Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Then you haven't done every available quest in every zone on each planet.  Even if you stealthed through all the mobs to your objectives, you would be over-levelled.  Sorry, you're missing some quest hubs.  On my Bounty Hunter who just hit 50, I  solo'd all the way through, did no flashpoints, did very few heroic quests, and left large amounts of quests undone.  I basically concentrated on class quests, space combat dailies, world quest arcs, and generally a couple of quest hubs per planets.  Only bonus series of quests I did were on Balmorra so I could skip through Nar Shaddaa with only class quests.  Every new zone I entered I was overlevelled by two levels.  In other words, I was always at least two levels higher than the minimum level for each new planet I entered, and would generally leave 2-3 levels higher than the max level, Nar Shaddaa being the exception.  My friend spent the entire levelling process after about level 20 doing green quests because he was 5-6 levels higher than he should be at about the mid point in the game due to him wanting to complete every single quest.

This game has a ridiculous amount of quest content.  No way you could do all of it and not be severely overlevelled by mid-game.

Depends. He may not be doing any bonuses or bonus stages tied to quests (not referring to the bonus planet series quests). I've done everything in this game outside of a couple Area 4s and one bonus series related to a planet that is available and while I was several levels above quests for a time now at lvl 43 the quests are catching up to me. The only things I haven't done is space combat and I haven't done much PvP with this character. So if someone wasn't doing any of the bonuses tied to quests I can certainly see that being the case for them.

I'm assuming since he talks about stealthing through mobs that is the case that he skips most of the bonuses. So I could very easily see how that is the case for him even with completing the majority if not all of the quests.

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

In terms of content?  Hell yeah they should be "forgiven" for not having multiple zones for every level during the questing process.  You're kidding, right?  No game in the history of MMOs has ever been released with tons of alternative content available at every level of the process unless it was a specific design choice by the game, in which case we probably aren't talking about a themepark game anyway.  

WoW didn't have it.

Lotro didn't have it.

Aion didn't have it.

Conan didn't have it.  

Rift STILL doesn't have it.

But we're gonna trash TOR for not releasing with enough alternative levelling zones because they should have learned from all the others who have never done it?  Silly argument.

 WoW didn't have alternative leveling zones huh?  Well this is news to me.  I think this argument is going in circles because no concrete examples have been offered.  Let me fix that.

First, I'm going to list the "leveling path" for a faction ambiguous SWTOR character.  In other words, I will list all of the possible zones that you can level in with any character in the order that you will visit them.  The zones will be separated by slashes.  Then I will do the same for WoW...

SWToR:

 1. orriban / Hutta / Tython / Ord Mantell

2. Dromund Kass / Coruscant

3. Balmorra (Empire) / Taris (Republic)

4. Nar Shaddaa

5. Tatooine

6. Alderaan

7. Taris (Empire) / Balmorra (Republic)

8. Quest

9. Hoth

10. Belsavis

11. Voss

12. Corellia

13. Ilum

Vanilla WoW:

The zones don't end and begin at exact level ranges like SWTOR, so I have to list them by level ranges in order to make sense...

1-10:  Dun Morogh / Durotar / Elwynn Forest / Mulgore / Teldrassil / Tirisfal Glades

10-20:  Darkshore / Loch Modan / Silverpine Forest / Westfall

10-25:  Barrens

15-25:  Redridge Mountains

15-27:  Stonetalon Mountains

18-30:  Ashenvale / Duskwood

20-30:  Hillsbrad / Wetlands

25-35:  Thousand Needles

30-40:  Alterac Mountains / Arathi Highlands / Desolace

30-45:  Stranglethorn Vale

35-45:  Dustwallow Marsh / Badlands / Swamp of Sorrows

40-50:  Feralas / Hinterlands / Tanaris

45-50:  Searing Gorge

45-55:  Azshara / Blasted Lands

48-55:  Un'goro Crater / Felwood

50-58:  Burning Steppes

51-58:  Western Plaguelands

53-60:  Eastern Plaguelands / Winterspring

55-60:  Deadwind Pass / Silithus

It should be pretty obvious from these lists which game has a more linear level experience.  In SWTOR, you have absolutely ZERO choice in where to level at several points in your leveling process (unless you grind FP's or PvP).  In WoW, there is never a single point in leveling where you don't have a choice of where to go.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Dracill
Not all games are done for you. I did played 4 times KOTOR, 3 JE, 6 DAO, 4 ME, 3 DA2...
for me BioWare games have more replayability than any other. That doesn't make me correct.

I played 4 characters since launch up to mid 30's without repeat a single quest. Except the black bisector in corellia because I like that quest.

For me the game have more replayability than any other MMO.

Its just for me... that doesn't make it right for you... but for my taste is the right MMO.

Really? I am rather impressed, besides NWN I just loose interest after playing them through once...

I guess there are all kinds of players.

I suppose so which is why I think a game like SWToR really speaks to a smaller demographic of mmo players. I'm finding replayability in the separate stories. Others aren't going to like that.

I have 3 characters going in SWToR and I love it.

Dragon Age? I've played through it 6 times and finishing up my 7th. I'm getting ready for a second playthrough of DAO:Awakening and will then play through DAO 2 for a second time.

Not only that but if I get to a point in one of these single player bioware games where there are a few outcomes I reload saves. Just did each outcome for "WitchHunt".

One of the largest problems for me in terms of replayability was given how fast I skyrocketed to 50 even while watching and taking part in every cutscene, side quests and all, it felt too soon for me to be going through it all again with another character. Realising I'd just gone through all of these quests a week ago, even with the main class story as the backbone, was too much to tolerate for the level of enjoyment the mechanic brings. Perhaps if there was a more open ended path option available, maybe something that allowed me to pursue my own adventure in a Star Wars universe rather than just the strictly outlined path they need me to follow for this game to even function.

Skipping the quests just to hit 50 is rather pointless as well since the quest system is the only mechanic that this game offers that isn't done better elsewhere. Plus, at 50 as Battlemaster, after a week or so of doing rehashed hardmode raids & FPs you're kind of left standing around realising there's absolutely no reason to ever go back to any of  the planets or locations you'd been to. The endgame becomes staring at your feet on the fleet or on Ilum - the rest of the universe might as well not even exist unless you missed a datacron somewhere.

One good thing about this all is I think it's evident that 'story' isn't what MMOs were lacking so they can stop that fruitless search, they were there all along and the players personal story trumps developer forced story every time. Plus they're clearly not a reliable source of long term content. Which means we likely won't see Swtor clones like we did WoW clones for years to come - luckily.

After years in development on a game that focuses so intently on delivering story that the rest of the game feels bare bones in comparison they can only provide enough story per class to last a week or two? I would love to have the ability to play long term in the Star Wars universe, but this thing had me digging deep after two weeks to even find a reason to log in. SWG held my attention for about six months and I wasn't even a huge fan, it was (in it's original form) just that much more complex and enjoyable, it offered a much broader scope of experiences than this one dimensional puppetshow.

 I do hope this does become a game I can check in on down the road (despite my negativity I like games, and would like more good games) and be pleasently surprised, but I think with the poor decisions they've made post launch and the snails pace they came at, it's pretty unlikely. If they get over this whole fourth pillar nonsense and actually worked on expanding and improving the game itself it could still have a shot, but I don't imagine we'll see people waiting around one or two years for an expansion that has another weeks worth of story.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

In terms of content?  Hell yeah they should be "forgiven" for not having multiple zones for every level during the questing process.  You're kidding, right?  No game in the history of MMOs has ever been released with tons of alternative content available at every level of the process unless it was a specific design choice by the game, in which case we probably aren't talking about a themepark game anyway.  

WoW didn't have it.

Lotro didn't have it.

Aion didn't have it.

Conan didn't have it.  

Rift STILL doesn't have it.

But we're gonna trash TOR for not releasing with enough alternative levelling zones because they should have learned from all the others who have never done it?  Silly argument.

 WoW didn't have alternative leveling zones huh?  Well this is news to me.  I think this argument is going in circles because no concrete examples have been offered.  Let me fix that.

First, I'm going to list the "leveling path" for a faction ambiguous SWTOR character.  In other words, I will list all of the possible zones that you can level in with any character in the order that you will visit them.  The zones will be separated by slashes.  Then I will do the same for WoW...

SWToR:

 1. orriban / Hutta / Tython / Ord Mantell

2. Dromund Kass / Coruscant

3. Balmorra (Empire) / Taris (Republic)

4. Nar Shaddaa

5. Tatooine

6. Alderaan

7. Taris (Empire) / Balmorra (Republic)

8. Quest

9. Hoth

10. Belsavis

11. Voss

12. Corellia

13. Ilum

Vanilla WoW:

The zones don't end and begin at exact level ranges like SWTOR, so I have to list them by level ranges in order to make sense...

1-10:  Dun Morogh / Durotar / Elwynn Forest / Mulgore / Teldrassil / Tirisfal Glades

10-20:  Darkshore / Loch Modan / Silverpine Forest / Westfall

10-25:  Barrens

15-25:  Redridge Mountains

15-27:  Stonetalon Mountains

18-30:  Ashenvale / Duskwood

20-30:  Hillsbrad / Wetlands

25-35:  Thousand Needles

30-40:  Alterac Mountains / Arathi Highlands / Desolace

30-45:  Stranglethorn Vale

35-45:  Dustwallow Marsh / Badlands / Swamp of Sorrows

40-50:  Feralas / Hinterlands / Tanaris

45-50:  Searing Gorge

45-55:  Azshara / Blasted Lands

48-55:  Un'goro Crater / Felwood

50-58:  Burning Steppes

51-58:  Western Plaguelands

53-60:  Eastern Plaguelands / Winterspring

55-60:  Deadwind Pass / Silithus

 

It should be pretty obvious from these lists which game has a more linear level experience.  In SWTOR, you have absolutely ZERO choice in where to level at several points in your leveling process (unless you grind FP's or PvP).  In WoW, there is never a single point in leveling where you don't have a choice of where to go.

Hey Creslin isn't still wrong how the debate between it being like vanilla mmo's in the pass and not being as replayable as mmos in the pass very disturbing?

I still think it is the voice overs and conversations that are making people think this. Because otherwise it is exactly the same as every other themepark mmo.

Originally posted by LoneMonk

I remember leveling in the Barrens at night. Such a different experience from leveling during the day. Or going to Ashenvale after dark - the music, insect sounds, so much ambience and "coolness".

The day night cycle does not exist in SWTOR. The ambience is nil. I turned off the Hollywood music after the first 2 hours... I'm still playing the game, but it's not memorable like WoW or Everquest.

Yea, each WoW zone has its own ambience. There are birds in the air and bugs on the ground, NPC's and mobs roam around in a sensible, common-sense manner. All those little things.,, i did not realise how much they matter to me, and if TOR did something good, it opened my eyes on that aspect.

Another thing that i found out it really matters came from Rift. There's a huge difference between the-same-one-and-only leveling path and multiple choice, No matter what level i was, WoW gave me at least 2-3 areas to level along the way, while in Rift i could not run even one alt. And no, massive multispec, even if it's cool,  cannot cover the leveling bore.

And there's another thing -  in TOR there's war here, war there, war everywhere you go, every npc is on the run... rush there; kill that, fight that, boom, bang, shooting... In Rift, the feeling is the same: invasions, rifts, zone events... WoW had those awesome places to chill, minigames, seasonal events, quests for fun, not only to kill some mobs or to solve some huge world problem.

As sad as it sounds, these new games just made me appreciate WoW more. I've quit that for more than 1 year now, but i'm on the edge of resubbing. Tired of waiting on "the next big thing" just to be displeased yet again.... I give up. A year plan, with Diablo 3 included, probably GW2 for a change as it's B2P, World of Tanks for something different sometimes, that should be enough content and variety to keep me going.

As i've said, i give up, i'm too old for this. Tired of the "omg omg it's gonna be so cool" wait for 1-2 years before release, followed by the mixed feelings from the beta just to admit, in the end, that the "so cool" new game flopped hard (as Rift and TOR did). Not looking to argue here, i don't care how many boxes they've sold or whatever. We, gamers who have played a few, realise that those were huge letdowns. Yea we've got fun playing them for 1-3 months, some of us still do play them but they are not "it".

Originally posted by DJJazzy

I still think it is the voice overs and conversations that are making people think this.

I certainly think that is part of it.

you are playing in a way which absolutely guarantees the most repetitive feeling replays possible.  And that's the same for most games.

Playing 4 characters of the same faction in a row, particularly bringing, say, one from 15-20, then another from 15-20, and so on will most certainly guarantee mindnumbing repetitiveness at some point.  Like most games, the faction tends to converge at a fairly early level, and thus, world and sidequests are moreless the same for the whole faction.  Some games have a little overlap, in that you can leave one zone early and go to the next, or stay longer, etc.  TOR does this through Bonus Series missions.

The way to feel the least amount of repetitiveness is to do something like this:

Play a Rep Force user to max, say, a SI

Play an Imp force user to max, say, a JK

Play a non-force Rep user to max, say, a Smuggler

Play a non-force IMP user to max, a BH

Play the other REP force user

Play the other Sith force user

and so on.  You get the point.  That's not even considering AC's or LS/DS. 

A could more things:

Dialogue on many world and side-missions have some subtle differences, based on your class.

Repeatables, Dailies, Flashpoints, and space missions give you more than enough XP to skip many side quests, and maybe even world quests.

How can one say that the game doesnt have replayability?  MikeB and mmorpg.com have put their heart and soul into ensuring that the market gets the message that this game is scored at an 8.7overall, and even its' (the game) Innovation that it brings to the market and the Longevity one should have with this "Massively'Multiplayer" game is an 8.

An 8 folks! An 8.  Thats on a scale of 1-10 as opposed to 1-100 the last time I checked.  Maybe I could be wrong, or someone else is. 

Originally posted by udon

Honestly what more would it have taken to keep you from complaining?  Because I have a hard time seeing any game company releasing a new MMO with more content than what SW:TOR has today.  It's hands above what EQ2, WoW, LOTR, etc. had at launch.

Uhm... no. Just no. I think there's no need for anyone to go into your post any further because it's obvious how wrong you are.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

In terms of content?  Hell yeah they should be "forgiven" for not having multiple zones for every level during the questing process.  You're kidding, right?  No game in the history of MMOs has ever been released with tons of alternative content available at every level of the process unless it was a specific design choice by the game, in which case we probably aren't talking about a themepark game anyway.  

WoW didn't have it.

Lotro didn't have it.

Aion didn't have it.

Conan didn't have it.  

Rift STILL doesn't have it.

But we're gonna trash TOR for not releasing with enough alternative levelling zones because they should have learned from all the others who have never done it?  Silly argument.

 WoW didn't have alternative leveling zones huh?  Well this is news to me.  I think this argument is going in circles because no concrete examples have been offered.  Let me fix that.

First, I'm going to list the "leveling path" for a faction ambiguous SWTOR character.  In other words, I will list all of the possible zones that you can level in with any character in the order that you will visit them.  The zones will be separated by slashes.  Then I will do the same for WoW...

SWToR:

 1. orriban / Hutta / Tython / Ord Mantell

2. Dromund Kass / Coruscant

3. Balmorra (Empire) / Taris (Republic)

4. Nar Shaddaa

5. Tatooine

6. Alderaan

7. Taris (Empire) / Balmorra (Republic)

8. Quest

9. Hoth

10. Belsavis

11. Voss

12. Corellia

13. Ilum

Vanilla WoW:

The zones don't end and begin at exact level ranges like SWTOR, so I have to list them by level ranges in order to make sense...

1-10:  Dun Morogh / Durotar / Elwynn Forest / Mulgore / Teldrassil / Tirisfal Glades

10-20:  Darkshore / Loch Modan / Silverpine Forest / Westfall

10-25:  Barrens

15-25:  Redridge Mountains

15-27:  Stonetalon Mountains

18-30:  Ashenvale / Duskwood

20-30:  Hillsbrad / Wetlands

25-35:  Thousand Needles

30-40:  Alterac Mountains / Arathi Highlands / Desolace

30-45:  Stranglethorn Vale

35-45:  Dustwallow Marsh / Badlands / Swamp of Sorrows

40-50:  Feralas / Hinterlands / Tanaris

45-50:  Searing Gorge

45-55:  Azshara / Blasted Lands

48-55:  Un'goro Crater / Felwood

50-58:  Burning Steppes

51-58:  Western Plaguelands

53-60:  Eastern Plaguelands / Winterspring

55-60:  Deadwind Pass / Silithus

 

It should be pretty obvious from these lists which game has a more linear level experience.  In SWTOR, you have absolutely ZERO choice in where to level at several points in your leveling process (unless you grind FP's or PvP).  In WoW, there is never a single point in leveling where you don't have a choice of where to go.

Thank you, Creslin.  It is this very list that PROVES the points in this thread about SWTOR and why the replayability is not good in it.  It's also the main reason I think these MMORPGs post WoW have been failing.  The ones just slipping by either added new paths to leveling, i.e LOTRO and EQ2 or have dynamic content to help one through i.e. Rift.

AoC, Aion, STO, CO, SWTOR etc. besides not having open seamless worlds, are very limited in leveling choices thereby making them feel very shallow and not "massive".

Originally posted by Robsolf

you are playing in a way which absolutely guarantees the most repetitive feeling replays possible.  And that's the same for most games.

  [...]

Oh, so we're playing it wrong. That explains everything. It should come with that in a manual, named "How to play TOR right not to feel boring and repetitive", containing the order and faction which we create alts etc.

Please excuse the sarcasm, not aiming to be rude, but just to point that the tools should be there to make the game fun for me, it's not me which should adapt in order to like the game and have fun.

And "it's new, this happened to all games at launch" is not an excuse. If, compared to other games, the content and choices i have are subpar, charge me accordingly.

Originally posted by Khors

How can one say that the game doesnt have replayability?  MikeB and mmorpg.com have put their heart and soul into ensuring that the market gets the message that this game is scored at an 8.7overall, and even its' (the game) Innovation that it brings to the market and the Longevity one should have with this "Massively'Multiplayer" game is an 8.

 

An 8 folks! An 8.  Thats on a scale of 1-10 as opposed to 1-100 the last time I checked.  Maybe I could be wrong, or someone else is. 

Actually if I'm correct one of them who did rate admitted to giving it an high rating too soon.

It wasn't MikeB but just letting you know.

Hell shit happens you know?

Originally posted by BadSpock

I think a lot of people got "sold" on Bioware's statement that each class had about 200 hours of story.

It took me about 6 days play time to reach 50 on my first toon, do the math that is over 200 hours.

Have a couple of alts, a lot of repeat content.

Except, of course, the Sith side all pretty much unique when compared to Republic side.

So is it the most content of any MMO released? At release, I'd have to agree - hands down.

But is it enough and is it what people were expecting?

I think people had unrealistic expectations (for a MMO? No way!) :)

It's pretty close.  Folks bring up WoW, which is probably the best example for lots of content.  Like TOR, WoW has separate content for both factions to max, and had it at launch.

However, at launch, it may have had, say, 2 different zones for SOME of the same levels, but I recall that you had to pretty much complete all the quests in both to get the XP to move on(no longer seems the case with since CAT).  This would be the equivelent(for example) of TOR blending Hoth and Balmorra, making you go back and forth for 8 levels.  Wouldn't be such a bad thing, IMO.

Anyhoo... TOR's trump card is the class missions, which are a significant chunk of the overall content, and they're there from 1-50.  WoW has some options for unique content up to about level 40-ish, while TOR guarantees you SOME unique content for each class throughout.

Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by Robsolf

you are playing in a way which absolutely guarantees the most repetitive feeling replays possible.  And that's the same for most games.

  [...]

Oh, so we're playing it wrong. That explains everything. It should come with that in a manual, named "How to play TOR right not to feel boring and repetitive", containing the order and faction which we create alts etc.

 

Please excuse the sarcasm, not aiming to be rude, but just to point that the tools should be there to make the game fun for me, it's not me which should adapt in order to like the game and have fun.

And "it's new, this happened to all games at launch" is not an excuse. If, compared to other games, the content and choices i have are subpar, charge me accordingly.

If you're playing with the idea that you want max playability with minimal deja' vu, then yes, you're playing it wrong.

It doesn't matter HOW LONG the game has been out.  I'm not saying, AT ALL, "wait til' they get more starter areas!"  I'm saying...

To take WoW for example:

If you play a Night Elf Hunter to 10, then turn around and play a Night Elf Druid from 1-10, then get upset because you played the SAME CONTENT, then whose fault is it?

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

In terms of content?  Hell yeah they should be "forgiven" for not having multiple zones for every level during the questing process.  You're kidding, right?  No game in the history of MMOs has ever been released with tons of alternative content available at every level of the process unless it was a specific design choice by the game, in which case we probably aren't talking about a themepark game anyway.  

WoW didn't have it.

Lotro didn't have it.

Aion didn't have it.

Conan didn't have it.  

Rift STILL doesn't have it.

But we're gonna trash TOR for not releasing with enough alternative levelling zones because they should have learned from all the others who have never done it?  Silly argument.

 WoW didn't have alternative leveling zones huh?  Well this is news to me.  I think this argument is going in circles because no concrete examples have been offered.  Let me fix that.

First, I'm going to list the "leveling path" for a faction ambiguous SWTOR character.  In other words, I will list all of the possible zones that you can level in with any character in the order that you will visit them.  The zones will be separated by slashes.  Then I will do the same for WoW...

SWToR:

 1. orriban / Hutta / Tython / Ord Mantell

2. Dromund Kass / Coruscant

3. Balmorra (Empire) / Taris (Republic)

4. Nar Shaddaa

5. Tatooine

6. Alderaan

7. Taris (Empire) / Balmorra (Republic)

8. Quest

9. Hoth

10. Belsavis

11. Voss

12. Corellia

13. Ilum

Vanilla WoW:

The zones don't end and begin at exact level ranges like SWTOR, so I have to list them by level ranges in order to make sense...

1-10:  Dun Morogh / Durotar / Elwynn Forest / Mulgore / Teldrassil / Tirisfal Glades

10-20:  Darkshore / Loch Modan / Silverpine Forest / Westfall

10-25:  Barrens

15-25:  Redridge Mountains

15-27:  Stonetalon Mountains

18-30:  Ashenvale / Duskwood

20-30:  Hillsbrad / Wetlands

25-35:  Thousand Needles

30-40:  Alterac Mountains / Arathi Highlands / Desolace

30-45:  Stranglethorn Vale

35-45:  Dustwallow Marsh / Badlands / Swamp of Sorrows

40-50:  Feralas / Hinterlands / Tanaris

45-50:  Searing Gorge

45-55:  Azshara / Blasted Lands

48-55:  Un'goro Crater / Felwood

50-58:  Burning Steppes

51-58:  Western Plaguelands

53-60:  Eastern Plaguelands / Winterspring

55-60:  Deadwind Pass / Silithus

 

It should be pretty obvious from these lists which game has a more linear level experience.  In SWTOR, you have absolutely ZERO choice in where to level at several points in your leveling process (unless you grind FP's or PvP).  In WoW, there is never a single point in leveling where you don't have a choice of where to go.

Thank you, Creslin.  It is this very list that PROVES the points in this thread about SWTOR and why the replayability is not good in it.  It's also the main reason I think these MMORPGs post WoW have been failing.  The ones just slipping by either added new paths to leveling, i.e LOTRO and EQ2 or have dynamic content to help one through i.e. Rift.

AoC, Aion, STO, CO, SWTOR etc. besides not having open seamless worlds, are very limited in leveling choices thereby making them feel very shallow and not "massive".

Umm, this list for WoW....means absolutely nothing in regards to replayability in that game. You dont have to go to 1/10 of that list to level to 60 any more, and haven't since the end of Vanilla pretty much. The last 4-5 YEARS of that game have been a 3-4 day to cap game on ANY alt. You can have all the replay you want in WoW when the world around you means absolutely nothing when it comes to leveling your character up. 

Originally posted by Robsolf

If you play a Night Elf Hunter to 10, then turn around and play a Night Elf Druid from 1-10, then get upset because you played the SAME CONTENT, then whose fault is it?

It would be the developer's fault because they created the game. Is this a trick question?

Originally posted by Kaocan

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

In terms of content?  Hell yeah they should be "forgiven" for not having multiple zones for every level during the questing process.  You're kidding, right?  No game in the history of MMOs has ever been released with tons of alternative content available at every level of the process unless it was a specific design choice by the game, in which case we probably aren't talking about a themepark game anyway.  

WoW didn't have it.

Lotro didn't have it.

Aion didn't have it.

Conan didn't have it.  

Rift STILL doesn't have it.

But we're gonna trash TOR for not releasing with enough alternative levelling zones because they should have learned from all the others who have never done it?  Silly argument.

 WoW didn't have alternative leveling zones huh?  Well this is news to me.  I think this argument is going in circles because no concrete examples have been offered.  Let me fix that.

First, I'm going to list the "leveling path" for a faction ambiguous SWTOR character.  In other words, I will list all of the possible zones that you can level in with any character in the order that you will visit them.  The zones will be separated by slashes.  Then I will do the same for WoW...

SWToR:

 1. orriban / Hutta / Tython / Ord Mantell

2. Dromund Kass / Coruscant

3. Balmorra (Empire) / Taris (Republic)

4. Nar Shaddaa

5. Tatooine

6. Alderaan

7. Taris (Empire) / Balmorra (Republic)

8. Quest

9. Hoth

10. Belsavis

11. Voss

12. Corellia

13. Ilum

Vanilla WoW:

The zones don't end and begin at exact level ranges like SWTOR, so I have to list them by level ranges in order to make sense...

1-10:  Dun Morogh / Durotar / Elwynn Forest / Mulgore / Teldrassil / Tirisfal Glades

10-20:  Darkshore / Loch Modan / Silverpine Forest / Westfall

10-25:  Barrens

15-25:  Redridge Mountains

15-27:  Stonetalon Mountains

18-30:  Ashenvale / Duskwood

20-30:  Hillsbrad / Wetlands

25-35:  Thousand Needles

30-40:  Alterac Mountains / Arathi Highlands / Desolace

30-45:  Stranglethorn Vale

35-45:  Dustwallow Marsh / Badlands / Swamp of Sorrows

40-50:  Feralas / Hinterlands / Tanaris

45-50:  Searing Gorge

45-55:  Azshara / Blasted Lands

48-55:  Un'goro Crater / Felwood

50-58:  Burning Steppes

51-58:  Western Plaguelands

53-60:  Eastern Plaguelands / Winterspring

55-60:  Deadwind Pass / Silithus

 

It should be pretty obvious from these lists which game has a more linear level experience.  In SWTOR, you have absolutely ZERO choice in where to level at several points in your leveling process (unless you grind FP's or PvP).  In WoW, there is never a single point in leveling where you don't have a choice of where to go.

Thank you, Creslin.  It is this very list that PROVES the points in this thread about SWTOR and why the replayability is not good in it.  It's also the main reason I think these MMORPGs post WoW have been failing.  The ones just slipping by either added new paths to leveling, i.e LOTRO and EQ2 or have dynamic content to help one through i.e. Rift.

AoC, Aion, STO, CO, SWTOR etc. besides not having open seamless worlds, are very limited in leveling choices thereby making them feel very shallow and not "massive".

Umm, this list for WoW....means absolutely nothing in regards to replayability in that game. You dont have to go to 1/10 of that list to level to 60 any more, and haven't since the end of Vanilla pretty much. The last 4-5 YEARS of that game have been a 3-4 day to cap game on ANY alt. You can have all the replay you want in WoW when the world around you means absolutely nothing when it comes to leveling your character up. 

That's your opinion not fact.  I still have tons of replayability options on any new character I create in WoW.  I don't rush through it like the community does in the way you described.  Also, WoW NOW is not what is being spoken about.  We're talking about vanilla WoW and it's launch replayability in comparison to SWTOR.