Originally posted by DJJazzy

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DJJazzy

What's the key to retention? The people you play with.

Yes but if that's all that mattered my TOR guild would still be at 100% retention. We've played together for years (since 03) and love playing together.

Well I agree that the game has to be engaging as well. However, if you take out the social aspect of mmos, they become very poor single player games.

WoW basically turned into an expensive chat room for me the last 6 years I played. I hated the gameplay but really enjoyed the guild and the people I played with. If not for them, I would have stopped playing WoW after a month.

I agree, but I will point out that I couldn't play WOW with my guild :p (that was their pick after SWG). Just couldn't do it.. Heh

Originally posted by Guileplayer

Originally posted by RizelStar
I have a question, if you play Gw 2 and buy an xpac for a whole how much does that cost someone? Oh by the way endgame is the game itself. What's funny is sub games with endgames still struggle with retention because in all honesty it's not quantity it's quality and if not high quality then it got to be good in both and that has yet to happen. You don't need endgame like other mmos to hold retention you want the whole game to do that and only time will tell and only God knows but if you don't believe in him then believe in time because it will give you the actually answer when it comes. I could imagine it being hard to adapt too.

I think "classic" endgame are a requirement for MMOs to hold players. WoW is what it is for its raids and pvp. SWTOR is doing allright atm too.  EQ did well for many years. "Internet hype" unfortuntely don't hold up very well against the real world buyers. If internet reflected on what society thinks then Ron Paul would have been president 8 times over by now.

Subscription based need to hold the players all the time.

B2P like Guild Wars only need them to buy the box + expansion packs. Of course people must still feel a connection to the game, they need a reason to buy it, if they think "boring" they won't buy it. But if an expansion pack comes out every six months, and the only play exactly one day, after which they burned through the new content, it's not a problem for ArenaNet, as long as there are still enough people overall.

As this is still the case with Guild Wars after 7 years, i don't see why Guild Wars 2 would have problems.

It's like when people renew their subscription each month only to play only a few hours. It's only a problem if the do not renew it, not if the do not play all the time.

Originally posted by Master10K

And yet there are so many subsciption based games out there that fail to retain the majority of their players for a substantial amount of time and they all seem to end up going F2P now.

Well, yeah.  I'm not trying to knock the B2P model AT ALL.  I'm just thinking either way, retention is still important.  Personally, I agree with Distopia, that it's even part of what makes MMOs worth playing, regardless of payment model.  If I think the game is just going to dead-end at lv.50, I won't have much interest in even getting there.

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by toddze

Players are a lot more inclined to look back at a game if they dont have to re-sub. GW1 is proof of that.

More, but how much more?  So much more that the game doesn't need to worry about retention at all?  I think that's only true of some players, but no idea how many.

This is true, but I could apply what you just said to your initial post and it would be just as true. You don't know that "a lot of players" avoid a game once they've moved on entirely. 

Hence the question mark.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm trying to get some discussion going here, because its something I'm curious about.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by nilden

With no subscription I think more people would be inclinded to check back or play when they feel like it. Since people don't unsubscribe they might get bored and quit for a bit but the door is always freely open... I don't think retention is really an issue at all with that business model.

Why even create an "MMO" if you do not plan to keep people playing for long periods? This thinking makes no sense to me, of course retention matters, the whole point of an MMO is to keep people playing (sub or not), that's the whole point of the genre.

Your right but not having to pay 15$ a month is a huge reason to play the game. I probably wouldn't have played Guild Wars half as much if it had a sub to keep up.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by toddze

Players are a lot more inclined to look back at a game if they dont have to re-sub. GW1 is proof of that.

More, but how much more?  So much more that the game doesn't need to worry about retention at all?  I think that's only true of some players, but no idea how many.

This is true, but I could apply what you just said to your initial post and it would be just as true. You don't know that "a lot of players" avoid a game once they've moved on entirely. 

 

Hence the question mark.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm trying to get some discussion going here, because its something I'm curious about.

Ofcourse retention matters man. If people log in and see there aren't enough players to play with then they will quit the game too. IMO GW2 will end up being something you log on, play in like 5 bgs and then log off. Since there's no reward or proper endgame or timesinks i dont see players playing this as their main game. Oh and if MOP comes out after GW2 then i see it taking a massive hit activity wise. But that goes for all MMOs.

Where did you get the notion that retention doesn't matter? Without other players to play with, what's the point of an MMO?

If anything, GW2 will have a higher retention rate due to the B2P model.

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by nilden

With no subscription I think more people would be inclinded to check back or play when they feel like it. Since people don't unsubscribe they might get bored and quit for a bit but the door is always freely open... I don't think retention is really an issue at all with that business model.

Why even create an "MMO" if you do not plan to keep people playing for long periods? This thinking makes no sense to me, of course retention matters, the whole point of an MMO is to keep people playing (sub or not), that's the whole point of the genre.

Your right but not having to pay 15$ a month is a huge reason to play the game. I probably wouldn't have played Guild Wars half as much if it had a sub to keep up.

I agree there, the no monthly charge does add some incentive, but the rest lies in the quality of the game as well as community. I think the PVP population will always be healthy, it's PVE I'm not so sure about, for this world structure to work it will need players IMO, even considering the content scales down to just one soloer.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Master10K

And yet there are so many subsciption based games out there that fail to retain the majority of their players for a substantial amount of time and they all seem to end up going F2P now.

 

Well, yeah.  I'm not trying to knock the B2P model AT ALL.  I'm just thinking either way, retention is still important.  Personally, I agree with Distopia, that it's even part of what makes MMOs worth playing, regardless of payment model.  If I think the game is just going to dead-end at lv.50, I won't have much interest in even getting there.

I wouldn't say it has 'no end game', it just doesn't have raiding. GW1 has tuns of post-cap content, but not raiding. In terms of the question, I don't think Retention does matter so much. I've been playing GW for half a decade on and off and I've only ever spent about $60. That includes a re-purchase through steam for convenience when the trilogy and GWEN was on sale (got them for about $20) and four or five purchases from the store, mostly outfits but also missions and bank space. Even with this openness you'd think the number of active players would vary wildly, but there are enough 'big fans' who have stuck with GW and played it consistantly for years.

I think GW2 will be much the same. It might not have the retention of say WoW, but it doesn't need it. As long as enough people buy the title at release (and it looks to be very successful in that respect) it doesn't matter how many people play it at any time. I expect to be the type of player who sticks with the game for years, but if I just come back for expansions, or play a dozen hours a month or less, in the end it's my purchases that matter.

Franklly I think a lot of poeple don't really quite yet understand just how liberating it will be not having to pay $15 a month. You'll never feel that (like with WoW), you are almost forced to keep playing simply because of the money you've invested over the years. Like any other game you might play it for a few weeks at launch, quit or move on to another game and just come back, any time you like.

I think having no subscription fee is also why the MMOGs that have gone free* (reduced accounts, limited slots.. like AoC, LotRO, DCUO) have seen sharp upturns in new accounts. Retention may still be a problem but if you know you can just return to a game, for free, any time you want.. I think folks will find they end up playing the game more often over the long term, then games they are burnt out in but return only because of the thousands of dollars they've spent over half a dozen years in their 'main MMOG'. I have friends who have played WoW for 8 years, with multiple accounts, tuns of extra purchases like pets, character name changes, server changes, mounts.. you name it. It all adds up to several thousand dollars spent and he won't leave simply because of that investment. No matter how bored he gets, he simply will not leave the game. With GW2, he'll never have that feeling again.

Originally posted by Fion

I wouldn't say it has 'no end game', it just doesn't have raiding. GW1 has tuns of post-cap content, but not raiding. In terms of the question, I don't think Retention does matter so much. I've been playing GW for half a decade on and off and I've only ever spent about $60. That includes a re-purchase through steam for convenience when the trilogy and GWEN was on sale (got them for about $20) and four or five purchases from the store, mostly outfits but also missions and bank space. Even with this openness you'd think the number of active players would vary wildly, but there are enough 'big fans' who have stuck with GW and played it consistantly for years.

I think GW2 will be much the same. It might not have the retention of say WoW, but it doesn't need it. As long as enough people buy the title at release (and it looks to be very successful in that respect) it doesn't matter how many people play it at any time. I expect to be the type of player who sticks with the game for years, but if I just come back for expansions, or play a dozen hours a month or less, in the end it's my purchases that matter.

Franklly I think a lot of poeple don't really quite yet understand just how liberating it will be not having to pay $15 a month. You'll never feel that (like with WoW), you are almost forced to keep playing simply because of the money you've invested over the years. Like any other game you might play it for a few weeks at launch, quit or move on to another game and just come back, any time you like.

I think having no subscription fee is also why the MMOGs that have gone free* (reduced accounts, limited slots.. like AoC, LotRO, DCUO) have seen sharp upturns in new accounts. Retention may still be a problem but if you know you can just return to a game, for free, any time you want.. I think folks will find they end up playing the game more often over the long term, then games they are burnt out in but return only because of the thousands of dollars they've spent over half a dozen years in their 'main MMOG'. I have friends who have played WoW for 8 years, with multiple accounts, tuns of extra purchases like pets, character name changes, server changes, mounts.. you name it. It all adds up to several thousand dollars spent and he won't leave simply because of that investment. No matter how bored he gets, he simply will not leave the game. With GW2, he'll never have that feeling again.

Sure retention matter, what shouldn't matter are all the artificial mechanism put in place by developers to force retention onto the player psychology. But retention as a success sign do matter,  its so much better to play a successful game, it better for the dev team also who is supposed to be able to poor more work in to it and/or future sequel (but was not the case for most big titles). It's just healthier for everyone, the players, the developers, everyone.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by toddze

Players are a lot more inclined to look back at a game if they dont have to re-sub. GW1 is proof of that.

More, but how much more?  So much more that the game doesn't need to worry about retention at all?  I think that's only true of some players, but no idea how many.

This is true, but I could apply what you just said to your initial post and it would be just as true. You don't know that "a lot of players" avoid a game once they've moved on entirely. 

 

Hence the question mark.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm trying to get some discussion going here, because its something I'm curious about.

Yeah I get what you're saying, but as none of us are privy to those numbers, you can only go by the trend and past experiences. Even companies who give out active player numbers tend to bloat, exaggerate and twist just what their retention is, so I'd take those numbers with a grain of salt. Just the same, F2P games and GW1's B2P model didn't have problems with retention or, if they did/do, it hasn't affected profits. F2P gaming probably makes more money than P2P these days unless you have WoW's numbers, which none this side of the ocean do.

So question for you, are you really worried about sub retention, or are you more concerned that without it developers will let content stagnate? Whether or not GW2 will end up a ghost town remains to be seen, but many past P2P MMOs will show you that that has nothing to do with what people are paying and more with what they are paying ~for~. If it's content, you have even less reason to worry since offering content is the only way for them to make money, so I'm pretty sure they'll all but throw it at us at a reasonable schedule. I'm sure they do indeed want a "thriving" game and offering new and repeatable content is how they aim to create that.

As for the endgame thing you mentioned briefly in your first post, the point isn't so much that GW2 has no "endgame" - a term coined by people that have exhausted the content of the game and no longer get any benefit from it thus must be given something else to do - but rather that the game isn't supposed to end. If the entire game is as doable at cap as it is as a noob, that seems like a lot more reasons than people have ever had before to continue playing.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Master10K

And yet there are so many subsciption based games out there that fail to retain the majority of their players for a substantial amount of time and they all seem to end up going F2P now.

 Well, yeah.  I'm not trying to knock the B2P model AT ALL.  I'm just thinking either way, retention is still important.  Personally, I agree with Distopia, that it's even part of what makes MMOs worth playing, regardless of payment model.  If I think the game is just going to dead-end at lv.50, I won't have much interest in even getting there.

Well MMO retention comes in the form of group-oriented goals and GW2 will have a good amount of that. In the end, all the really matters is whether the game remains engaging enough for players to return to and GW2 will definitely be that for the average PvP'er, achievement whore, alt-holic, etc.  I could care less about the typical hardcore raider who wants retention in the form of the gear treadmill, or those that want "X" sandbox feature. GW2 will be the kind of game where a person can play it for a while, drop it for the next big thing (like Skyrim), and it will still be there to return to, without having to resub, just to check what's new (Had that problem with Rift lately).

Weird things can affect retention rates in games. The act of forking out cash, signing up some new u'name and password in another form, downloading a bunch of data, learning the game (esp. mmos that crucial starter area - lol)...

But yes retention is important, if ppl are going away is it because of some of the steps above? Or is it that the game did not find it's market/target audience or just plainly it should never have been made or it's a really bad game?

If ppl are sticking around after all the above, then something's working. I think GW2 has a ton of features/design that suggests on both accounts ppl may find it a better overall experience by comparison to other mmos - and that initself is worth sticking with to begin with. Circular but true. It seems you can CHOOSE a variety of game modes at any stage of the game, this is the best thing imo about this mmo, I don't think about PvE: "Oh for the love of all that is sacred & holy, I've now got to go back and grind another level/fetch quest/loot drop roll, when I'm done with this current pvp coffee break... & where is everybody??"

Originally posted by Vhaln

I've seen a few comments about GW2, to the effect of something like, since it's B2P, it doesn't need an endgame, it doesn't need retention, it doesn't need any of that, because they aren't invested in keeping players subscribing month after month.  They can focus on just making the leveling experience fun, and that's enough.

 Don't recall seeing that comment, certainly not a common one.

..but, is a subscription really that much different than wanting people to buy xpacs?  Or even to have a thriving game that will keep selling more and more boxes, due to its popularity?  I mean, of course being B2P is a big difference in some ways, but in terms of retention?  

 yep, xpac you pay for the expansion if you decide you want it. sub you play the publisher in advance.  the former gives power toe the consumer.  a good developer embraces this.   Its obvious what is better for game players (not shareholders)

Just seems to me that for a lot of players, once they leave an MMO, they move on, without really looking back.  Even if there isn't a sub to worry about.  So I'm just wondering if retention might really be just as important for GW2 as it is for any other MMO.  They do still want a thriving game, that's going to sell expansions, and whatever else, right?

Retention is important for any game, the only difference with GW2 is that it is does not use peer pressure and the 'must keep up with gear' addiction cycle to motivate, it relies on the expansions entirely, it relies on the game being good through every expansion.

I think sub based games need retention in the form of people playing frequently.  I think if people do quit a sub game they might come back eventually, or they might not at all.

I think what GW2 needs is people to think of it positively.  Even if someone puts it down for a while for whatever reason, they might come back if an expansion looks good (or simply just because they can come back without any hassle).

I think it's very important to ArenaNet that people feel this way.  For example, look at the way they're talking about adding new dynamic events continuously from day one.  It's so that the game feels fresh when people replay a zone and see 10 or 20 events they didn't see before.  That's not content they're being paid for, and if all they cared about were box sales they wouldn't do it.  But it is the kind of thing that will make people think that ArenaNet values their players, who will then reward them in return.

When leveling, the promise of the next level is enough to keep players interested as long as the journey is compelling enough.  When you reach the max level; however, you no longer have the promise of reaching another character level to keep you going.  As a result, most of everything that constitutes "endgame" in modern MMORPGs revolves around artificial mechanics that encourage sub retention, hence endlessly grinding dungeons in WoW for better gear which then allows you access to higher end dungeons which give you better gear which give you access to gear in raid zones.  Heck, in WoW, you're even limited as to how many badges you can earn per week in order to prevent you from speeding too fast through the content.  Raiding itself is a prime example of stupid mechanics designed for no other purpose than to keep you paying them money every month.  The very idea that you go into an area with 10-20 other players in hopes that the one item for your class drops and that you are the one out of 3 other players of the same class that wins the roll.  It seems that if developers were interested in making the game rewarding rather than a grind where you just keep treading the hampster wheel, they have thought up a better loot method.

With Guild Wars 2, I've heard a lot of talk from Arenanet about how they just want to make a fun game that doesn't have the traditional MMORPG grind, but what I have not heard from them is any talk about how they still intend to keep players longterm even without these traditional retention mechanics.  I think it's great that they seek to get away from that, but if they want to do it successfully, they're going to have to come up with a better way to retain players and not simply not caring whether or not they retain anyone.  I see GW2 as a collection of minigames, glorified public quests, PvP, and dungeons -- something that sounds like a lot of fun for a month or two but also something I can see myself exhausting shortly afterwards much like the original Guild Wars.  Rolling alts and doing who knows what other menial tasks which have kept the 2,000 people still playing Guild Wars for all these years when the game has been pretty much forgotten by pretty much everyone else simply isn't going to suite me, and unless they do a better job with meaningful content at the level cap, GW2 really won't be a long term destination for most people -- especially the community of this website.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

When leveling, the promise of the next level is enough to keep players interested as long as the journey is compelling enough.  When you reach the max level; however, you no longer have the promise of reaching another character level to keep you going.  As a result, most of everything that constitutes "endgame" in modern MMORPGs revolves around artificial mechanics that encourage sub retention, hence endlessly grinding dungeons in WoW for better gear which then allows you access to higher end dungeons which give you better gear which give you access to gear in raid zones.  Heck, in WoW, you're even limited as to how many badges you can earn per week in order to prevent you from speeding too fast through the content.  Raiding itself is a prime example of stupid mechanics designed for no other purpose than to keep you paying them money every month.  The very idea that you go into an area with 10-20 other players in hopes that the one item for your class drops and that you are the one out of 3 other players of the same class that wins the roll.  It seems that if developers were interested in making the game rewarding rather than a grind where you just keep treading the hampster wheel, they have thought up a better loot method.

With Guild Wars 2, I've heard a lot of talk from Arenanet about how they just want to make a fun game that doesn't have the traditional MMORPG grind, but what I have not heard from them is any talk about how they still intend to keep players longterm even without these traditional retention mechanics.  I think it's great that they seek to get away from that, but if they want to do it successfully, they're going to have to come up with a better way to retain players and not simply not caring whether or not they retain anyone.  I see GW2 as a collection of minigames, glorified public quests, PvP, and dungeons -- something that sounds like a lot of fun for a month or two but also something I can see myself exhausting shortly afterwards much like the original Guild Wars.  Rolling alts and doing who knows what other menial tasks which have kept the 2,000 people still playing Guild Wars for all these years when the game has been pretty much forgotten by pretty much everyone else simply isn't going to suite me, and unless they do a better job with meaningful content at the level cap, GW2 really won't be a long term destination for most people -- especially the community of this website.

wow very well put man. I agree with you that i don't see Guild Wars 2 having anything long term for players to stick around. GW2 is gonna end up having the same fate as GW 1 IMO.