Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by maplestone

If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.

Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.

I never claimed it was easy.  But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.

THAT is a piece of bad, borderline on absurb, advice.

A modern video game, even an indie one, needs a team (programming, art, graphics, deisgn ..) and lots of technical know-how. Assuming a random player would be anything close to have the skill set to make a full featured game, abate a good one, is just totally silly.

 

The alternative being to shout on forums demanding someone else do all the work for you?  What I'm asking is for people like the original poster to stop for a moment and really analyze what they are asking for.  

Do I believe that the OP would actually succeed in achieving his dream game by following my advice?  No.  But I think the journey, however short, would be helpful in gaining some appreciation of the scale of what is being asked for.  And every once in a blue moon, people prove me wrong and do the impossible.

I come from the pencil-and-paper era, where if you didn't like a rulebook, you simply sat down, rolled up your sleeves and wrote one of your own.  We MMO gamers have become too passive for my tastes: all consumption, no production.  We are not entitled to anything but what we make for ourselves.  The scale of an MMO is enormous - the number of different moving parts that all need be functional and polished is enormous.  Of course it's far, far more than a single individual can achieve.  But the same is true of Linux, of wikipedia, of any number of giant collaborative projects that exist out there that would be absurd to attempt if you just start by looking at the finished product.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by AdamTM

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try.  Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.

( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )

Partially right.

But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread. 

Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.

We also need to remember that Notch (with <3) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.

Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.

Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.

 

There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.

 

I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.

Yes, but since the OP left UO because of the aging graphics, i didn't think thats relevant at all. I'm talking, as always, in the context of the thread.

What people here usually say is that they do not want MUDs (as i stated before, thats an obtainable goal) but they want a good looking sandbox/game with modern graphics and gameplay. 

Then coming in and saying "just make it yourself" is completely silly.

I was agreeing with you and offering my own experience to back it up.

Sorry, i was coming from that "inclusion thread" rather loaded and defensive.

Game design need to be rich? Hmm...

I spent several years learning all the different aspects of game design, as i didn't know what career i wanted to go into from Uni within IT/Design and i also wanted to know how things were done.

With todays open source engines you can use, MMO engines even (for free i have found), the rest is just something someone can do if they are willing to spend the years into it.

Cost? F' all. I can do my own models, animation, code, textures, have servers, level design, lighting, sound. All that remains is the net code, which to be honest i think i could pick up in time, as i manage networks, servers, code and everything else inbetween.

Has anyone seen the FREE engines available? Do you know how EASY it is to make a game mod like counter-strike was made? Well the open source engines available now offer you just that, you just need to put the time in learning how everything works and do it yourself.

I started in level design in 90's, then you want to customise all the models, their scripts, the textures, the animation, the UI and maybe it's just me, but that's just what i did.

I was thinking today funnily enough about starting my own project to keep myself occupied and setting up a small design/CAD business on side of my full-time job, but maybe the creativity involved in TRYING to make a game from the ground up is much more appealing.

What people don't realise is, the big games that use other peoples engines, it's like making a car without having to design the engine, rest is tweaking, aesthetics, performance, design.

But i am interested to hear what would actually cost me money in the above? Engine free, art assets i make, coding i do (note: The bulk is already in the engine, rest is your unique assets and scripts), servers aren't an issue, databases, project management, designing the website even.

I'm not being sarcastic, i am genuinely unsure why people are saying it costs alot of money to make a small indie online game...unless..

You haven't managed to learn how to do things yourself. Several years of manuals, tutorials, videos, college, Uni, practice, practice... time > money in this case. I would need someone as an extra pair of hands to speed it up and to write more complex code and that's about it. I'll get flamed by someone who will claim to be an AAA developer, but i am confused about the theory of high cost? Note: Not an AAA game, a basic MMO on an existing engine.

Originally posted by Vegetto

Game design need to be rich? Hmm...

I spent several years learning all the different aspects of game design, as i didn't know what career i wanted to go into from Uni within IT/Design and i also wanted to know how things were done.

With todays open source engines you can use, MMO engines even (for free i have found), the rest is just something someone can do if they are willing to spend the years into it.

Cost? F' all. I can do my own models, animation, code, textures, have servers, level design, lighting, sound. All that remains is the net code, which to be honest i think i could pick up in time, as i manage networks, servers, code and everything else inbetween.

Has anyone seen the FREE engines available? Do you know how EASY it is to make a game mod like counter-strike was made? Well the open source engines available now offer you just that, you just need to put the time in learning how everything works and do it yourself.

I started in level design in 90's, then you want to customise all the models, their scripts, the textures, the animation, the UI and maybe it's just me, but that's just what i did.

I was thinking today funnily enough about starting my own project to keep myself occupied and setting up a small design/CAD business on side of my full-time job, but maybe the creativity involved in TRYING to make a game from the ground up is much more appealing.

What people don't realise is, the big games that use other peoples engines, it's like making a car without having to design the engine, rest is tweaking, aesthetics, performance, design.

But i am interested to hear what would actually cost me money in the above? Engine free, art assets i make, coding i do (note: The bulk is already in the engine, rest is your unique assets and scripts), servers aren't an issue, databases, project management, designing the website even.

I'm not being sarcastic, i am genuinely unsure why people are saying it costs alot of money to make a small indie online game...unless..

You haven't managed to learn how to do things yourself. Several years of manuals, tutorials, videos, college, Uni, practice, practice... time > money in this case. I would need someone as an extra pair of hands to speed it up and to write more complex code and that's about it. I'll get flamed by someone who will claim to be an AAA developer, but i would i am confused about the theory of high cost?

Time. It will cost you Time.

Time a regular functioning human with no fallback does not have.

Or, respectively, the game would come out in 10 years.

Take this game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overgrowth

I've been following the game since 2008. Its 2012 and the current build is ALPHA 166.

There are 4 people working on it with weekly updates (http://www.youtube.com/user/WolfireGames)

And its -STILL- alpha.

4 people. 4 years. Alpha.

You are not able to do everything yourself. Period. If you do, its going to look shit and play shit.

Because you will make mistakes in modeling that an experienced game-modeler wouldn't make, and you would optimize textures wrong because you don't know how.

You can't be an expert in everything.

Not

Fucking

Possible

What you would release is complete garbage with garbage code that would probably go for 5 dollars on Gamersgate, out of pitty.

But certainly not an MMO that people will want to play.

Originally posted by RabbiFang

So, to my point. I seem to spend far, far more time waiting for the next MMO to come along and disappoint me than I do actually playing MMO games. That's sad, in it self, and says a hell of a lot for an industry which could be so much more than it is right now. Currently, I'm eagerly awaiting Diablo III, Archeage and Planetside 2, and I have a close eye on Tera and TSW. Which of those games will let me down? All of them? three of them? Who knows, but I'm almost certain we'll all be  back here in twelve months time, waiting. 

Simple

1) Diablo is not a MMORPG, so it will be highly entertaining providing you do not expect a MMO.

I am so excited I paid 1 year WoW subscription to get it free as soon as it's released.

2) Planetside 2 is not a MMO either, not in the sense me and you perceive a MMORPG should be.

Yet I am excited about this one too, because I am craving to play a good FPS online (I loved Global Agenda but it feels too much like a Multiplayer game, PS2 should be a little bit more sophisticated )

3) Tera is Aion Re-loaded or Lineage 2 Re-re-loaded, yes it has few twist, but it's the same Korean bullshit.

4) TSW I have to be honest, I do not understand the concept so I am not particularly excited, but I keep an open door for it since it looks something different.

3) Archeage is what everyone who played MMORPGs prior WoW is waiting for.

To me could be the biggest surprise in the MMO industry since WoW or the biggest disappointment, since I am  so excited about

But on paper Archeage looks like the future of MMORPG (Themepark + Sandbox)

Another one I am looking for is GW2, although it's not exactly a game which promises too much freedom, it looks different enough to be fun, as long is not as instanced as the original GW

---

Originally posted by AdamTM

---

Originally posted by Vegetto
Game design need to be rich? Hmm...
I spent several years learning all the different aspects of game design, as i didn't know what career i wanted to go into from Uni within IT/Design and i also wanted to know how things were done.
With todays open source engines you can use, MMO engines even (for free i have found), the rest is just something someone can do if they are willing to spend the years into it.
Cost? F' all. I can do my own models, animation, code, textures, have servers, level design, lighting, sound. All that remains is the net code, which to be honest i think i could pick up in time, as i manage networks, servers, code and everything else inbetween.
Has anyone seen the FREE engines available? Do you know how EASY it is to make a game mod like counter-strike was made? Well the open source engines available now offer you just that, you just need to put the time in learning how everything works and do it yourself.
I started in level design in 90's, then you want to customise all the models, their scripts, the textures, the animation, the UI and maybe it's just me, but that's just what i did.
I was thinking today funnily enough about starting my own project to keep myself occupied and setting up a small design/CAD business on side of my full-time job, but maybe the creativity involved in TRYING to make a game from the ground up is much more appealing.
What people don't realise is, the big games that use other peoples engines, it's like making a car without having to design the engine, rest is tweaking, aesthetics, performance, design.
But i am interested to hear what would actually cost me money in the above? Engine free, art assets i make, coding i do (note: The bulk is already in the engine, rest is your unique assets and scripts), servers aren't an issue, databases, project management, designing the website even.
I'm not being sarcastic, i am genuinely unsure why people are saying it costs alot of money to make a small indie online game...unless..
You haven't managed to learn how to do things yourself. Several years of manuals, tutorials, videos, college, Uni, practice, practice... time > money in this case. I would need someone as an extra pair of hands to speed it up and to write more complex code and that's about it. I'll get flamed by someone who will claim to be an AAA developer, but i would i am confused about the theory of high cost?

---

Time. It will cost you Time.
Time a regular functioning human with no fallback does not have.
Or, respectively, the game would come out in 10 years.
 
Take this game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overgrowth
I've been following the game since 2008. Its 2012 and the current build is ALPHA 166.
There are 4 people working on it with weekly updates (http://www.youtube.com/user/WolfireGames)
And its -STILL- alpha.
4 people. 4 years. Alpha.
 
You are not able to do everything yourself. Period. If you do, its going to look shit and play shit.
Because you will make mistakes in modeling that an experienced game-modeler wouldn't make, and you would optimize textures wrong because you don't know how.
You can't be an expert in everything.
Not
Fucking
Possible
 
What you would release is complete garbage with garbage code that would probably go for 5 dollars on Gamersgate, out of pitty.
But certainly not an MMO that people will want to play.

---

Yes it would take many years, but the theory is justified. You can be a near expert in all of the above, if you spent just as much time prior to that learning it, doing the degree's related to it. It's just like the theory of enough monkeys, enough typewriters and enough time...

The crap that comes out now is quite frankly a doddle for a team of amatuers, i cannot believe anyone who's spent longer than 5 minutes looking into it can say otherwise. The level of skill or effort i have seen in the last couple of years regarding indy MMO titles is pitiful. The fact that these are often teams of half a dozen is disgraceful...i focus this comment mainly on the artists/modellers.

Minecraft may not be an MMO, but it was just one person, who used the engine of someone else and the concept of someone else and did the rest himself...or so it's told. This is what i am saying, not everyone is a dreamer, not everyone just can do one job.

Great post op.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

I believe developers need to get back to competing with each other on featurees and start looking more into niche-type markets for their MMOs rather than trying to go head to head with each other in some insane bid to rach ten million subscribers with a mediocre clone game.  They should find something to make their own and build a dedicated core of players who will stay with the game for years rather than months, as seems to be the norm today with these uninspiring offerings. It's time to get real.

Bingo - this is really where the industry needs to focus. 

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Cuathon

If you use good middleware and gnu tools and you sacrifice on art assets and graphics its not actually that hard. Its mostly all about capital. Which is hardly shocking. Everything is about capital.

Well, there is love and stupidity as well, nut yeah those are the powers that rules the earth.

It is hard to find someone funding you if you are unknown and that you want to create a very different game doesn´t really help either...

Heck, Strain went to a bunch of studios when he tried to get funding for class 4 and his earlier games have sold over 15 million (not counting Wow that was his initial idea). They all told him he needed to make a game that was more like Wow for them to fund it until he talked to Microsoft, they just looked on his merits and gave him a truckload of money.

If the guy behind Diablo and Guildwars have that problems to get a funding for a non Wow like game, imagine someone that never made a game before.

Plus the fact people are looking to make an mmorpg for their first game shows the money a big red flag.

These wannabe devs should start out making small games.  Very small ones.  Build from there learning skills and gaining experiences that will help them in the future and will show the money how serious they really are about doing a game.

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by maplestone

If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.

Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.

I never claimed it was easy.  But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.

THAT is a piece of bad, borderline on absurb, advice.

A modern video game, even an indie one, needs a team (programming, art, graphics, deisgn ..) and lots of technical know-how. Assuming a random player would be anything close to have the skill set to make a full featured game, abate a good one, is just totally silly.

 

The alternative being to shout on forums demanding someone else do all the work for you?  What I'm asking is for people like the original poster to stop for a moment and really analyze what they are asking for.  

Do I believe that the OP would actually succeed in achieving his dream game by following my advice?  No.  But I think the journey, however short, would be helpful in gaining some appreciation of the scale of what is being asked for.  And every once in a blue moon, people prove me wrong and do the impossible.

I come from the pencil-and-paper era, where if you didn't like a rulebook, you simply sat down, rolled up your sleeves and wrote one of your own.  We MMO gamers have become too passive for my tastes: all consumption, no production.  We are not entitled to anything but what we make for ourselves.  The scale of an MMO is enormous - the number of different moving parts that all need be functional and polished is enormous.  Of course it's far, far more than a single individual can achieve.  But the same is true of Linux, of wikipedia, of any number of giant collaborative projects that exist out there that would be absurd to attempt if you just start by looking at the finished product.

For every Wikipedia, there are 10000 failure. You may devote precious time to try but i am not that naive. But sure, if the OP tries and fail, no harm to you and me, right?

And what is wrong with all consumption and no production? Do you watch movie? Do you complain about bad movies? Are you going to make your own movie if you complain? I think not.

We are consumers. We pay (well, guess not F2P MMOs) for our entertainment and i think it is perfectly ok to bitch & moan. Sure, it is a bit counter productive to do it all day (i would advice find another hobby) but why wouldn't we? There is no rules, no barrier to say we cannot.

And we have no obligation to produce ANYTHING.

Originally posted by BlackUhuru
@RabbiFang

Keep an eye out for Pathfinder Online.

It will be awhile until we see anything that is playable but being a part of the community from the ground up will be enjoyable.

Pathfinder Online has all the markings of a truly next-gen sandbox!

While I wait for Pathfinder Online I will play Archeage if we ever get a NA release date.

But yes I understand you frustrations, I to started playing UO 14 years ago and still resin from time to time but it's just not the same as it once was in it's prime.

I'm also done with Themepark mmo's. I enjoyed my experiences with them over the years but they all pale in comparison to the quality and depth of UO.

Check out Pathfinder Online and read Ryan Danceys blogs and posts, he really does seem to get it and has a vast amount of experience in sanbox games (3d and PnP).

There are hundreds of thousands of players in the same boat as you and people get it. Trying to beat wow in the themepark game I think is almost over. We should see a major shift in development of mmo's in the few years.

Sandbox and quality virtual worlds are coming back in style!!

Thank you for the suggestion.  I'm in the middle of reading the blog right now and am actually going to look into the PnP version while we wait.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

For every Wikipedia, there are 10000 failure. You may devote precious time to try but i am not that naive. But sure, if the OP tries and fail, no harm to you and me, right?

Have to remember that there's still one success.  Know how many successes there are from the ones that never started because there was a chance of failure?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And what is wrong with all consumption and no production? Do you watch movie? Do you complain about bad movies? Are you going to make your own movie if you complain? I think not.

I think I'll cut this line out and leave it sitting here :)

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And what is wrong with all consumption and no production? Do you watch movie? Do you complain about bad movies? Are you going to make your own movie if you complain? I think not.

I think I'll cut this line out and leave it sitting here :)

WIth all of the crap out there these days I have been seriously considering it. Well writing one at least!

Originally posted by Fenrir767

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And what is wrong with all consumption and no production? Do you watch movie? Do you complain about bad movies? Are you going to make your own movie if you complain? I think not.

I think I'll cut this line out and leave it sitting here :)

WIth all of the crap out there these days I have been seriously considering it. Well writing one at least!

Yay firefly themesong!

I hear ya OP, unfourtunately the MMORPG devs are not, or they are not listening.

aT games is listening, and they are promising big things for StarQuest Online. DX11 Graphics WASD movement, and tons of bugfixes. I would settle for the bug fixes and an improved economy. Did I also mention that they are going F2P soon and wiping the server?

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

aT games is listening, and they are promising big things for StarQuest Online. DX11 Graphics WASD movement, and tons of bugfixes. I would settle for the bug fixes and an improved economy. Did I also mention that they are going F2P soon and wiping the server?

Seems kinda like a less awesome SWG/EvE hybrid.

Themeparks sell better and reach a larger audience then hardcore sandboxes. All about dem benjamins, yo.

Sounds like the only way your going to get the game you want is to make it yourself.