This is a great post, OP!

There is nothing better than having the freedom to infiltrate the opposing faction's main city etc via World PvP. The freedom to do so is intoxicating. However, I agree that harsh sanctions are a must, as relentless griefing is what gives World PvP its bad name. In fact, I would go as far as flagging griefers to the point where they would drop all of their gear upon death.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by MacroHard

here's a scenario for ya:

1. griefer spends an hour in a lower level zone wrecklessly killing everyone he sees.  No one even near his level seems to be notified.  Life is very entertaining!
2. a couple hours pass and griefer gets a guild notification that the guild's town is under attack by military units from NPC towns that share factions with all those low levels.
3. Town has been faced with multiple waves of military units for the past few hours (IRL).  The guild mates who were logged on had to spend time defending the town instead of doing what they originally logged on to do.
4. griefer is flamed and kicked from guild
5. griefer laughs and continues killing low levels.
6. NPCs find griefer and hunt him down for his bounty. 
7. NPCs loot some gold off of griefer's corpse
8. NPCs are seen talking and laughing over their catch as they head back to the town they came from to claim their rewards.
9. Griefer finds he can't res for an unusually long period of time and coincides with how much griefing he did.

This list could keep going but I think this would be sufficient to get the point across that the world frowns upon the behavior and in the end just ended up costing the griefer lots of needlessly wasted time, a bit of money, and a guild.  Worth it?

You attract NPCs you have permission to kill? Grind, grind, grind away those NPCs!

lol... no.  No experience or benefit is gained by being under siege from military NPCs attacking your guild.  If you ignore them, no more guild town.

One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

Originally posted by Quirhid

What is there to stop clans from declaring war against everyone? And is there a way to prevent clan-hopping? And are all these restrictions really worth it? The more complicated the system gets, the more chance there is for exploits.

Same can be said on the other side: more opportunity for a more effective system through complexity.  As for exploits.. that's the whole point of testing a game before relase..

Originally posted by Hluill

One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

 

that's why we are talking about different solutions to deter griefing.  As long as you're here, read a post or two.  Might learn something.

I like how GW2 is going to handle it... all the open world PvP will take place in the Mists, essentially a zone dedicated to 2 week long server vs server vs server battles where anything goes. In the PvE world of your server there will be no ability to attack anyone... you're all on the same side against the Elder Dragons and their minions after all. Hell, they're making it damn near impossible to grief at all in the PvE world.

So you want to enjoy PvE, stick to your server and have at it. You  want to PK others? Go to the Mists and best of luck to you. Everyone else there (from the other servers) will be looking for you too.

Dont like PvP? Dont play on a PvP server or play a PvP centric game. There is MORE PvE focused games than you can poke a stick at and only a handfull of PvP focused games.

Also, stop keyboard turning.

Originally posted by Volkon

I like how GW2 is going to handle it... all the open world PvP will take place in the Mists, essentially a zone dedicated to 2 week long server vs server vs server battles where anything goes. In the PvE world of your server there will be no ability to attack anyone... you're all on the same side against the Elder Dragons and their minions after all. Hell, they're making it damn near impossible to grief at all in the PvE world.

 

So you want to enjoy PvE, stick to your server and have at it. You  want to PK others? Go to the Mists and best of luck to you. Everyone else there (from the other servers) will be looking for you too.

This system of zoned combat preference is nothing new.  Although it arguably works, it of course greatly limits location where free-range PvP can take place.  On the upside though, you explaining the justification as to how it works makes a lot of sense and I would say the "implementation" aspect sounds like it's being done correctly (immersionally speaking).

Originally posted by karmath

Dont like PvP? Dont play on a PvP server or play a PvP centric game. There is MORE PvE focused games than you can poke a stick at and only a handfull of PvP focused games.

Also, stop keyboard turning.

servers based on combat preference is an immersion breaker and the industry needs to get past such garbage so players of all types and preferences can enjoy a single game atmosphere.. one that doesn't have to be artificially split up.  That's my goal, anyways.

Originally posted by Palladin

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by maplestone

The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

This.     If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.

accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in

The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.

This is exactly what the industry does NOT need more of, devs trying to please everyone at the same time. Trying to merge conflicting interests only creates problems for both sides, then no one is happy.

Originally posted by MacroHard

Originally posted by karmath

Dont like PvP? Dont play on a PvP server or play a PvP centric game. There is MORE PvE focused games than you can poke a stick at and only a handfull of PvP focused games.

Also, stop keyboard turning.

servers based on combat preference is an immersion breaker and the industry needs to get past such garbage so players of all types and preferences can enjoy a single game atmosphere.. one that doesn't have to be artificially split up.  That's my goal, anyways.

I honestly don't want to play with the carebears. As much as some people love to have them whine in their tell window for 45 minutes after killing them I am not one of those people. I want ot play a Full PVP game that everyone in it understands what the repercussions of full pvp actually are.

It wont really work, a ganker will gank no matter what the punishment.

What do work pretty fine is a lot less gap between noobs and leveled up players, and less impact on gear. That turns of the cowardly noob killer at least (or makes him work in groups) since those usually suck so bad that they only attack people they can´t loose against.

The good PvPers on the other hand is impossible to avoid unless you play on a PvE server.

Lineage had the idea that you could PvP flag enemy guilds by declaring war if their prince accepted on PvE servers, that worked fine there but it is really only an option to add a little open PvP on a PvE server.

Let´s face it, if someone can gank you someone will, so you either needs plenty of actual restrictions to stop it (like must flag for PvP or PvP in seperate areas of the game like GW2s the mists).

I agree too much gap between endgame players and noobs is bad for a FFA PVP game. It should be almost entirely based on skill. It's even flooded over inot the FPS genre now. High level players take entire clips to the face adn low levle players die in one shot. It has to end. I know that the average player of today is no tmuch better than a monkey pressing buttons, but I hope that we can turn the current trend and actually introduce skill back into gaming.

Originally posted by Hluill

One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

 

In Everquest 1 you could only kill people within 5 lvl of eachother if i remember correctly, worked reasonably well.

Originally posted by sanshi44

Originally posted by Hluill

One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

 

In Everquest 1 you could only kill people within 5 lvl of eachother if i remember correctly, worked reasonably well.

There were different pvp rulesets on different servers, but what made pvp terible for lowbies in EQ was the de-levelers. Who could backstab a noob for hundreds. I don't think a new player should ever be abel to defeat a vet in combat 1v1, btu I do believe that they should be able to get closer than they can now, and that 3 or 4 new players should be enough to handle a vet if they have any skill.

---

Originally posted by MacroHard

---

Originally posted by Hluill

One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.
The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.
Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.
 

---

that's why we are talking about different solutions to deter griefing.  As long as you're here, read a post or two.  Might learn something.

---

~laughs~ Do you dismiss my point so easily? One of the ways to address the issue is to lessen the disparity created by levels, skills and gear. If lowbies were able to defend themselves against griefers, then griefers wouldn't be able to function..

Originally posted by Palladin

I am not hostile toward PvPers at all ...I consider myself a PvPer. But I only fight against people who have a chance or who deserve a good smack down.

I am however hostile against anyone who goes out and hunts for players to kill who have no chance who are 10+ levels lower or will go to a newb area and gank people for hours simply because he thinks its fun. In games past I have always formed possies to hunt those people untill they get pissed and log. I guess you might call me the ganker of the gankers and i will spend days herasing people like that. :)

What would you consider "roaming"? A lot of nullsec alliances simply roam around in small to medium sized groups looking for fights or people to gank. On their way to that finding that "fair" fight they may have ganked half a dozen random people. Many of them probably at the wrong place at the wrong time or too slow/stupid to "get out of the way".

Also are you NRDS coalition? CVA? Yulai Federation?

---

Originally posted by sanshi44

---

Originally posted by Hluill

One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.
The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.
Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.
 

---

In Everquest 1 you could only kill people within 5 lvl of eachother if i remember correctly, worked reasonably well.
 

---

I remember that as well. I also remember being repeatedly "Blindsided" (my screen, UI included, going completely black) by a griefer. At first I thought my computer was malfunctioning. Scrolling through text later, I discovered that was some kind of special ability.

My memories of various PvP games include only a handful of cool fights, which I lost. These memories are dominated by getting killed at spawn and respawn points, getting killed while locked in quest dialogues or just getting owned by guys with better toons.

That being said, I did have some fun with Warhammer, in the Battlegrounds and Scenerios. But that wasn't full PvP.

Originally posted by Palladin

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by maplestone

The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

This.     If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.

accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in

The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.

Why do the numbers in the game world need to be increased? To what end?