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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » The replayability on this game is quite awful.

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245 posts found
  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

 
OP  2/05/12 5:32:08 PM#41
Originally posted by DJJazzy
Originally posted by Matt_UK
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by DJJazzy

So you repeat quests and that makes it different than all of the other mmos how?

the fact that they designed the planets to be so linear so phased so uninspired you have no desire to actually go through them multiple times/

Right because all other MMO content is so insprired?

 

Almost all other mmos have better zone design. Rift was very well designed, and LOTRO is pratically epic in scale compared to the dirt quarries that make up most of ToR.

Hmm, I thought Rift felt pretty corridor like as well. I agree about LotRO though.

Rift certainly leads along things.  There is mostly a road to follow that goes to the next hub.  But Rift also had FAR FAR more open space than a SWTOR zone and put rifts into that space.  In addition there is more diversification between the zones in higher levels.  

In Rift you could go from quest hub to quest hub and be fine and play the game that way.  You could also go all over the place and do various novel things in that same zone.   In SWTOR you can't NOT go from quest hub to quest hub.  Its almost impossible.

  User Deleted
2/05/12 5:33:23 PM#42
Originally posted by Terronte

Around level 20 or so I quit doing quests except the class quests. I ran a lot of PvP,FPs, and space missions. Got to about 42 that way...

 

I was thinking of doing this. Only doing the class quests is probably the only way to keep me playing. I wish there were more reasons to group as well, other than Flashpoints and Epics (both pointless). I'm starting to think (for the first time ever) I want to play a game that forces me to group. GW2 maybe?

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2967

2/05/12 5:37:01 PM#43
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by gestalt11

There was some debate before the game released about how replayable the game is, ie. by my definition how fresh and interesting a second or third character is.

 

I have played 4 characters past level 20 on the same faction.  I have played to characters past level 30 and one past level 40.

 

The replaybability is terrible especially if your first character was a stealth class that can skip fights.  Every single character will wind up doing the exact same quests in the same area almsot 90% of the content will be shared extactly the same.  The only 10% difference is the class quests of which you will do roughly 1-2 per level after leve 15 o 16.

 

If you solo the game and stealth past some fight you must do almost every single quests that exists.  If you solo and don't skip you will need to do about 90% of the quests.

Obviously if you grind instances you may do less or possibly none at all.

 

The only variation that exists is in light/dark side choices/companion reactions.  And in the end simply by playing one light side and one dark side you have basically seen all there is to see except the small portion of quests that is the class quest (which is far too slow to develop to justify griding through the same quests a third time).  Compaion reaction is novel and all but in the end only matter from a roleplaying perspective anyway as gifts is the way to go if you have seen it all before.  And frankly that is extremely meager picking unless you are really into the role play part.

The game has many times more replayability than any other MMO I have played on release day.  If you don't want to do the quests over again than don't.  Do instances, group quests, space combat or PVP and you will level quickly doing any of those.  And if all that isn't enough go play the other faction and get a 100% new set of quests.

Honestly what more would it have taken to keep you from complaining?  Because I have a hard time seeing any game company releasing a new MMO with more content than what SW:TOR has today.  It's hands above what EQ2, WoW, LOTR, etc. had at launch.

I haven't played SWTOR but WoW was massive at release. It had a HUGE world to explore and you had multiple leveling paths if you wanted to roll alts. I leveled up 3 chars in vanilla WoW - war, druid and mage - and I wasn't bored even for a second.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 5:38:07 PM#44
Originally posted by gestalt11
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by DJJazzy

So you repeat quests and that makes it different than all of the other mmos how?

the fact that they designed the planets to be so linear so phased so uninspired you have no desire to actually go through them multiple times/

Right because all other MMO content is so insprired?

I have never ever played a AAA mmo that had this bland planet design or had such heavily phased linear zones. It does'nt take much to make it show the dev's put some work into the zones and I don't get the feeling in this game at all

I completely disagree, to me TOR's planets actually look as though an artist designed them, compared to so many games that use copy and pasted terrain over and over again.

Some of the look of parts of the planets are good.  I rather like the background mountains on Aldaraan.  But the feel of the zones is often pretty meh.

 

There is a reason people talk about "look and feel" of an application.  I don't find the "look" of SWTOR zone to be bad (I am sure some do as its highly subjective) but the feel starts to get INCREDIBLY bland.  Painfully so.

 

Seriously by the time I did dromund kaas the 3rd time I could have written a bot to do it all for me and that would be able to play every other persons character on the server and that bot would have behaved 90% to same as most players simply because there are no real options outside of datacron hunting strange paths.

this is my point sorry if i mistyped. The zones themselves and especially the backdrops do look fine and some actually are quite nice.. but the overall "feel" of the zone is so bland and uninspired it just makes you not care to revisit it.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4152

Trolls will be ignored

2/05/12 5:38:27 PM#45
Originally posted by udon

 

The game has many times more replayability than any other MMO I have played on release day.  If you don't want to do the quests over again than don't.  Do instances, group quests, space combat or PVP and you will level quickly doing any of those.  And if all that isn't enough go play the other faction and get a 100% new set of quests.

Honestly what more would it have taken to keep you from complaining?  Because I have a hard time seeing any game company releasing a new MMO with more content than what SW:TOR has today.  It's hands above what EQ2, WoW, LOTR, etc. had at launch.

I feel the same way. If I don't feel like doing the storyline then there is always the side quests. If I don't feel like going solo then I do heroics and flashpoints with others.If I don't feel like doing that then I PVP. If I don't feel like doing that then I do some space. If I don't feel like doing that then I explore for datacrons and resources. Plus there is my alts. I've had no trouble finding something to do in this game.

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

 
OP  2/05/12 5:41:48 PM#46
Originally posted by leojreimroc
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by sanosukex
snip

I have never ever played a AAA mmo that had this bland planet design or had such heavily phased linear zones. It does'nt take much to make it show the dev's put some work into the zones and I don't get the feeling in this game at all

I completely disagree, to me TOR's planets actually look as though an artist designed them, compared to so many games that use copy and pasted terrain over and over again.

I agree with you here.  I think the zones are really well designed.  However, the npcs and mobs inside them are a bit too stagnant for my taste however.  This is not a dealbreaker for me by any stretch, but it is something that I would like to see improved.  More life to the world would be great.

To respond to the OP.  I'm on my 4th alt right now.  On my first char, I almost had to skip entire planets because I was outleveling content.  I skipped most of the bonus content.  I also skipped most of Alderaan, Nar Shadaa Belsavis and a lot of Hoth.  Now on my alts, I won't skip these planets, I will skip those that I've already done.  There's so much content that for me, it's going to take at least 2 alts (probably 3) to see it all.  This is in 1 faction only.  It will take another 2-3 chars to see all the content in the other faction.

Thre are only 3 ways to have skipped that much content.

 

Either you did alot of PvP instances, re-runnung the same heroic dailies, or you did alot of PvE instances.  or some combination of these.

 

I guarantee you did not skip any planet by doing normal quests + space + class quests.

 

I don't see how having a bland and grindy first play through qualifies as "good replayability".  And this is the only thing I have ever seen anybody with the pro-good replayable viewpoint attempt to say.

 

Basically the argument boils down to "do dailies/repeatable content to level, most of which is the same instance over and over" and then you won't have down the meagre and completely linear quest offering.

 

Good replayability doesn't mean you can keep doing it.  It means its fun to do that stuff a second time.  Doing the quest route a second is not different. Its exactly the same up to a factor of about 90% regardless of class.

 

You can level to 50 and never do a quest.  I stated that in my OP.  You can do with just instanced content.  So what?  That is not good replaybility either.  That called grinding.

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/05/12 5:42:00 PM#47
Originally posted by gestalt11
Originally posted by DJJazzy
Originally posted by Matt_UK
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by DJJazzy

So you repeat quests and that makes it different than all of the other mmos how?

the fact that they designed the planets to be so linear so phased so uninspired you have no desire to actually go through them multiple times/

Right because all other MMO content is so insprired?

 

Almost all other mmos have better zone design. Rift was very well designed, and LOTRO is pratically epic in scale compared to the dirt quarries that make up most of ToR.

Hmm, I thought Rift felt pretty corridor like as well. I agree about LotRO though.

Rift certainly leads along things.  There is mostly a road to follow that goes to the next hub.  But Rift also had FAR FAR more open space than a SWTOR zone and put rifts into that space.  In addition there is more diversification between the zones in higher levels.  

In Rift you could go from quest hub to quest hub and be fine and play the game that way.  You could also go all over the place and do various novel things in that same zone.   In SWTOR you can't NOT go from quest hub to quest hub.  Its almost impossible.

 

Rift also had a world merely the size of Outland, even smaller than half of Kalimdor and EK and barely larger than a LotrO region. Personally I thought the rifts were fun the first couple of times but became less fun very quickly and the quests were as boring as they could get. If you talk replayability, sorry, but Rift has even less of that than what you claim TOR has. But, to each their own I guess.
  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 5:46:05 PM#48
Originally posted by gestalt11
Originally posted by leojreimroc
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by sanosukex
snip

I have never ever played a AAA mmo that had this bland planet design or had such heavily phased linear zones. It does'nt take much to make it show the dev's put some work into the zones and I don't get the feeling in this game at all

I completely disagree, to me TOR's planets actually look as though an artist designed them, compared to so many games that use copy and pasted terrain over and over again.

I agree with you here.  I think the zones are really well designed.  However, the npcs and mobs inside them are a bit too stagnant for my taste however.  This is not a dealbreaker for me by any stretch, but it is something that I would like to see improved.  More life to the world would be great.

To respond to the OP.  I'm on my 4th alt right now.  On my first char, I almost had to skip entire planets because I was outleveling content.  I skipped most of the bonus content.  I also skipped most of Alderaan, Nar Shadaa Belsavis and a lot of Hoth.  Now on my alts, I won't skip these planets, I will skip those that I've already done.  There's so much content that for me, it's going to take at least 2 alts (probably 3) to see it all.  This is in 1 faction only.  It will take another 2-3 chars to see all the content in the other faction.

Thre are only 3 ways to have skipped that much content.

 

Either you did alot of PvP instances, re-runnung the same heroic dailies, or you did alot of PvE instances.  or some combination of these.

 

I guarantee you did not skip any planet by doing normal quests + space + class quests.

 

I don't see how having a bland and grindy first play through qualifies as "good replayability".  And this is the only thing I have ever seen anybody with the pro-good replayable viewpoint attempt to say.

 

Basically the argument boils down to "do dailies/repeatable content to level, most of which is the same instance over and over" and then you won't have down the meagre and completely linear quest offering.

 

Good replayability doesn't mean you can keep doing it.  It means its fun to do that stuff a second time.  Doing the quest route a second is not different. Its exactly the same up to a factor of about 90% regardless of class.

 

You can level to 50 and never do a quest.  I stated that in my OP.  You can do with just instanced content.  So what?  That is not good replaybility either.  That called grinding.

I noticed this as well whenever someone argues there's alternate leveling paths it's always well you can just do these or those over and over.. for a PVE game I'd think multiple unique leveling paths would of been designed.. especially since they claimed as much when in development

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 5:47:35 PM#49
Originally posted by smh_alot
 

 

Rift also had a world merely the size of Outland, even smaller than half of Kalimdor and EK and barely larger than a LotrO region. Personally I thought the rifts were fun the first couple of times but became less fun very quickly and the quests were as boring as they could get. If you talk replayability, sorry, but Rift has even less of that than what you claim TOR has. But, to each their own I guess.

agree Rift is pretty small but at least all the zones are connected and nothing aside from dungeons and warzones is instanced or phased and Rift has more quest in the higher zones also..

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

 
OP  2/05/12 5:48:54 PM#50
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by udon

 

The game has many times more replayability than any other MMO I have played on release day.  If you don't want to do the quests over again than don't.  Do instances, group quests, space combat or PVP and you will level quickly doing any of those.  And if all that isn't enough go play the other faction and get a 100% new set of quests.

Honestly what more would it have taken to keep you from complaining?  Because I have a hard time seeing any game company releasing a new MMO with more content than what SW:TOR has today.  It's hands above what EQ2, WoW, LOTR, etc. had at launch.

I feel the same way. If I don't feel like doing the storyline then there is always the side quests. If I don't feel like going solo then I do heroics and flashpoints with others.If I don't feel like doing that then I PVP. If I don't feel like doing that then I do some space. If I don't feel like doing that then I explore for datacrons and resources. Plus there is my alts. I've had no trouble finding something to do in this game.


How many different PvP maps are there?  How many different PvP game types are there?

Not many.  When you are gaining significant XP via PvP.  You are grinding the same content over and over.

Now you may like it.  You may get an adrenaline rush from SWTOR's bad PvP and not feel like its a grind.

 

But its the same thing over and over.  There is no way around that.

 

Of course you can always find something to do in SWTOR.  It just happens to be the same canned stuff over and over.

 

Seriously the whole group content Heroics canard is kind of sad.  Do people realize that many herorics are simply one large room with 4 -6 spawns and a champion mob?  Or just clearing out an area you could run across in 30 seconds?  

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

2/05/12 5:49:39 PM#51

This is something that's becoming more apparent unfortunately...

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

2/05/12 5:56:24 PM#52

The problem I see here:

 

DAILIES ANYONE?

 

DAILIES ANYONE?

 

BUELLER?  BUELLER?

 

Dailies are not replayability.  They are an indication of a lack of content.

People mentioned WOW having several ways of levleing due to the sheer amount of content.  I'll mention POTBS.  Again, a game full of incompetence, but they at least gave you replayability.

You could level entirely on the open sea fighting fleets.  (Provided you had a group and learned how to attack intelligently.)  You could go through the quest hubs.  And the sheer amount of quests was insane.  While up until about level 35 it was a pretty linear path, the final 15 levels had 3 different quest paths to get to 50.  And then if you did all the quests in the game, you were playing for 18 months plus.  And (at least in the first year of the game) you could level through pvp.  You might get ganked a bit, but if you knew how to do the rageboard, you could kill a lot of stupid players.

In this game, there is "one" path to level.  Doing something over and over again is not a path, it is a grind.  Now you may like grinding, and God bless ya.  Yet that isn't "replayability."

So going forward, they really need to add a lot more content for those leveling up.

  UsualSuspect

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1231

2/05/12 5:56:54 PM#53
Originally posted by DJJazzy

So you repeat quests and that makes it different than all of the other mmos how?

In other MMO's, taking Lord of the Rings Online as an example, you can do quests in various places based on what level you are. Like, I could quest in the Lone Lands, but if I got bored there then I could take a horse ride over to the North Downs and do a few quests there instead, or if that got boring I could go to Forochel or Evendim, depending on level.

In TOR you're stuck on one road, there's no roaming from planet to planet or zone to zone, it's a straight path from A to Z when questing. Add that to the fact that the zones are so boring with their lifeless and empty designs, it just breeds boredom from the start. Having to go through it all again in exactly the same way just isn't fun.

You can say you can do Flashpoints and PvP, but what if you want to just quest solo? What if you don't like PvP? What if there's no people around for Flashpoints?

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/05/12 5:59:00 PM#54
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by smh_alot
 

 

Rift also had a world merely the size of Outland, even smaller than half of Kalimdor and EK and barely larger than a LotrO region. Personally I thought the rifts were fun the first couple of times but became less fun very quickly and the quests were as boring as they could get. If you talk replayability, sorry, but Rift has even less of that than what you claim TOR has. But, to each their own I guess.

agree Rift is pretty small but at least all the zones are connected and nothing aside from dungeons and warzones is instanced or phased and Rift has more quest in the higher zones also..

 

It doesn't really matter if the quests are plain and boring and if it means that when you're leveling an alt, you're doing all the exact same quests as well. Sure, in MMO's like LotrO, AoC and SWTOR you're prone to do a lot of the same quests as well, certainly when AoC and LotrO were less than a year out yet, but from all the MMO's Rift was the one that I found had the least replayability of all the MMO's I played, when it came to quest leveling. I'm not saying that people shouldn't enjoy their time in Rift, but when we're talking about replayability, sorry, that claim is just ridiculous imo. Even Aion and LotrO have more, and certainly these days.
  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 6:03:08 PM#55
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by smh_alot
 

 

Rift also had a world merely the size of Outland, even smaller than half of Kalimdor and EK and barely larger than a LotrO region. Personally I thought the rifts were fun the first couple of times but became less fun very quickly and the quests were as boring as they could get. If you talk replayability, sorry, but Rift has even less of that than what you claim TOR has. But, to each their own I guess.

agree Rift is pretty small but at least all the zones are connected and nothing aside from dungeons and warzones is instanced or phased and Rift has more quest in the higher zones also..

 

It doesn't really matter if the quests are plain and boring and if it means that when you're leveling an alt, you're doing all the exact same quests as well. Sure, in MMO's like LotrO, AoC and SWTOR you're prone to do a lot of the same quests as well, certainly when AoC and LotrO were less than a year out yet, but from all the MMO's Rift was the one that I found had the least replayability of all the MMO's I played, when it came to quest leveling. I'm not saying that people shouldn't enjoy their time in Rift, but when we're talking about replayability, sorry, that claim is just ridiculous imo. Even Aion and LotrO have more, and certainly these days.

big difference in rift is class diversity.. in rift I could literally have a differn't play style every 10 levels depending on how I set my souls up.. this alone broke up a lot of the monotimy of repeated quests.. for me gameplay>all if I'm enjoying combat I tend to pay less attention to the other things.. in swtor you are stuck into a single class single role same abilities.. Yes you can respec but choices are so limited you basically are still using all the same abilities. In rift I could juggle my souls around and have an entire new set of abilities to play with. This added so much to the game and is the main reason I stayed on that game for as long as I did.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/05/12 6:11:38 PM#56
Originally posted by sanosukex

big difference in rift is class diversity.. in rift I could literally have a differn't play style every 10 levels depending on how I set my souls up.. this alone broke up a lot of the monotimy of repeated quests.. for me gameplay>all if I'm enjoying combat I tend to pay less attention to the other things.. in swtor you are stuck into a single class single role same abilities.. Yes you can respec but choices are so limited you basically are still using all the same abilities. In rift I could juggle my souls around and have an entire new set of abilities to play with. This added so much to the game and is the main reason I stayed on that game for as long as I did.

 

Hey dude, like I said, if it works for you in Rift, good for you. For other people, it doesn't work for them in Rift and they consider replayability in it a joke. Same for TOR, some'll claim that it has no replayability for them while for others it does. The fun you're having in Rift with souls, the same way others are having their fun with different classes and class stories and quest choices in TOR. For me, the different souls didn't do a thing to improve replayability in Rift when the quest based leveling was 100% the same and just bland (to me), but on the other hand I had a great time in AoC leveling a different character with a different playstyle and Destiny Quests, even if the quests I did were the same.

So, it's good that we have various games that give gamers with different preferences and opinions about replayability what they're looking for, I guess :-)
  Sonictempal

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/10
Posts: 56

2/05/12 6:13:45 PM#57

LOL!!

  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 6:13:59 PM#58
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by sanosukex

big difference in rift is class diversity.. in rift I could literally have a differn't play style every 10 levels depending on how I set my souls up.. this alone broke up a lot of the monotimy of repeated quests.. for me gameplay>all if I'm enjoying combat I tend to pay less attention to the other things.. in swtor you are stuck into a single class single role same abilities.. Yes you can respec but choices are so limited you basically are still using all the same abilities. In rift I could juggle my souls around and have an entire new set of abilities to play with. This added so much to the game and is the main reason I stayed on that game for as long as I did.

 

Hey dude, like I said, if it works for you in Rift, good for you. For other people, it doesn't work for them in Rift and they consider replayability in it a joke. Same for TOR, some'll claim that it has no replayability for them while for others it does. The fun you're having in Rift with souls, the same way others are having their fun with different classes and class stories and quest choices in TOR. For me, the different souls didn't do a thing to improve replayability in Rift when the quest based leveling was 100% the same and just bland (to me), but on the other hand I had a great time in AoC leveling a different character with a different playstyle and Destiny Quests, even if the quests I did were the same.

 

So, it's good that we have various games that give gamers with different preferences and opinions about replayability what they're looking for, I guess :-)

and looking at the upcomming MMOs a lot are trying to blend both these styles and a whole lot more.. which is another reason I don't see a bright future ahead for TOR

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  Sonictempal

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/10
Posts: 56

2/05/12 6:14:47 PM#59
Originally posted by Matt_UK
Originally posted by sanosukex

differn't strokes I guess but I found myself so uninterested in balmorra I actually couldn't even get past the planet on my sith sorc

 

It's even worse when you end up going back with a Rep character 11 levels later. I felt like cutting my throat... lol.

LOL...

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

2/05/12 6:16:07 PM#60
Originally posted by Sonictempal
Originally posted by Matt_UK
Originally posted by sanosukex

differn't strokes I guess but I found myself so uninterested in balmorra I actually couldn't even get past the planet on my sith sorc

 

It's even worse when you end up going back with a Rep character 11 levels later. I felt like cutting my throat... lol.

LOL...

...lmao

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

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