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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The carrot is a lie

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62 posts found
  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

 
OP  2/05/12 2:53:09 PM#1

It's pretty common practice to label most MMO goals as "a carrot on a stick", but I recently came to fully understand why this is so bad. I found myself chasing the carrot, so to speak, because I imagined that I'd be having more fun once I got it. The truth is... I'm not. Once I get the carrot, there's just another one. I somehow keep talking myself into playing more on the prospect of future fun. That future is just a hologram, and the problem is that I never seem to be having fun in the present. Isn't that the point of video games... to have fun right now? School and work are for delayed pleasure. 

 

At some point, the mentality has changed from: I'm going to play to have fun. To: I just need to get this item, or achieve this, and then I can have fun. Is it just me, or is that kind of messed up? You're taking time away from your busy life just to be even busier in a different one. I think what I'm going to start doing from now on is asking myself if I'm actually having fun every 20 minutes or so. If I can't honestly answer 'yes', then I'm not going to keep playing. If everyone adopted this policy, then developers and publishers may have to rethink their game design.

  User Deleted
2/05/12 2:56:24 PM#2

Supposedly new MMOs are designed for that quick fix in a 20-45 minute window, ie being designed for casuals.

People are achievement junkies, thats why they are in everything from Steam to MMOs to xbox, etc. We are being treated like pidgeons pecking in the right places for a reward that sustains us long enough to continue pecking.

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1931

2/05/12 3:45:15 PM#3

I remmeber what happen when I get rr80 in warhammer, finish all the wow raid, get lvl140 in atlantica online.

I quit the game...

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7955

2/05/12 3:50:07 PM#4
Want fun play supermario party on wii witb famely or friend
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10880

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

2/05/12 3:50:55 PM#5

I've gone from chasing the carrot on a stick to playing games that are fun. Of course, that's what I've always done, I just thought that the 'carrot' thing was fun. As it turns out, I didn't enjoy it so much.

I don't think it needs to be taken away completely...character progression through levels or skills is a kind of carrot and I think there's definitely some benefit to having that in games. I just don't think it should be the be all and end all of the game.

This is also why I'll probably never be in an uber raiding guild and that I'll never see top tier content. Maybe after the content is no longer top tier, but certainly not while it's current.

This is what I like about SWToR. The carrot is the story. It may end at the top level, which is fine with me. I'll enjoy it while it lasts, and if BioWare adds more of that kind of content, well, so much the better. :-) If not, I'll be playing Minecraft or Fallout. Maybe Diablo. Or The Secret World. Perhaps Guild Wars. Maybe even Terraria. Who knows? The world is full of stuff to do.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 3:56:42 PM#6

I like GW2 stance having no real carrot per say... hopefully they can pull it off

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  Solarstriker

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/08/11
Posts: 25

2/05/12 4:01:48 PM#7

If you want fun then try Crimsonland:

http://crimsonland.com

  Theodwulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 208

2/05/12 4:19:50 PM#8

I think what I'm going to start doing from now on is asking myself if I'm actually having fun every 20 minutes or so. 

 

  It is the best bet...I learned my leasons in the past.. The Jedi grind ..The old WoW PvP grind ... for what? At this point , many people don't want to grind to max level without some assurances of a fun endgame. Who can blame them?  You do the grind , and next thing you know they remove the grind right after you complete it (that's me twice) and start giving it all away.

 

  Play for fun and fun only

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7955

2/05/12 4:31:55 PM#9
Very true.an hour after login swtor.do we have fun yet.nope .mom are we there yet this is boring.nope 3000mile left to reach disney.how long .5 sleep.mom can we go back home.this isnt fun.(grin)
  TNgal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/12
Posts: 18

2/05/12 5:02:06 PM#10

Variety is the spice of life.

 

Any time anything I'm doing for enjoyment stops being fun, I take a break from it and do something else. Games aren't the only recreation around, though I'm sure it's sacrilege to say so!  :D

 

Camping, fishing, go to the movies, go for walks outside, console games, other games than what is getting to you.  The list is long, and I think sometimes we have all been sucked into a tunnel vision view of what is fun, gotten stuck in a rut, and find ourselves addicted to one pattern.

 

I have never been and never will be into the scheduled raids or events in any game. I have a real life schedule that is mandatory, it's called a job. I play for fun, and while casual players catch a lot of flack from hardcore ones, I suspect we casuals have a much healthier overall mindset. 

 

But, hey, that's just me, my view. Maybe I'm wrong. But it does work for me. Balance, grasshopper, all things in balance. 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

2/05/12 5:07:47 PM#11
Originally posted by TNgal

Variety is the spice of life.

 

Any time anything I'm doing for enjoyment stops being fun, I take a break from it and do something else. Games aren't the only recreation around, though I'm sure it's sacrilege to say so!  :D

 

Camping, fishing, go to the movies, go for walks outside, console games, other games than what is getting to you.  The list is long, and I think sometimes we have all been sucked into a tunnel vision view of what is fun, gotten stuck in a rut, and find ourselves addicted to one pattern.

 

I have never been and never will be into the scheduled raids or events in any game. I have a real life schedule that is mandatory, it's called a job. I play for fun, and while casual players catch a lot of flack from hardcore ones, I suspect we casuals have a much healthier overall mindset. 

 

But, hey, that's just me, my view. Maybe I'm wrong. But it does work for me. Balance, grasshopper, all things in balance. 

Saying maybe I'm wrong doesn't remove the offensiveness of calling people who really like games unhealthy. You chose to do a lot of things over play MMOs and some people didn't. We all exercised our rights to decide how to use our time because we are adults and adults get to do that. Your choices aren't any more objectively good than other people's.

  Rohn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3754

2/05/12 5:15:52 PM#12

One consistent theme of RPGs, going all the way back to paper and pencil, is that they allow you to continually develop or advance your character.  It's an important aspect of this genre.

AoC learned this lesson the hard way, as they attempted to create a game with very little real progression, purportedly to make personal skill more important, and they were torn to pieces for the fact that it was supposed to be an RPG, and there was no real way to progress a player's character or differentiate themselves from other players' characters.  The lack of progression was a motivation-killer to a lot of people.

A focus on "skill" is great in shooters or games treated as e-sports, but runs counter to one of the most basic elements of an RPG.  It's one of the reasons ANet can't get away with charging a subscription fee on either GW or GW2.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  User Deleted
2/05/12 5:23:01 PM#13

Yes the carrot is definitely a lie these days.

 

They simply beat you with the stick like you are a Pinata.. until the money falls out.   Leaving you too dazed and confused to figure out what happened.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

2/05/12 5:30:59 PM#14
Originally posted by Rohn

One consistent theme of RPGs, going all the way back to paper and pencil, is that they allow you to continually develop or advance your character.  It's an important aspect of this genre.

AoC learned this lesson the hard way, as they attempted to create a game with very little real progression, purportedly to make personal skill more important, and they were torn to pieces for the fact that it was supposed to be an RPG, and there was no real way to progress a player's character or differentiate themselves from other players' characters.  The lack of progression was a motivation-killer to a lot of people.

A focus on "skill" is great in shooters or games treated as e-sports, but runs counter to one of the most basic elements of an RPG.  It's one of the reasons ANet can't get away with charging a subscription fee on either GW or GW2.

I try to tell people that RPGs are progression. The game is about the skills of the character not the player, which is why twitch doesn't work, but no one listens.

  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

 
OP  2/05/12 5:55:48 PM#15

A few of the responces seem to think that I'm against progression. That's not the case at all; if it was, then I wouldn't bother with MMOs. I've played RPGs my whole life, and I really enjoy progression in games... at least I used to. Once upon a time, I felt fufiled when I would get something new and shiny. I think the problem these days that is that the devs/pubs want the player to be hooked for years, and not to simply create a game that's fun to progress in. Looking back, some of my favorite RPGs didn't take years to beat; they took maybe a month, and I would replay them after some time. The demand to create something that has to keep someone occupied for years is insane to me. I don't think any game should be played for five years, but games these days are being designed for that purpose. As a consequence, I can't play for a few hours and feel fufilled. Part of the problem is the players, themselves; and I've heard this arguement before. People play the shit out of an MMO on launch, then after a month, complain that there is nothing to do. Game companies respond to this type of feedback by making content take longer. 

 

I saw an interview with some of the Guild Wars 2 devs that really drew my attention to the game. Someone was asking them about a potential exploit with the scaling content that might allow lower level characters to level more quickly. Their responce was that the game is a journey; however players want to get through it is their choice. If they want to sacrifice their experience with the game to level more quickly, then they can have that freedom. I couldn't have hoped for a better answer. Obviously, the exploit in question wasn't game-breaking, but to fix it might have hurt a part of the game that they felt more important. It seems that their priorities sync up pretty well with my own. 

  eyelolled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3096

I am more than some of my parts

2/05/12 5:58:37 PM#16

Is the carrot the lie, or is it really the term game that's misleading?

 

On another note, carrots are a natural sweetener. Try adding them to stews, sauces, soups, and chili. Hell try one in your next cup of coffee!   http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/carrot-cake-recipe.html 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1931

2/05/12 6:02:58 PM#17

well you know gw is a buy to play game.  I dont' think the developer care if players quit, they got their money already.  

Unlike other games, dev really have some cake or carrot that keep chasing because they want your money. 

  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

 
OP  2/05/12 6:06:36 PM#18
Originally posted by eyelolled

Is the carrot the lie, or is it really the term game that's misleading?

 

On another note, carrots are a natural sweetener. Try adding them to stews, sauces, soups, and chili. Hell try one in your next cup of coffee!   http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/carrot-cake-recipe.html 

Then perhaps I should change the topic to "the carrot cake is a lie".  :-P

  TNgal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/12
Posts: 18

2/05/12 6:17:40 PM#19
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by TNgal

Variety is the spice of life.

 

Any time anything I'm doing for enjoyment stops being fun, I take a break from it and do something else. Games aren't the only recreation around, though I'm sure it's sacrilege to say so!  :D

 

Camping, fishing, go to the movies, go for walks outside, console games, other games than what is getting to you.  The list is long, and I think sometimes we have all been sucked into a tunnel vision view of what is fun, gotten stuck in a rut, and find ourselves addicted to one pattern.

 

I have never been and never will be into the scheduled raids or events in any game. I have a real life schedule that is mandatory, it's called a job. I play for fun, and while casual players catch a lot of flack from hardcore ones, I suspect we casuals have a much healthier overall mindset. 

 

But, hey, that's just me, my view. Maybe I'm wrong. But it does work for me. Balance, grasshopper, all things in balance. 

Saying maybe I'm wrong doesn't remove the offensiveness of calling people who really like games unhealthy. You chose to do a lot of things over play MMOs and some people didn't. We all exercised our rights to decide how to use our time because we are adults and adults get to do that. Your choices aren't any more objectively good than other people's.

   I didn't call people who really like games unhealthy. I made the point that we all need balance in our lives, whatever that balance may be. If chasing the carrot makes you feel balanced, nothing wrong with that. If it starts depressing you, frustrating you, or whatever other negative result, then maybe it is time to step back and re-evaluate why you are playing.

 

Adults do have the right to choose.Whether or not the choices are objectively better than other's would depend on an objective observation of the results in that life.  

  kashiegamer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 263

2/05/12 8:17:09 PM#20

Sometimes though, we should't blame the games. For example, in classic single-player RPGs that use DnD rules, people were expected to roleplay a character that they like the most and make use of that class properly. Eventually though people started to min/max their characters, which was okay, since they were expected to play their characters properly. Somewhere along the way though, people just opted knowing which characters have the most min/max potential, and essentially stayed away from their preferred classes and just go on with having the strongest character the game could possibly offer.

 

It can both be the game and the player's fault.

My Blog About Hellgate Global, an ARPG/FPS hybrid MMO:
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