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Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn Instead of saying that, wouldn't it be more helpful to post a list ? |
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2/09/12 7:55:38 AM#62
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn Every job is not for everyone. PS: I'm a Graphics Designer |
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2/09/12 8:03:11 AM#63
Originally posted by zakiyawow Absolutely. That also would require a serious investment of my time and effort if I were to do it. While I do not like this saying, hate people who say it, and it typically is used inappropriately when the answer would only take a few seconds or minutes...in this situation it would take me hours to provide what I would feel is an accurate, up to date amount of information. "Have you ever heard of Google?"
It's not that the list was bad, but that some of those in the list are god-awful choices and jokes among even newbie developers. The only one I would even place in my own list would be Hero Engine. For me to come up with a list that is greater than a handful of engines or middleware would take too much of my time, and I truly don't care that much. Honestly, if he wants to get serious about it, my NOT helping is beneficial. Only those committed enough to "google it" themselves, without help from mmorpg.com forums (TROLOLOLOLOL...) will ever have even a small chance of succeeding.
I honestly would suggest NOT using an engine, unless Hero Engine happens to be a great choice for you. There ARE however plenty of wonderful frameworks or server middleware (Such as PHOTON) which could serve as a solution for the MMO part of the RPG. These solutions are often FREE up to 25/50/100 simultaneous users. After these numbers, there is a sliding scale of payment per license. Honestly though, if you get above 25/50/100 then you can easily afford them. |
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2/09/12 8:08:12 AM#64
Then again alot of the big name MMOs out and coming out are using existing FPS engines, such as Crytek, Unreal, Hero (RPG one). Such as SWTOR, they bought Hero before it was complete, undocumented, uncommented, unoptimized and not for sale hahah. They just got some unfinished source code and adapted it, hence why SWTOR is..ahem...limited in ways, just feels like a damn mod to me lol. But i think buying an engine license at some level then modding it is so much easier than somehow making one from scratch, i personally wouldn't be able to get my head around the scope of that.
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2/09/12 8:23:19 AM#65
Originally posted by Vegetto The problem with engines like Cryengine or Unreal is that they are not natively made to run an MMO environment. There is significant work in "modding" (i would even say -rewriting-) parts of the engine to handle it. If you do not have the technical know-how you will fail. People heavily underestimate the work that goes into that. The solutions that these companies come up with are of course proprietary and not open source, so you will not even be able to benefit from their experience, or learn from their setup.
The problem usually is that most MMORPG frameworks do not sport very good graphics engines, and vice versa, good graphics engines do not sport a good MMORPG framework. Especially UDK and unreal 3 scales horribly with open worlds out of the box, its primarily an FPS engine. It has severe texture-streaming issues on large maps/zones. Source for example can be used, but only with a lot of instancing (Vindictus). Thats why most big companies either code their own engine or have to heavily mod an existing engine which you need significant knowledge of, a student or amateur should probably not touch it. |
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2/09/12 8:24:50 AM#66
Originally posted by Vegetto Well, I think that if someone wants to make a 3D game like WoW or SWTOR or any MMORPG really, they should probably be experienced enough to get their head around the scope of creating an engine (it's much simpler than you'd think) than to try to make one with an engine. Actually, an engine isn't really all that much. Depending on the engine of course, but most of literally just ways to handle the very basic things such as handling graphics and keyboard/mouse input. Regular code handles those exact same things, and frameworks help a lot.
IMO, engines are worse because they LIMIT you, often in severe ways. Other times an engine may do a lot of what you want, but you still have to change it to fit your needs, and you may not be able to. Engines (like Unity) are also horrible with performance and have all sorts of bugs which you cannot fix without the source code-- and even then why are you fixing it if you payed for it? Finally, you have to deal with working with an engine you didn't create, which means you are at the mercy of other people's code, other people's mistakes, other people's style. Maybe it's just me (and everyone else, lol) but engines are mostly for newbies or people who want to prototype really fast. Engines such as Unity3D are great...for newbies. Any real developer laughs at Unity engine and facepalms at the discussion of it. It really depends on the scope of your project. An engine like Unity or Torque is great for something small. REAL game engines cost A LOT of money. The reason Unity/Torque are so cheap is because they're game engines tailored to the non-programmer or casual developer. This is why they are a joke. Multiverse isn't a joke, but it is a failure. It isn't as popular as they had hoped, and I've heard not-so-good-things about working with it. RealmCrafter is a joke though.
Once you get seriously into it you see that game engines like Unity are just basic engines with tons of shiny bells and whistles, and realize you don't need 99% of that crap. Making an engine isn't too hard with the powerful frameworks at your disposal. Engines aren't that complex when you don't use the majority of their features. They take a lot to build and a huge team to maintain because of the numerous features within each engine because that one engine has to cater to all sorts of games and developers.
It's pretty simple. In all honesty it's all said very well in the single line, "Game engines [like Unity] are for newbs." Something like the Hero Engine is an engine that is typically very, very expensive, so that's quite different. Hence why it is on my list. |
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2/09/12 8:27:43 AM#67
Originally posted by AdamTM Which is why I've heard wonders about Hero Engine, which is surprisingly free now :O I have to give props to the Hero Engine people. Their move to make it free (ish) is phenominal and a huge step forward in the gaming industry. Unfortunately for a 2D MMORPG (what I'm making) the developers of Hero Engine told me I'm better off slitting my wrists than trying to make a 2D MMORPG with their engine. (Just kidding; they said it would be significantly easier to just go pure 2D and code it myself than to alter their code and pay for their source) |
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2/09/12 8:31:55 AM#68
I am making my own engine for my game. I don't think most current engines can support all of the features I need. Some may support some but not others and another may support others but not sum but, that means none of them will work. |
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2/09/12 8:33:52 AM#69
Originally posted by Cuathon Really, it seems the only thing game engines DO support are 3D graphics (if that...lol...since they're sometimes so problematic or buggy with certain formats). Most game engines you have to still do 99.99% of the work anyway, so I no longer see the appeal of using someone else's engine over coding your own. |
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2/09/12 8:36:00 AM#70
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn This all depends on how flexible Hero is. In the sense of "how easy can it be modded without being a programmer with 10 years experience". I've seen what game design schools offer in programming classes, and what private schools offer in their programming classes, and those are not sufficient to scratch the surface of an engine like Hero. If Hero out of the box is essentially "WoW Maker 2000" this gives us nothing. If its flexible enough to support different playstyles than tab-target for example or world-interaction with physics then yes we can talk about it being a step forward. From your last line i expect the engine to be rather inflexible.
PS: Did you try Eclipse? |
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2/09/12 8:36:34 AM#71
Hmm i see what you mean, but if Big World Tech does, like it says, offer the source with it in Python, i would hope it's very well commented. To me, in theory, it would seem easier to cut and add what i wanted than code it all from scratch. i.e. mod-test-mod-test,etc. Had a look at Hero, i think Hero Cloud is the MMO solution, but it is odd how it suggests it is free, but i just can't see that being the case, they actually ask for you to give them a week to 'setup your world and servers'. Eh? For free? But then they say this: Licensing fee: Free, including access for up to 99 developers. Once (or if) your game is published and begins making money, we keep 30% of revenue. Interesting... Edit: Oh and now i have got the idea in my head, so i gotta try it now and i get obsessive until i get the end product...great lol :). Good job i get all the software for free due to old Uni being affiliate with Autodesk and such heh.
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2/09/12 9:06:14 AM#72
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn Hero Engine seem awesome. doesnt SWTOR run off it? Rift runs Gamebyro. But kinda worried about that. |
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2/09/12 9:13:09 AM#73
Originally posted by zakiyawow yeah i am interested in some of the free engines. hero takes 3 days to start. I been clearing up my PC for it. just deleted World of Warcraft to make some room. Hope I dont have to delete GW1 next and Rift. |
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2/09/12 9:13:45 AM#74
Wow @ Hero Engine is all i can say after looking through the features: Not the engine itself, but the development tools. That's fecking crazy, so slick. How customizable is it though is the question.
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2/09/12 9:16:17 AM#75
Originally posted by Vegetto whats your game idea? |
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2/09/12 9:22:03 AM#76
Nah i'm not that naive, i'm going to see what i can develop ad hoc with those tools. And you know whats funnier, half of the features the engine has SWTOR doesn't, as they bought the code unfinished. Day/Night cycle, character creation with morphing features, 'not shit' AI pathfinding. Thumbs up EA, dumbasses :)
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2/09/12 9:23:40 AM#77
Originally posted by Vegetto
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2/09/12 9:28:58 AM#78
Yeh i kinda thought that. But i think you could still add the depth we want, would be interesting to see just what you could do (if at all) with a crafting mechanic. I think i need to read the actual documentation first, but i'm going to order HeroCloud now and setup the dev space. What kinda puts me off is this bit: SUBMIT THE INFORMATION BELOW WAIT 24 TO 48 HOURS FOR YOUR SERVER TO COME ONLINE MAKE YOUR GAME USING THE HEROENGINE BECOME RICH AND FAMOUS Don't patronise me you tossers lol.
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2/09/12 9:33:00 AM#79
Originally posted by Vegetto oh come on,,, tell us |
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2/09/12 9:34:11 AM#80
Originally posted by AdamTM Eclipse = Ewwww????
From what I saw anyway. I deal in high resolution 2D graphics and Eclipse requires a maximum of a ridiculous like.... 64x64 sprites? Something laughable, and they have to fit inside that resolution so they can't be varying frame size variations. I didn't look too much into it though, and heard it was open source. |
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