coned or yellow coned mob took the effort of the entire group beating down/tanking/healing to kill it. Having an add may require having CC since 2 and espically 3 mobs were going to overwhelm the group.

What that means is for the most part, there was no soloing or efficent soloing.(Magicians, Necromancers, Druids and I believe later Wizards excluded if they knew what they were doing.) Some may have felt that it wasn't very heroic for it to take five adventures to kill one undead frogman or whatever else. Nor is sitting around waiting for a named mob to respawn considered exactly heroic. So instead you have mobs which was basically fodder only there to make you feel powerful, interspaced with mobs that it takes about a minute to kill all of them, all leading up to killing some boss with some cool fight mechanics/graphics/dialog/etc.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, after all it is kind of cool to appear more like some badass hero, but it also means; instanced dungeons, weak mobs, generally fast leveling and little time to chat with other gamers. I include fast leveling because with fast paced combat and slow leveling the game is just considered an Asian grindfest.

I think there is room for a game similar to EQ's style of play, or at least its 1999-2003 playstyle, since I havent played it since then. I rather doubt the game would be as big as WoW, but then again why would it have to be. I still think Vanguard just launched with too many bugs or wasn't optimized enough, I know thats why I quit after 2 days. Regardless both MMO styles are valid since obviously lots of people enjoy the faster paced gameplay, and others may prefer the slower paced(I'm assuming Vanguard players.)

Anyways thats just my take, I could be way off.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Damage99

Originally posted by AdamTM

its just you

WRONG.

 

I'm with you OP.

Ok fine, its just him and you then.

Wrong again.

Yes, people actually like stuff you dont like.

A simple concept which is so hard to understand for some people.

Originally posted by vladww

Many old gamers agree with the OP, including me

+1