My favorite argument around here is when themeparkers say "no one wants to craft" or "no one wants non-combat character classes" or " no one wants to be social or create their own adventures".  The fact is that this is true of some people, and not true of others.  Furthermore, there are probably hundreds of thousands of players who would *love* a solid, well built and fun sandbox if they ever had the chance to try one.  Most players who came to this genre with WoW have never even played a decent sandbox/hybrid type game, and the full themepark experience is all they really know.

As I have said before, I came to MMOs from hardcore FPS clan match gaming, and I had no idea how much I was going to love the community and non-combat aspects of MMO games until I played SWG.  Now having spent many years in the MMO genre playing all different types of games, I can say that I very much prefer a sandbox / open world type game.

I can agree with those who say that Themeparks are probably more popular, and by a decent margin.  However, I still believe there are millions of players out there who would fall in love with open world MMOs if they had the chance to play a solid one.

Looking ahead, there are some interesting things coming down the road.  The hybrid ArchAge, for example, has some seriously awesome potential to excite a lot of people.

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

Except the sandbox mmorpg market is a niche market. It's also a small market. Minecraft and Terraria have a very different feel from mmorpg and Skyrim is way different. The million+ people who would play Minecraft or Skyrim are not a million+ people who would play a sandbox mmorpg where the nine hours of work they put into building a skull mountain with smokestacks and lava eye sockets gets wasted because it gets destroyed or taken over by a random group of @sshats.

 

 

2 things.

1- The Sandbox market is not as small or niche as you assume. If you add up all the people that play Sandbox MMOs now (EvE, UO, DF, MO, WURM, Xsyon, Dawntide, Minecraft, SWG:Emu) and all the people interested in a Sandbox MMO, but play Themeparks, you would easily get 1-2+ Million. No its not WoW numbers, but it isnt small or niche either.

 

2- Why do people (and Developers) always assume Sandbox must include FFA PvP?

If a Sandbox MMO came out with Consensual PvP (Duels/Guildwars) you dont think it would do well?

1. I like how you sneak minecraft in your list of sandbox MMOs.  Nice try.

2. No idea

Originally posted by Leodious

 

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Originally posted by Moaky07

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Originally posted by Leodious
Of course people like open sandboxy games. Look at Eve. Why is this even a question?
If a game like Eve, that has so many things that are off-putting to many players (controls, progression system, full pvp, etc.) can have a large number of players, just think what a real sandbox with traditional controls in a fantasy setting could get if it lived up to triple A standards of production quality and polish, unlike Ryzom (which was amazing, but too rough around the edge for many people), Vanguard (similar problems, and terrible start), or Darkfall (don't even get me started).
If you had a game with sandbox ideas similar to any or all of these games, but quality and polish on the level of a triple A game, you would have a big hit.


My point is that it isn't the idea of a sandbox that puts people off sandboxes. It is the low level of polish that almost inevitably comes with having an small developer. It isn't their fault, but players have big expectations about quality and polish after seeing WoW, and let's not lie to ourselves; WoW changed everything, like it or not.

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Actually I believe MMO sandboxes are what put folks off playing all on their own.
 
PVP forced on folks? If so you lose a huge number of gamers.
Lack of a meaningful PVE game? If so you lose subs.
Forced to buy from Owen? Smack in the face to PVE gaming.....lose more customers.
 
You just arent seeing it from a PVE themepark gamers perspective. EQ is as "sandboxy" as games need to be for folks with  similar tastes to mine. The huge time sinks, and unmerciful death penalties though wont cut it these days. You will never force us to PVP, and we arent going to simply farm money to keep buying the same gear.

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Of course there are people who prefer theme parks. I never implied there were not such people. But there is a market for sanboxes, and it is much larger than the populations of games like those I mentioned would lead some people to believe. Eve is a great example.

Forced pvp and harsh death penalties are neither requirements for a sandbox nor turnoffs to a large number of players. Again, Eve is a perfect example. You might lose some subs with those decisions, but you will also gain some as well. There are people who like that sort of thing.

What annoys me are people like you trying to say that "gamers" want a certain thing. There are many different types of players, and different games should be made to cater to them. Most of the few decent sandbox ideas that have been made are made with poor quality and polish, and that is what turns off people.

What annoys me is when someone creates a strawman argument, and then goes to town.

I quantified what I was saying by the phrase "folks with similar tastes to mine".  Everything I said about what will affect sub numbers is true as well. When someone points out something, you dont need to have your feelings hurt.

Originally posted by DLuna

Why is Skyrim considered a sandbox anyway? It still has developer created quests/content, only that you can do them in any order you wish and that they can have changes to the world.

So wouldn't that technically make GW2 a sandbox (non-linear, optional quest structure)? Something isn't quite right about that.

I'm pretty sure Elder Scrolls is a themepark.

Well, it is a themepark but it can be played in more of a sandboxish way if one wants. One doesn't have to do the quests. One can just adopt a role and pretty much play that role within the confines of the game.

Other people tend to fool around and collect things or use the in game avatars as subjects for elaborate screen shots.

Have you ever played skyrim or oblvion or even morrowind as a non-violent character? Sure, there are premade quests that dont' allow this but it's an interesting way to play.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by DLuna

Why is Skyrim considered a sandbox anyway? It still has developer created quests/content, only that you can do them in any order you wish and that they can have changes to the world.

So wouldn't that technically make GW2 a sandbox (non-linear, optional quest structure)? Something isn't quite right about that.

I'm pretty sure Elder Scrolls is a themepark.

Well, it is a themepark but it can be played in more of a sandboxish way if one wants. One doesn't have to do the quests. One can just adopt a role and pretty much play that role within the confines of the game.

Other people tend to fool around and collect things or use the in game avatars as subjects for elaborate screen shots.

Have you ever played skyrim or oblvion or even morrowind as a non-violent character? Sure, there are premade quests that dont' allow this but it's an interesting way to play.

Honestly the mod tools are much more interesting than the content bethesda puts in.

Skyim and Minecraft have proven people like sandbox open-world games.

Doesn't prove anything about open-world/sandbox MMOs.

The major reason why many people who play Themepark MMOs don't play sandbox MMOs but love/enjoy sandbox single player games?

Other people.

The rules and restrictions of Themepark MMOs save us from the annoyance of many other players in MMOs.

Especially in regards to PvP and open world/FFA PvP which sandbox MMOs just can't seem to seperate themselves from.

So yeah, I loved UO but only POST Trammel where I had a choice between PvE/PvP - actively play Minecraft and loved the hell out of Skyrim (still haven't finished main story) but I can't stand open world / sandbox MMOs JUST because of the ffa / unrestricted PvP.

Playing TOR on a PvP server, I do like the danger and risk of random open world encounters, but unlike sandbox games in a themepark PvP server there aren't nearly as many if any ways to completely ruin a persons play experience.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Mellkor

 

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Originally posted by laokoko
ya i like skyrim.  I have fun for 60 hours. 
but for mmorpg i expect it to give me thousands of hours of fun
and you know skyrim map is smaller than the typical themepark mmorpg map.  I don't know how you fit 50,000 concurrent player in it.

---

 

It's not small. Disable fast travel and you will see how big it really is.

Walk from one end of one continent in any MMO out there and see how small Skyrim feels.  It might take me an hour to get from one end of Skyrim to the other.  It will take you all damn day to walk from one end of Northrend to the other.

The success of Skyrim and Minecraft can be brought on by a few things.

First off both have a very active and very powerful community that was there before launch.  Both games were everywhere and hyped to all hell.  Everyone KNEW that these games would be huge because everyone told them that.

Second Skyrim is a franchise.  It is the fifth Elder Scrolls game.  It is a console release as well.  Tie that in and you will have a blockbuster even if the game sucked.  Thinking that sandboxes will transcend into MMOs because of this would be like thinking MOBA FPS games will move into MMOs because of how popular MW3, BF3, and Halo 3 are.

Third, the presumption here is that theme parks are less sandbox than Skyrim.  Everything I can do in Skyrim I can do in most MMOs.  I can build my own gear.  I can travel and look around the world.  I can pick up side quests.  I can find companions.  I can randomly run into dungeons.

Fourth, Skyrim and Minecraft cater to a casual audience.  Because the price tag on these games do not have a subscription fee people can play them at their own pace.  Minecraft has tones of play value in it because a lot of it is user created content.  But Skyrim I honestly finished everything after 100 hours of play.  Compare that to an MMO I would play that somewhere in the vicinity of 80 hours a week.

Although I'm sure if either of these IPs created MMOs they would be successful they would also be largely rejected by the same communtiy that demands a sandbox.  I know there is going to be a LEGO Minecraft coming out in the near future.  I'm not sure if this is intended to be an MMO or not.

When Portal became popular everyone thought that the puzzle game was back and sudddenly a new wave of popular puzzle games would come out.  Since Portal the only puzzles games I can think of that are remotely popular are Q.U.B.E. and Orcs Must Die.  There has been no puzzle revolution.

Honestly do you want an Elder Scrolls MMO?  Imagine how unfun Skyrim would be if every time you went to go kill the bandit leader he was already dead.  Or every time you went to try and collect Daeya's Hearts for your Ebon armor they were all dead.  Worst yet imagine you are walking along on your horse when someone throws a lightning bolt at you and because of the games poor balancing melee is nowhere near as good as magic.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Skyim and Minecraft have proven people like sandbox open-world games.

Doesn't prove anything about open-world/sandbox MMOs.

 

The major reason why many people who play Themepark MMOs don't play sandbox MMOs but love/enjoy sandbox single player games?

Other people.

The rules and restrictions of Themepark MMOs save us from the annoyance of many other players in MMOs.

Especially in regards to PvP and open world/FFA PvP which sandbox MMOs just can't seem to seperate themselves from.

 

So yeah, I loved UO but only POST Trammel where I had a choice between PvE/PvP - actively play Minecraft and loved the hell out of Skyrim (still haven't finished main story) but I can't stand open world / sandbox MMOs JUST because of the ffa / unrestricted PvP.

Playing TOR on a PvP server, I do like the danger and risk of random open world encounters, but unlike sandbox games in a themepark PvP server there aren't nearly as many if any ways to completely ruin a persons play experience.

Just my 2 cents.

BadSpock,  I wonder if your main problem is that you have never experienced a game where those annoying "other people" were actually a useful and friendly part of your gaming experience.  Frankly, what you say describes my experience with themepark games.  Modern themeparks tend to be centered around the individual and they offer little in the way of friendship or community building and instead favor don't-look-back power-leveling.  They also tend to point people in the way of greed, constantly thinking about how much faster they can level their own toon over other people, how much loot they can get, how much they can sell stuff for, etc., rather than considering the greater good of the game's community (or at least their faction) while playing the game.

My question to you is, what good is even playing an MMO in the first place if you are walking into the game with the attitude of avoiding other people?  Why not find some kind of Co-op game, or a single player RPG?  I suppose there will always be room for MMO games that are really only single-player centered games with online elements, such as SWTOR, but that doesn't mean this is the only game people want.

I'm the exact opposite.  In fact single player games like Skyrim don't appeal to me at all (as awesome as it is) for the simple fact that there are no other real life people for me to interact with.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

BadSpock,  I wonder if your main problem is that you have never experienced a game where those annoying "other people" were actually a useful and friendly part of your gaming experience. 

My question to you is, what good is even playing an MMO in the first place if you are walking into the game with the attitude of avoiding other people?  Why not find some kind of Co-op game, or a single player RPG?  I suppose there will always be room for MMO games that are really only single-player centered games with online elements, such as SWTOR, but that doesn't mean this is the only game people want.

I'm the exact opposite.  In fact single player games like Skyrim don't appeal to me at all (as awesome as it is) for the simple fact that there are no other real life people for me to interact with.

I think the MMO population has changed... people aren't as nice and helpful as they used to be and the community is no where near as friendly, in general, as they were back in the day.

I'd fear what the modern MMO population would do in an open world environment where they could directly effect the play experience of others... that'd be terrifying.

That being said, my experience in open world and FFA PvP all the way back to 99/00' UO pre-Trammel (and post in Felucca) always made one thing abundantly clear to me - that the vast majority of PK's had no honor and just loved to ruin other people's fun just for their own amusement. Noob ganking, griefing, etc.

I have found far, far, far more useful and friendly people who became a part of my gaming experience in Themepark games.

That, however, has also changed. WoW in the beginning was awesome, the community was great and the game was amazingly fun. Reputation mattered, being social and socialable mattered - It has changed so much over time, and the players have changed with it or perhaps the changing demographics of the game changed the game to what it is now not the other way around?

We used to open world PvP for FUN in WoW, no rewards, no honor, no reason other than it was FUN to fight other players from the opposing faction.

Now? In TOR on Illum people kill swap to get their dailies done. In STO they had a problem where people would Warp-Core-Breach gank other players. In games like EvE, any PK will one shot and pod-kill a worthless noob and laugh.. a noob with NOTHING of value financially or strategically.

I fear for this genre not because I think the developers are slacking off or somehow less talented than they used to be, not at all, but because they are giving us EXACTLY what the masses have asked for and it will only get worse.

The modern MMO is what it is because of the players.

I fear what those players could/would do if given the freedom to effect the game play of others in a negative way.

People THINK they want a sandbox MMO, and sure, they certainly like sandbox SPG's.

But the problem lies in the fact that they want all their actions to effect the world and everyone's gameplay, but they don't want those other players to have the same effect over their own world and gameplay.  Because:

"what THOSE people are doing to the world sucks!"

Imagine everyone one the server saying that all at once, and you'd know what it would be like to have Skyrim as an MMO.

That said, I invite anyone to try to build it.  When it's built, send me a beta invite.  I'd LOVE to try it out, and would LOVE for someone to solve those sorts of issues to create a successful sandbox MMO.

Originally posted by Robsolf

People THINK they want a sandbox MMO, and sure, they certainly like sandbox SPG's.

But the problem lies in the fact that they want all their actions to effect the world and everyone's gameplay, but they don't want those other players to have the same effect over their own world and gameplay.  Because:

"what THOSE people are doing to the world sucks!"

 

i can confirm this. when i was a young boy i loved to build a sandcastle at the beach all day long. but man, did i hate my little stupid sister stomping over it ...

DING DING DING.... we have a winner. This is exactly why sandbox MMOs will never be more than a niche. Everyone wants to have things thier way, but be damned if anyone else gets to. Its human nature to want that control over the world, but the same himan nature that wont allow you to accept what others are doing to it. You all think you want a sandbox, but if you get it, you would just destroy it and it could never live up to your expectations :P

I see quite a few misconceptions about Minecraft here...some people should really play it before commenting.

MC is both a single player AND MMO game. There are servers that host hundreds of players.  That's pretty massive if you ask me.  Now some may say OMG, EVE 50k concurrent players! But really? You never interact with more than a fraction of those players. Jita..hundred + at the most.

Also Sandbox is NOT the same as free for all.  Many MC servers have rules to prevent (or limit) griefing. Anarchy is never good for gameplay.

If developers AREN'T paying attention to Skyrim or Minecraft, they're stupid.

If the people making sandbox games would just cool it with the horrible idea of full loot ffa pvp then i gauratee you people would play sandboxes. At the age of 27 my idea of fun isnt getting ganked by 5 15 years olds calling me fag.

Originally posted by Cephus404

I just don't get where people are saying that Skyrim is a sandbox.  It's not.  It's pure themepark.  It is full of quests.  True, you don't have to do them in order, but there is a main storyline that you have to go through eventually.  The hallmark of a sandbox is that there is *NOTHING* you have to do, *NO* story, *NO* quests, etc.  You just run around in a world doing what you want to do.

Skyrim isn't that game.  It's a great, fun game, I love playing it, but it's not a sandbox in any way, shape or form.

I agree. In fact, it is not very different from WOW (abate all the stories, voice acting & cut scenes).

You can more or less roam WOW and do whatever quests (up to your level) you want ... pretty much the same as Skyrim.

Plus, skyrim has much more instaneous fast travel, compared to WOW.

Just having a big world to roam in and the ability to choose from many activites ... you do not need a sandbox games. WOW and many wow-like games have that too.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Skyim and Minecraft have proven people like sandbox open-world games.

Doesn't prove anything about open-world/sandbox MMOs.

 

The major reason why many people who play Themepark MMOs don't play sandbox MMOs but love/enjoy sandbox single player games?

Other people.

The rules and restrictions of Themepark MMOs save us from the annoyance of many other players in MMOs.

Especially in regards to PvP and open world/FFA PvP which sandbox MMOs just can't seem to seperate themselves from.

 

So yeah, I loved UO but only POST Trammel where I had a choice between PvE/PvP - actively play Minecraft and loved the hell out of Skyrim (still haven't finished main story) but I can't stand open world / sandbox MMOs JUST because of the ffa / unrestricted PvP.

Playing TOR on a PvP server, I do like the danger and risk of random open world encounters, but unlike sandbox games in a themepark PvP server there aren't nearly as many if any ways to completely ruin a persons play experience.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry but you are showing the same lack of imagination the creators of those "innovative" sandboxes exhibit when they design "innovative" clones of pre-trammel UO in 3D.

There is no reason why a sandbox should be FFA full-loot PvP. In fact here is no reason why a sandbox should have PvP or even any combat at all.

Imagine a mmorpg where you grow things, build and trade with other people to grow and build things. Why not? Crummy farmville did it, now imagine it done a proper way.

Imagine a sandbox mmorpg where all PvP is done in instanced arenas, why not? Or a Dungeon Keeper mmorpg where 1/2 of the game is building your stronghold and the other half is raiding other players'?

These FFA PvP full-loot people are keeping the sandbox sub-genre in a tiny little narrow hole, just like WoW is doing to themeparks. Really the time is nigh for someone to break away from cloning either UO or EQ. I'm sick to death of it, really.

I am doing it! C++, OpenGL and so forth. Sadly the graphics are going to be subwow to save me time and money. Suck it up.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by BadSpock

Skyim and Minecraft have proven people like sandbox open-world games.

Doesn't prove anything about open-world/sandbox MMOs.

 

The major reason why many people who play Themepark MMOs don't play sandbox MMOs but love/enjoy sandbox single player games?

Other people.

The rules and restrictions of Themepark MMOs save us from the annoyance of many other players in MMOs.

Especially in regards to PvP and open world/FFA PvP which sandbox MMOs just can't seem to seperate themselves from.

 

So yeah, I loved UO but only POST Trammel where I had a choice between PvE/PvP - actively play Minecraft and loved the hell out of Skyrim (still haven't finished main story) but I can't stand open world / sandbox MMOs JUST because of the ffa / unrestricted PvP.

Playing TOR on a PvP server, I do like the danger and risk of random open world encounters, but unlike sandbox games in a themepark PvP server there aren't nearly as many if any ways to completely ruin a persons play experience.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry but you are showing the same lack of imagination the creators of those "innovative" sandboxes exhibit when they design "innovative" clones of pre-trammel UO in 3D.

There is no reason why a sandbox should be FFA full-loot PvP. In fact here is no reason why a sandbox should have PvP or even any combat at all.

Imagine a mmorpg where you grow things, build and trade with other people to grow and build things. Why not? Crummy farmville did it, now imagine it done a proper way.

Imagine a sandbox mmorpg where all PvP is done in instanced arenas, why not? Or a Dungeon Keeper mmorpg where 1/2 of the game is building your stronghold and the other half is raiding other players'?

These FFA PvP full-loot people are keeping the sandbox sub-genre in a tiny little narrow hole, just like WoW is doing to themeparks. Really the time is nigh for someone to break away from cloning either UO or EQ. I'm sick to death of it, really.

Truer words, my friend, truer words.  I'd most like to see a sandbox game in which the environment/world actually changes. 

The OP could have just said.  "Skyrim and Minecraft have proven that people do like open-world/sandbox MMO...that is done RIGHT!"

The current issue with Sandbox/open-world MMO games is the same problem that is plaguing the current crop of online games.  They are half-assed and incomplete on release.   It seems the trend of putting out a half finished unpolished product early has become the current staple since 2001 with World War II Online.   Unfortunately it has spread from small indie developers to major companies like Bioware, Blizzard, and SOE.   They have found that most gamers will still shell out billions of dollars/euros for a nearly complete product.  

Why do we as gamers let them do this to us?  When in the real world we would never buy a car that is supposed to have a engine and 4 wheels, but only came out with 2 wheels and no engine.   But the manufacture says they will let you buy the extra wheels in a HUGE content update in one year!   Most of us would walk away and go and get a car that works. 

Gamers need to start talking with their wallets not with their forum posts.   Developers, and publishers dont care about some digital words on a flat screen monitor,  that may or may not be spelled correctly.   They only care about one thing, MONEY!

Originally posted by Dredphyre

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by BadSpock

Skyim and Minecraft have proven people like sandbox open-world games.

Doesn't prove anything about open-world/sandbox MMOs.

 

The major reason why many people who play Themepark MMOs don't play sandbox MMOs but love/enjoy sandbox single player games?

Other people.

The rules and restrictions of Themepark MMOs save us from the annoyance of many other players in MMOs.

Especially in regards to PvP and open world/FFA PvP which sandbox MMOs just can't seem to seperate themselves from.

 

So yeah, I loved UO but only POST Trammel where I had a choice between PvE/PvP - actively play Minecraft and loved the hell out of Skyrim (still haven't finished main story) but I can't stand open world / sandbox MMOs JUST because of the ffa / unrestricted PvP.

Playing TOR on a PvP server, I do like the danger and risk of random open world encounters, but unlike sandbox games in a themepark PvP server there aren't nearly as many if any ways to completely ruin a persons play experience.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry but you are showing the same lack of imagination the creators of those "innovative" sandboxes exhibit when they design "innovative" clones of pre-trammel UO in 3D.

There is no reason why a sandbox should be FFA full-loot PvP. In fact here is no reason why a sandbox should have PvP or even any combat at all.

Imagine a mmorpg where you grow things, build and trade with other people to grow and build things. Why not? Crummy farmville did it, now imagine it done a proper way.

Imagine a sandbox mmorpg where all PvP is done in instanced arenas, why not? Or a Dungeon Keeper mmorpg where 1/2 of the game is building your stronghold and the other half is raiding other players'?

These FFA PvP full-loot people are keeping the sandbox sub-genre in a tiny little narrow hole, just like WoW is doing to themeparks. Really the time is nigh for someone to break away from cloning either UO or EQ. I'm sick to death of it, really.

Truer words, my friend, truer words.  I'd most like to see a sandbox game in which the environment/world actually changes. 

You guys actually read my post?

I never said FFA PvP was a good thing and in fact pretty much said that it is the crutch that is holding sandbox games back.

Look at my post history I say often that UO POST Trammel was the best MMORPG ever made and the closest thing to a "true" sandbox and that all supposed sandbox games since have failed because they DIDN'T learn the lesson of Trammel/Felucca.