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  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/09/12 1:28:45 PM#21
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

I have a question then...

Do you get to know people in EVE? Familiar faces? Common faces?

 In SWTOR, I love how the PvP is NOT cross-server. You get to know all the familiar faces in PvP and get to make repeated enemies, nemesis', and friends.

Smaller communities allow for repeated encounters with the same people, which is something I absolultely love and totally miss from games like UO/EQ/DAoC.

Massive communities or cross-server game design ruin this and turn community into vomit.

 Does the EVE community suffer from being "too massive" to encourage smaller community repeated encounters?

I imagine it's just like real life.  If you're in the city it's a chaotic bustle with few familiar faces, but away from those social centers you have plenty of smaller communities.

The only downside, socially, is the competitive angle.  It's a lot easier to be "best guild on the server" in a game with heavy sharding.  It's much harder on a single-shard game, but it's not like players fully comprehenad how much more meaningful it is to be the "best guild" on a single shard game.

But that's pretty minor and certainly the social upside of single-shard (being able to play with every one of your friends) far exceeds it.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

2/09/12 1:48:12 PM#22
Originally posted by nyxium

EVE Online manages ok, they even have mechanisms, time dilation, for huge numbers showing up in one planetary system for a fight now.. there are hints that their World of Darkness game will employ a similar single shard architecture, I live in hope.

A spaceship game in EMPTY space is quite different from a game with terraine and toons.

I highly doubt WoD will be a single shard, unless they want the player base to be really small.

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6149

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

2/09/12 1:55:37 PM#23

If you take a look at blizzard and what they are doing with wow (yes Iknow, everyone hates wow)  they seem to be heading in that direction of just getting rid of servers all together and just having one single server with multi-channels on it.   Wow already has "cross-server this" and "cross-server that" so the only logical conclusion would be to get rid of servers altogether.

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

2/09/12 1:58:14 PM#24
Originally posted by dimasok

The more I think about it the more I realize it has to be the right choice. 

One server for all players of all continents, one seamless world where the outcomes of the player decisions are real and tangible by all players (even if the outcome is generated colletively rather than individually).

I think that would increase the retention rate of players, would encourage developers to add larger-scale end-game content and would generally be a boon for the genre.

No more "i have 20 characters on EU server A and 10 characters on NA server B" type of scenarios and in fact all characters could be played concurrently if needed and interchanged on-the-fly (no need to log-in and out). That would be sort of a seamless integration of the "legacy" feature which would work splendidly with the whole idea of a single server and a persistent world.

Imagine being able to level up multiple characters at once and going on large sieges where everyone controls an army of their own creation fighting collectively at any given level! There are way too many great ideas that can sprout from this...

Any other takes on this?

Take the whole MMO population which it's safe to say is about 30 million (Which WoW / Maple Story carrying most the big chunks)  , Out of those 30 millions , I'll be generous for argument sake and give you 1% of the population having 40ish characters. So your up to 300K people that actually got more then 10 characters on a single MMO , honestly , the demand is far from being high enough for being a priority for any Dev to be concerned about. Even with EVE-Online you just got a handful of people with 5+ accounts all logged in at the same time. 

 The core meaning of a MMORPG back in the 90's was being able to group with people from around the world to PvP and PvE for hours non stop for levels and gear , not to have 30 characters and log them all in at once to then level them up by using a bot program.  

 Honestly , I fail to see why the hell this thread is still active , your posting something on a MMO website to enhance solo play? 

  Calfis

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/11
Posts: 350

2/09/12 2:26:35 PM#25
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

I have a question then...

Do you get to know people in EVE? Familiar faces? Common faces?

 In SWTOR, I love how the PvP is NOT cross-server. You get to know all the familiar faces in PvP and get to make repeated enemies, nemesis', and friends.

Smaller communities allow for repeated encounters with the same people, which is something I absolultely love and totally miss from games like UO/EQ/DAoC.

Massive communities or cross-server game design ruin this and turn community into vomit.

 Does the EVE community suffer from being "too massive" to encourage smaller community repeated encounters?

I imagine it's just like real life.  If you're in the city it's a chaotic bustle with few familiar faces, but away from those social centers you have plenty of smaller communities.

The only downside, socially, is the competitive angle.  It's a lot easier to be "best guild on the server" in a game with heavy sharding.  It's much harder on a single-shard game, but it's not like players fully comprehenad how much more meaningful it is to be the "best guild" on a single shard game.

But that's pretty minor and certainly the social upside of single-shard (being able to play with every one of your friends) far exceeds it.

Yesterday, I was actually killed by old corp(guild)mates I used to fly with a year ago. I didn't realize until after the battle was over and they waved (o/) to me in local chat. They told me they called me primary target first for old times sake. I only flew with them for a few months but after a year they still remember me, it was kinda nice, even tho they exploded my internet spaceship, seeing them still active and doing well(well cuz they killed me and 6 of my mates) kinda made me a little happy even tho I was a bit bummed that I lost.

There is certainly a community, much more so among the nullsec and pvp people. And even if you play EVE exclusively PVE its difficult not to hear something about the "Top" alliances/corps in the game. There are a few names people will recognize  even if they don't know too many details about why a certain group is EVE-famous. There are probably a handful of alliances that most people would consider "dangerous" pvp machines to be avoided.

 

  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

2/09/12 2:31:29 PM#26
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

I have a question then...

 

 

Do you get to know people in EVE? Familiar faces? Common faces?

 

 

In SWTOR, I love how the PvP is NOT cross-server. You get to know all the familiar faces in PvP and get to make repeated enemies, nemesis', and friends.

Smaller communities allow for repeated encounters with the same people, which is something I absolultely love and totally miss from games like UO/EQ/DAoC.

Massive communities or cross-server game design ruin this and turn community into vomit.

 

 

Does the EVE community suffer from being "too massive" to encourage smaller community repeated encounters?

Im going to put it to you like this.. As we share the same server in EvE your reputation and your good name is all you got. Just like In IRL if you behave badly.. word of mouth will spread.. If you pull off a stunt.. people will buzz about it.. And getting to know people is the Number one thing you need to do in EvE. It is all about the comunity...

You have people you hate, you have people that you fear and you have people that you work with and people that you trust with your stuff... EvE is all about comunity.. much more so then anny other game I have ever played...

Coming into a tradehubb with expencive stuff you always watch local to see who is around.. and if the wrong people are there you think twice about trying to make it safly to port...

I also have an exeample about something that happend a few months ago. I was traveling with a friend through low sec and we get jumped on a gate.. We know we are doomed but suddenly about 25 ships jump in and save us... Looking around I see alot of familiary faces. We are both swedish and well we know other sweeds in the game and lucky for us some of them were passing by and saw that we were in trubble..(lucky break as the world is Hughe)  We have been in corps with them from time to time over the years.. and we all keep in contact.. through chat channels etc... Lucky break for me and my friend but that is the sort of thing that happens in EvE..

Another example is when I got trapped inside a WH.. It closed behind me and the rest of my fleet could not get to me. Only way out was through the barrel of my gun.. but before I did so I looked around and found that there were some people living there.. After about 15m of trying to get in contact with them I found their Representatvie (diplomat) and well they were nice enough to give me a hand so I could get back into normal space.. free of charge..

Evrything fun about EvE happens when you Interact with other players...

  Zuvielify

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 170

2/09/12 2:42:12 PM#27

I'm not positive on how the mmo server technology works, but couldn't this be accomplished with phasing/instancing? 

For example, on a starter zone, in a popular MMOG,  you could have 10,000+ people at any given time. Why couldn't that be broken down in to a series of instances/phases (it would probably have to be quite a few), and each of those instances run on a different server? Isn't that what they are doing already with instancing?

Obviously, there would need to be an intelligently designed instance management system to allow players to switch between them, but at least it wouldn't be hard to find 500 other people who want to do the exact same thing as you

  WhiteLantern

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2782

2/09/12 2:45:32 PM#28

I'm all for the single-server idea, as it sounds great on paper. However, people always seem to point to Eve as the model and the reason that all games should do this.

But let me ask this: what are Eve's concurrent player numbers? I constantly see the sub number thrown out there somewhere around 333,333.3333(repeating, of course) subs, but how many of those are online at any given time?

I've seen videos of large-scale fleet battles in Eve with lag that would choke an elephant, so I'm curious if the arcitecture used by Eve is actually sufficient for this? Or are we just assuming that if the population of Eve jumped north of a million, the servers wouldn't explode.

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

2/09/12 3:10:36 PM#29
Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I'm all for the single-server idea, as it sounds great on paper. However, people always seem to point to Eve as the model and the reason that all games should do this.

But let me ask this: what are Eve's concurrent player numbers? I constantly see the sub number thrown out there somewhere around 333,333.3333(repeating, of course) subs, but how many of those are online at any given time?

I've seen videos of large-scale fleet battles in Eve with lag that would choke an elephant, so I'm curious if the arcitecture used by Eve is actually sufficient for this? Or are we just assuming that if the population of Eve jumped north of a million, the servers wouldn't explode.

about 40-49 thousand are online at the same time..prime time.  This is accounts though so the real number might be more around 25-30 thousand players online at the same time... Space is really bussy there are people everywere.. its actually to the point were I miss the old days were I could be alone in a system... Space feel a bit crowded these days..

and if the sub base jumped to a 1 million instead of the 300k we have today we migh just run the risk of exploding... CCP has pushed the number that the one server can hold over the years. And they keep setting records of how many are online at the same time.. think they manged 50k+ on many occations

Fighting LAG is to priority for CCP though they have even gone so far that people can send in that they will be gathering in large numbers for an attack.. and CCP gives them more server power.. to help them out.. The latest of this is Slowing down time called time deliation..

  Calfis

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/11
Posts: 350

2/09/12 3:11:58 PM#30
Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I'm all for the single-server idea, as it sounds great on paper. However, people always seem to point to Eve as the model and the reason that all games should do this.

But let me ask this: what are Eve's concurrent player numbers? I constantly see the sub number thrown out there somewhere around 333,333.3333(repeating, of course) subs, but how many of those are online at any given time?

I've seen videos of large-scale fleet battles in Eve with lag that would choke an elephant, so I'm curious if the arcitecture used by Eve is actually sufficient for this? Or are we just assuming that if the population of Eve jumped north of a million, the servers wouldn't explode.

On a daily basis, I've seen concurrent users as low as in the 20,000s and has high as 56,000 depending on the time of day. If subs went north of a million and concurrent users went over 100k I'm sure we would start to see problems especially in large scale fleet battles. Then again maybe fleet commanders will stop being morons by zerging a single strategic solar system with everything and the kitchen sink. Maybe they will actually spread fleets out and attack multiple target systems with a few hundred people each instead of throwing a thousand into one system.  Hard to say but the EVE learning curve and harsh universal pvp ruleset seems to keep the population at managable levels.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

2/09/12 3:21:54 PM#31
Originally posted by stayontarget

If you take a look at blizzard and what they are doing with wow (yes Iknow, everyone hates wow)  they seem to be heading in that direction of just getting rid of servers all together and just having one single server with multi-channels on it.   Wow already has "cross-server this" and "cross-server that" so the only logical conclusion would be to get rid of servers altogether.

 

The example, you are looking for, is Diablo 3. The "world" is a single lobby and anyone can play with anyone else in the world. Of course only a small group of people can play at the same time .. but that is not a problem. In fact, that is an advantage that content can be designed to fit the small group mentality. For dungeon crawl, this is probably 100x better than trying to fit 1000 people into a single dungeon.

  dimasok

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/12
Posts: 192

 
OP  2/09/12 7:13:40 PM#32
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by stayontarget

If you take a look at blizzard and what they are doing with wow (yes Iknow, everyone hates wow)  they seem to be heading in that direction of just getting rid of servers all together and just having one single server with multi-channels on it.   Wow already has "cross-server this" and "cross-server that" so the only logical conclusion would be to get rid of servers altogether.

 

The example, you are looking for, is Diablo 3. The "world" is a single lobby and anyone can play with anyone else in the world. Of course only a small group of people can play at the same time .. but that is not a problem. In fact, that is an advantage that content can be designed to fit the small group mentality. For dungeon crawl, this is probably 100x better than trying to fit 1000 people into a single dungeon.

Right but D3 has a pretty small world (Im in the beta...) and its nowhere near as expansive as the one in mmorpgs. I guess what I learned from this thread is that the only way it is feasible is through instancing or switching channels on the same server.

  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

2/09/12 7:43:18 PM#33

Based on the replies of people who actually KNOW what Eve is like (Sorry Axehilt, but imagination doesn't help) it sounds like the answer to my question is no, you don't get that small community effect, you get the WoW massive lost-in-a-million-faces effect.

The sole fact that you have to be among the top 10 most famous people / guilds / alliances to be recognized is why.

 

I prefer the smaller server approach then, without cross-server manipulation. Such as with SWTOR, where PvP is NOT cross-server and after a week of playing you begin to recognize familiar faces you frequent. Within a year of playing, you probably know EVERYONE who plays as long as you do-- or at least the ability to recognize most.

Within 2 days, I had already found 2-3 nemesis players in PvP on SWTOR. Players whoI hated to death because they always targeted me and killed me during that patch. This was really fun because I was then on able to find them and feel the Nemesis relationship as I ran towards them to enter combat and frustrate them as much as they did me. THAT is when the real challenges began to emerge as I finally found players who were also always #1 in the matches. Fighting these people really helped the team because I'd take them out of combat and we'd do our own dance-- with the loser being too wounded to pounce on all the unskilled PvPers. By the time they healed, the other was already back for more!

There is no way you will ever become well known as "The Weapons Mastercrafter" in a server so huge there are 1000 other mastercrafters-- even if it takes a year of play or super-serious grinding to become a mastercrafter. In a small server, you become famous as THE go-to guy for the best of the best weapons. You are known on the auction house as THE merchant who supplies all the newbs with endless tier 1 Rubat crystals. Or known as THE pulic drunk or nasty troll of the server.

 

IMO, I much prefer a hard-locked small server small world type of MMORPG where you are allowed, through penalty (losing stuff like Land/Housing on your server) or through cost (50,000 gold to transfer, or a formula like Level + Power * Gold) to go into a new world.

Each world being entirely unique, completely different, with its own community, continent, etc. Yet the entire game can be played in that single server and the only difference between that server and another is the different world to explore with different stuff in it. Perhaps even cross-server trading where you can harvest common Ruby Crystals on one server and then transfer those Rubies to a server where they are rare-- making a huge profit. The only downfall being that for every  [number] item you take with you, there is a gold cost.

Hmm... I actually love this idea. Entire worlds full of player-influenced cities and unique-to-server-areas and resources, where Exploration and Trade takes on a whole new meaning. Small communities that can get to know each other with every reason to stay (Home Benefits, Player Housing, Faction and other stuff that is lost upon leaving a server) but with the ability to leave and find a new community if you, for whatever reason, want to. With the ability to visit other servers without leaving your home server as well.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/09/12 11:40:24 PM#34
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

Based on the replies of people who actually KNOW what Eve is like (Sorry Axehilt, but imagination doesn't help) it sounds like the answer to my question is no, you don't get that small community effect, you get the WoW massive lost-in-a-million-faces effect.

Oh wow...welll uh...if WOW is "lost-in-a-million-faces" then that completely recalibrates things and you're going for a really small community.

To me WOW had an extremely tight-nit community and I'd see the same people around every night and chat it up with them.  Moreso amongst my guildmates, naturally.

Expecting an entire server to have that same tight-nit feel is going to be pretty rare except in ultra small games.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

2/09/12 11:48:34 PM#35
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

Based on the replies of people who actually KNOW what Eve is like (Sorry Axehilt, but imagination doesn't help) it sounds like the answer to my question is no, you don't get that small community effect, you get the WoW massive lost-in-a-million-faces effect.

The sole fact that you have to be among the top 10 most famous people / guilds / alliances to be recognized is why.

 

I prefer the smaller server approach then, without cross-server manipulation. Such as with SWTOR, where PvP is NOT cross-server and after a week of playing you begin to recognize familiar faces you frequent. Within a year of playing, you probably know EVERYONE who plays as long as you do-- or at least the ability to recognize most.

Within 2 days, I had already found 2-3 nemesis players in PvP on SWTOR. Players whoI hated to death because they always targeted me and killed me during that patch. This was really fun because I was then on able to find them and feel the Nemesis relationship as I ran towards them to enter combat and frustrate them as much as they did me. THAT is when the real challenges began to emerge as I finally found players who were also always #1 in the matches. Fighting these people really helped the team because I'd take them out of combat and we'd do our own dance-- with the loser being too wounded to pounce on all the unskilled PvPers. By the time they healed, the other was already back for more!

There is no way you will ever become well known as "The Weapons Mastercrafter" in a server so huge there are 1000 other mastercrafters-- even if it takes a year of play or super-serious grinding to become a mastercrafter. In a small server, you become famous as THE go-to guy for the best of the best weapons. You are known on the auction house as THE merchant who supplies all the newbs with endless tier 1 Rubat crystals. Or known as THE pulic drunk or nasty troll of the server.

 

IMO, I much prefer a hard-locked small server small world type of MMORPG where you are allowed, through penalty (losing stuff like Land/Housing on your server) or through cost (50,000 gold to transfer, or a formula like Level + Power * Gold) to go into a new world.

Each world being entirely unique, completely different, with its own community, continent, etc. Yet the entire game can be played in that single server and the only difference between that server and another is the different world to explore with different stuff in it. Perhaps even cross-server trading where you can harvest common Ruby Crystals on one server and then transfer those Rubies to a server where they are rare-- making a huge profit. The only downfall being that for every  [number] item you take with you, there is a gold cost.

Hmm... I actually love this idea. Entire worlds full of player-influenced cities and unique-to-server-areas and resources, where Exploration and Trade takes on a whole new meaning. Small communities that can get to know each other with every reason to stay (Home Benefits, Player Housing, Faction and other stuff that is lost upon leaving a server) but with the ability to leave and find a new community if you, for whatever reason, want to. With the ability to visit other servers without leaving your home server as well.


Haha, you basically described my game. Except the first world which would be pretty crowded. But all the secondary and tertiary colonies would be acting like that and the resource across worlds system is very very similar to what you described.

  emikochan

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 283

Welcome to my world.

2/10/12 12:57:10 AM#36

Strange, I play eve and I recognise many regulars in the systems I travel, you don't really get community in any game unless you actually look for it though. I remember when wow was starting out and the pvpers would really know eachother, you kinda have to in pvp games.

We have our rivalries and friends on the more recognisable corp/alliance level, though on an individual level you need to be fighting for some time to remember folks (in anything) .

 

On the main subject, single shard in fantastic if your servers can keep up, EVE has time dilation, but I can see it not being a very elegant solution to a ground combat game.

If eve ever ballooned in subs, It would likely force fleets to fragment, ccp are thinking about setting up sov warfare in a manner that is better for multiple fleets rather than 1 mega blob :P

  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

2/10/12 9:27:22 AM#37

To set peopel straight on EVE you have understand it takes HOURS to travel around In EVE. SO most people stick to an area and make it their home. That means you get to know the people that live in and around the systems you play in... EvE is not a game designed around the same concepts that other MMOS are. You really have to play it to undestand how it works... (forget about everything you know from the theampark MMOS.. EVE is a totaly diffrent animal) and to me it is the only game that comes close to call itself a REAL MMORPG, they even have a logical reason for why you survive after you get Killed.. as we all use clones and can send our mind through space, to inhabbit our new boddy. THis means diffrent Clones of you look diffrent.. one of my clones have a big SCAR another dose not. If the one with the Big scar on his face die he is gone...

All in all EvE has to be experinced its wastly diffrent and more complex then anything you have ever played before...

  slash_pet_attack

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/07
Posts: 69

Slaying rats, skeletons, and raid mobs since 2002.

2/10/12 6:36:44 PM#38

If all MMOs only had 1 server how would server maintenance/downtime work?  Would you really want every MMO to be down if that 1 server went down too?

  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

2/11/12 5:24:56 AM#39
Originally posted by bloodlich

If all MMOs only had 1 server how would server maintenance/downtime work?  Would you really want every MMO to be down if that 1 server went down too?

You do realize that nearly every MMORPG downs all their servers at once right?

 

WoW and SWTOR, I know, down ALL of their servers-- (almost a hundred? sure seems like a lot!) at the same time.

So really, I don't understand this post in any regard...

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