Originally posted by RajCaj

 

And all roads lead to being a combatant.  As a combatant, your defined by the gear you wear. 

For PvE...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run 5 man dungeons until you have best available gear.

Once you have best available from 5 man dungeons, you qualify for raids.  You then run Raids until you have best available gear.

 

For PvP...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run random BGs until you have the most available resilience gear.

Once you have most available resilience gear, you stand a chance at running Arenas or Rated BGs until you have best available resilience gear. 

The other things you mentioned, like professions, mount collecting, achievements, are side parlor distractions & gold sinks.  A Blacksmith in World of Warcraft is NOT the same as a Blacksmith in Ultima Online, or a crafter in Star Wars Galaxies.  Flying around, looking for a rare dragon that spawns once very few days for a mount is not the same as being able to role play a Pirate in Arch Age.

 

You're correct in freedom is relative.....but WOW is most certianly not a sandbox.

No. There is no must here. Lots of people do NOT raid. Only do 5-man and then collect pets.

Choices are choices. If we are talking about freedom, you cannot discount a choice of going to hunt for a rare mount, just because it is "different". Who says that is not more fun than clicking on a mine node many times in UO?

We are talking abotu FREEDOM here, not the quality of choices. Count the choices, there are many in WOW. I really do not care if you classify it as a sandbox (since i don't want one anyway) but it is factually wrong to say there are not a lot of choices of what to do in WOW.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

I'm sorry, but your title implies that themeparks are a problem to be solved, rather than just another play style that doesn't meet your approval.  I rather like themeparks and really find your attitude arrogant and just plain rude.  I also happen to like sandboxes, if to a lesser extent, but you hardcore sandbox purists embarrass me.

This ^^^^

I like my game has content and choices ... a themepark one fits perfectly and that is why i am paying for one. I vote with my wallet and i invite everyone to do the same. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RajCaj

 

And all roads lead to being a combatant.  As a combatant, your defined by the gear you wear. 

For PvE...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run 5 man dungeons until you have best available gear.

Once you have best available from 5 man dungeons, you qualify for raids.  You then run Raids until you have best available gear.

 

For PvP...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run random BGs until you have the most available resilience gear.

Once you have most available resilience gear, you stand a chance at running Arenas or Rated BGs until you have best available resilience gear. 

The other things you mentioned, like professions, mount collecting, achievements, are side parlor distractions & gold sinks.  A Blacksmith in World of Warcraft is NOT the same as a Blacksmith in Ultima Online, or a crafter in Star Wars Galaxies.  Flying around, looking for a rare dragon that spawns once very few days for a mount is not the same as being able to role play a Pirate in Arch Age.

 

You're correct in freedom is relative.....but WOW is most certianly not a sandbox.

 

No. There is no must here. Lots of people do NOT raid. Only do 5-man and then collect pets.

Choices are choices. If we are talking about freedom, you cannot discount a choice of going to hunt for a rare mount, just because it is "different". Who says that is not more fun than clicking on a mine node many times in UO?

We are talking abotu FREEDOM here, not the quality of choices. Count the choices, there are many in WOW. I really do not care if you classify it as a sandbox (since i don't want one anyway) but it is factually wrong to say there are not a lot of choices of what to do in WOW.

 

 

Actually, every game so far that focuses on raiding has shown that the majoirty of their player bases don't even participate in it.  Only 20 to 30 percent seem to enjoy this type of content, yet it still dominates the the end game content market.  I think the reason is due to laziness of the developers and the high pitched whine of the raider community.

Whether themepark or sandbox, it's high time we were given a lot more options for end game content.

...or stop this fast leveling to endgame. Ah, so you pulled the dev's are lazy card. So lazy, they take the time to make raiding content that you don't want.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RajCaj

 

And all roads lead to being a combatant.  As a combatant, your defined by the gear you wear. 

For PvE...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run 5 man dungeons until you have best available gear.

Once you have best available from 5 man dungeons, you qualify for raids.  You then run Raids until you have best available gear.

 

For PvP...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run random BGs until you have the most available resilience gear.

Once you have most available resilience gear, you stand a chance at running Arenas or Rated BGs until you have best available resilience gear. 

The other things you mentioned, like professions, mount collecting, achievements, are side parlor distractions & gold sinks.  A Blacksmith in World of Warcraft is NOT the same as a Blacksmith in Ultima Online, or a crafter in Star Wars Galaxies.  Flying around, looking for a rare dragon that spawns once very few days for a mount is not the same as being able to role play a Pirate in Arch Age.

 

You're correct in freedom is relative.....but WOW is most certianly not a sandbox.

 

No. There is no must here. Lots of people do NOT raid. Only do 5-man and then collect pets.

Choices are choices. If we are talking about freedom, you cannot discount a choice of going to hunt for a rare mount, just because it is "different". Who says that is not more fun than clicking on a mine node many times in UO?

We are talking abotu FREEDOM here, not the quality of choices. Count the choices, there are many in WOW. I really do not care if you classify it as a sandbox (since i don't want one anyway) but it is factually wrong to say there are not a lot of choices of what to do in WOW.

 

 

Actually, every game so far that focuses on raiding has shown that the majoirty of their player bases don't even participate in it.  Only 20 to 30 percent seem to enjoy this type of content, yet it still dominates the the end game content market.  I think the reason is due to laziness of the developers and the high pitched whine of the raider community.

 

Whether themepark or sandbox, it's high time we were given a lot more options for end game content.

It dominates the endgame content market for themepark type MMORPGs because the model dictates that the DEVELOPERS generate "stuff" for the players to do.

Because themepark MMORPGs are developed for mass audiences, you have to account for both the casual audience that putters along doing quests & running small potato group content......and account for the hardcore team oriented players.

The reason you see so much focus put on the raid scene is because this 20-30% of the playerbase consume the content at a MUCH faster rate than the average casual player.  If the developers are not constantly releasing major raid content every 6 months......the players get board and leave.

As for your last statement....I couldn't agree more.  But I would say that most MMO gamers that are looking for a themepark type experiene are just fine with endgame being limited to combat roles.  I don't think things like player housing, guild city building, gardens, politicial systems, or chicken fighting (all examples of sandbox endgame options) are compelling to casual MMO gamers.

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Wow, just wow.

These are pretty well-known and self-evident traits and definitions of sandboxes vs. themeparks.  What's so "wow" about it?

There seems to be a lot of wrangling over the small details of the definitions (mostly symantics)....but the two MMO philosophys are very different and clear to see by anyone that is objective enough to give a fair evaluation.

 

With that said, I agree with your opinion on how the different development models effect the workload of the developer.

 

In theory, Sandbox developers are only charged with creating an open world (which requires MUCH less planning logistics since you aren't trying to steer players into specific areas), and creating some basic tools or systems that the players use to create their own content.  Players beat the tool up.....use it, try to exploit it....and developer makes some tweaks when behavior or tools start acting in a way that wasn't intended.

 

Themepark developers are charged with creating a more guided progression through a world that requires some careful planning to ensure that players are in the right zones at the right times (Several factors to consider are how much XP is to be had in any given area, what gear or power ups are available in any given area, etc.)  The Quests are designed to guide a player through a particluar zone or dungeon.  Dungeon encounters are designed and controled in a way that has *just* the right amount of difficulty for a group to progress.  Players chew up the content and stand waiting for more.  Developers are back on the horse immediately after releasing a content update so that players aren't left waiting too long before they have more quests & dungeons to run.

 

While sandbox development may be more difficult, being as you are having to take a more reactionary approach to development to account for the unpredictability of how players will interact with the tool.  Themepark development seems to be a MUCH bigger & expensive effort to make sure that everything is coordinated just so that players are doing the right things at the right times.

Well sure, but I'd argue themepark devs have to do just as much planning and that the real difference isn't in planning but in content implementation.

It's arguably a little easier to plan out content when you know the player will be level 10-20 in a zone so you can create content custom-tailored to that level range.  Design constraints make it both easier to plan and easier to design compelling content for players.  Sandboxes usually lack most of those constraints, which could possibly cause a sandbox dev to spend more time planning than a themepark one.

But by the time content implementation rolls around, sandbox devs "take the day off" as I put it while themepark devs grind endlessly on it from pre-launch onward.

Originally posted by mmoguy43

...or stop this fast leveling to endgame. Ah, so you pulled the dev's are lazy card. So lazy, they take the time to make raiding content that you don't want.

Yes, it is damn lazy, when we pay money for our subscriptions too, but aren't being represented in end game content.  It goes beyond lazy and into the fullblown stupid business practice arena.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by mmoguy43

...or stop this fast leveling to endgame. Ah, so you pulled the dev's are lazy card. So lazy, they take the time to make raiding content that you don't want.

Yes, it is damn lazy, when we pay money for our subscriptions too, but aren't being represented in end game content.  It goes beyond lazy and into the fullblown stupid business practice arena.

Have you leveled several characters to level 85? Otherwise you aren't really in the endgame.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by mmoguy43

...or stop this fast leveling to endgame. Ah, so you pulled the dev's are lazy card. So lazy, they take the time to make raiding content that you don't want.

Yes, it is damn lazy, when we pay money for our subscriptions too, but aren't being represented in end game content.  It goes beyond lazy and into the fullblown stupid business practice arena.

I think that largely comes down to understanding what your subscription pays for.  The $15 per month doesn't gaurentee a player anything but access to the servers, and maybe an OPPORTUNITY to experience the content the game has to offer.

You as a player determine whether or not you have enough time & resources to get the things you want in the game....and ultimately if it warrants the $15 a month.

Blizzard (and developers for any other MMO that try to appeal to the MASS audience) have to deal with different groups of customers within one game.

As mentioned before, about 20% of the player population are of the hardcore types that dedicate 3-4 nights a week to raiding.  They put in 20+ hours a week, grind to make sure they have all the consumables and gear needed to raid.  This group of WOWs overall playerbase consume content MUCH faster than the other 80% of the playerbase....and create a HUGE demand of the developers time & resources.

The other 80% of the players are genearally considered casual players...that might put in 5-10 hours a week (using some very unscientific & rough estimates here) and move through medium - low level content at a much slower pace.  By the time a top raiding guild has finished all the new raid content...most folks are just getting to heroic 5-mans.

So it's actually not lazy...just a smart allocation of content based on the burn rate of that group of players.  If Blizzard dedicated as much time on low-medium level content.....the hardcore guilds would be done with bran new expansions in less than a month.  THAT is bad business.

IF your argument is about offering a wider variety of things to do at Endgame, instead of just Raiding.....well thats a whole other conversation all together.  In order to offer a more "open" endgame...you start to challenge the very fiber of themepark gaming.

Originally posted by RajCaj

I think that largely comes down to understanding what your subscription pays for.  The $15 per month doesn't gaurentee a player anything but access to the servers, and maybe an OPPORTUNITY to experience the content the game has to offer.

 

You as a player determine whether or not you have enough time & resources to get the things you want in the game....and ultimately if it warrants the $15 a month.

 

Blizzard (and developers for any other MMO that try to appeal to the MASS audience) have to deal with different groups of customers within one game.

As mentioned before, about 20% of the player population are of the hardcore types that dedicate 3-4 nights a week to raiding.  They put in 20+ hours a week, grind to make sure they have all the consumables and gear needed to raid.  This group of WOWs overall playerbase consume content MUCH faster than the other 80% of the playerbase....and create a HUGE demand of the developers time & resources.

 

The other 80% of the players are genearally considered casual players...that might put in 5-10 hours a week (using some very unscientific & rough estimates here) and move through medium - low level content at a much slower pace.  By the time a top raiding guild has finished all the new raid content...most folks are just getting to heroic 5-mans.

 

So it's actually not lazy...just a smart allocation of content based on the burn rate of that group of players.  If Blizzard dedicated as much time on low-medium level content.....the hardcore guilds would be done with bran new expansions in less than a month.  THAT is bad business.

 

IF your argument is about offering a wider variety of things to do at Endgame, instead of just Raiding.....well thats a whole other conversation all together.  In order to offer a more "open" endgame...you start to challenge the very fiber of themepark gaming.

While there is nothing wrong per se with your post, it kinda reads like you have fallen asleep for 3 years and just woke up yesterday. :)

Its not 2008, "server first" guilds do not raid 3-4 days per week, you dont grind consumables for hours, heroic 5mans are a pushover, there is no need to do past content, first few bosses of a tier are usually very easy and designed to drop a large variety of items so that players can get geared, not even mentioning tokens...

I think the current situation is why threads like "reinvent endgame" are common, far too many people have no other choice than raid, because everything else is trivial, much more than those 20% back in TBC.

When in the past, you would be somewhat behind even playing 3+ hours a day, a hardcore would put much more effort in, nowadays even 2-3 hours a day can actually make you a hardcore, and i am not sure it is quite pleasant for many people.

Guild drama class drama raid composition drama, everyone jammed in one tier, nothing to do but past content achievments...

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

Still, I guess I still feel like a gameplay-heavy sandbox MMO could be successful (as opposed to the world-simulation-heavy sandboxes we've seen so far, which tend to die off due to the moment-to-moment gameplay being really boring.)

somebody who worships WoW,  thinks actually having to think on your feet and actually USE YOUR FEET at all is "boring".  that's rich.  "defense mechanism" pops into mind.

is it BECAUSE of your no skill gaming that you're able to alt tab and non-stop spam these forums while your alternate ego is  auto-attacking in the background?   some people make sandwiches, but you you talk about how fun your backgrounded game is?   sounds like you're having a real blast.   i don't know that at any given time of the day that i read these forums that a post from you doesn't pop up in the last few minutes.  with your religious anti-MMO anti-virtual-world gaming agendas.

must be an extremely entertaining life!

Heh , go to your local hardware store and buy 4 planks of 4 by 6 with 10 bags of sand and some 4 inch screws.  Screw the planks togheter to get a box shape , then add the sand into your wooden box , now jump into your brand new sandbox :P

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

Still, I guess I still feel like a gameplay-heavy sandbox MMO could be successful (as opposed to the world-simulation-heavy sandboxes we've seen so far, which tend to die off due to the moment-to-moment gameplay being really boring.)

 

somebody who worships WoW,  thinks actually having to think on your feet and actually USE YOUR FEET at all is "boring".  that's rich.  "defense mechanism" pops into mind.

is it BECAUSE of your no skill gaming that you're able to alt tab and non-stop spam these forums while your alternate ego is  auto-attacking in the background?   some people make sandwiches, but you you talk about how fun your backgrounded game is?   sounds like you're having a real blast.   i don't know that at any given time of the day that i read these forums that a post from you doesn't pop up in the last few minutes.  with your religious anti-MMO anti-virtual-world gaming agendas.

must be an extremely entertaining life!

Axehilt is right, you know. It is the single greatest weakness of MMOs that try to simulate virtual world religiously. Their moment -to-moment gameplay is boring and players lose interest. There's too much jumping through hoops and uninteresting activities between the actual fun activities. To some those few peaks of joy are worth it, but to most they're not - not worth enduring all the boredom inbetween.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

Still, I guess I still feel like a gameplay-heavy sandbox MMO could be successful (as opposed to the world-simulation-heavy sandboxes we've seen so far, which tend to die off due to the moment-to-moment gameplay being really boring.)

 

somebody who worships WoW,  thinks actually having to think on your feet and actually USE YOUR FEET at all is "boring".  that's rich.  "defense mechanism" pops into mind.

is it BECAUSE of your no skill gaming that you're able to alt tab and non-stop spam these forums while your alternate ego is  auto-attacking in the background?   some people make sandwiches, but you you talk about how fun your backgrounded game is?   sounds like you're having a real blast.   i don't know that at any given time of the day that i read these forums that a post from you doesn't pop up in the last few minutes.  with your religious anti-MMO anti-virtual-world gaming agendas.

must be an extremely entertaining life!

Axehilt is right, you know. It is the single greatest weakness of MMOs that try to simulate virtual world religiously. Their moment -to-moment gameplay is boring and players lose interest. There's too much jumping through hoops and uninteresting activities between the actual fun activities. To some those few peaks of joy are worth it, but to most they're not - not worth enduring all the boredom inbetween.

What is "moment-to-moment gameplay" ? Like having to endure a raid to have quest tokens to reach the fun part of exchanging the tokens for experience or extra skills which upgrade your character? :)

Anyways, where do you (or Axehilt) get the idea that you know what "fun activities" are for everyone? 

Just saying.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Its not 2008, "server first" guilds do not raid 3-4 days per week, you dont grind consumables for hours, heroic 5mans are a pushover, there is no need to do past content, first few bosses of a tier are usually very easy and designed to drop a large variety of items so that players can get geared, not even mentioning tokens...

No need to do past content? That is only views of someone who wants nothing but power progression. There are lots of reasons to do past content: mount, pet, transmor gear.

My WOW server has frequent PUG groups going for raids back in vanilla, BC & WOTLK to get those stuff.

I ran 5-man with my kid doing the same. The cool thing about it .. is that you can go with a few people and don't need a full 10 or 25 man raid group to do old content.

This is a GAME. There is "need" to do anything .. but the OPTION is there. It is certainly fun to try to SOLO old raids, or do it with 2-3 friends.

Originally posted by RajCaj

As mentioned before, about 20% of the player population are of the hardcore types that dedicate 3-4 nights a week to raiding.  They put in 20+ hours a week, grind to make sure they have all the consumables and gear needed to raid.  This group of WOWs overall playerbase consume content MUCH faster than the other 80% of the playerbase....and create a HUGE demand of the developers time & resources.

Where did you get the 20% number? It is well known that only 2% have done Sunwell back when it was the hardest raid dungeon. The completion of the normal newest DS raid is 4%.

The LFR raids .. which makes raid a lot easier .. has a completion raid of 35%. This is raid for the casual.

I highly doubt there are 20% of hardcore types. Do you actually have statistics? The statistics i have seen does NOT back up this 20% number.

Originally posted by Zekiah

The only sure method of getting good sandbox games back is to stop paying for crappy themeparks. 

As a customer base, we can't keep supporting these companies and their subpar games with our cash and expect changes. If developers can continue to spend a minimal amount of investment on developing for quick box sales, why would they bother with anything more?

Don't want crap? Stop paying for crap. 

That's what I did and if more people would jump onboard instead of throwing cash around at the latest over-hyped half-a** project like crazed crack junkies, perhaps things will change.

Bethesda? Perhaps, but don't hold your breath. They'll most likely take the quick and easy way out too, fast box sales.

Unfortunately a fool and there money etc. same goes for things like drm.

In game terms it seems like companies now think that people are going to buy there game anyway so why bother making it good coughbiowarecough.  Don't see it changing anytime soon.

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Zekiah

The only sure method of getting good sandbox games back is to stop paying for crappy themeparks. 

As a customer base, we can't keep supporting these companies and their subpar games with our cash and expect changes. If developers can continue to spend a minimal amount of investment on developing for quick box sales, why would they bother with anything more?

Don't want crap? Stop paying for crap. 

That's what I did and if more people would jump onboard instead of throwing cash around at the latest over-hyped half-a** project like crazed crack junkies, perhaps things will change.

Bethesda? Perhaps, but don't hold your breath. They'll most likely take the quick and easy way out too, fast box sales.

 companies now think that people are going to buy there game anyway 

Bingo. Buncha game junkies twitchin' fer tha next fix. It's sad and pathetic and we're getting everything we deserve.

STOP THE MADNESS!

Originally posted by Zekiah

 

Bingo. Buncha game junkies twitchin' fer tha next fix. It's sad and pathetic and we're getting everything we deserve.

STOP THE MADNESS!

What madness?

I am having fun with my gaming. Why should i stop just because you do not like it?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Zekiah

 

Bingo. Buncha game junkies twitchin' fer tha next fix. It's sad and pathetic and we're getting everything we deserve.

STOP THE MADNESS!

What madness?

I am having fun with my gaming. Why should i stop just because you do not like it?

 

Good for you, but I wasn't speaking to you.