Originally posted by Sorrow

Originally posted by xenogias

I hope Bioware doesnt cave either. They are one of the best at single player RPG's and SWTOR is no diffrent. No, I'm not taking a shot at SWTOR. I knew going into the game it wasnt what I wanted but I did want to see a storyline or two in the first month and I did accomplish that. To me it was worth the box price for it. Bioware did deliver on the storyline.

Rofl kinda funny that you as a fan " not taking a shot at SWTOR ", are saying exactly what we as non-fans say.

SWTOR is a SINGLE PLAYER RPG.

To say they are the fastest growing MMO is a lie based on the MMO part alone who cares about the lie about the sells and sub numbers.

Sorry... no?

I am a REAL fan of SW. have been since the 70's.

I also say that TOR should be about the story. What is wrong with a MMO that delivers a single-player story-driven experience? You still can do all the quest as a MMO group if you want. A choice is nice to have. Choice is good.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Chieftan

You confirmed my point.  PVPers will always find an excuse to hate a game.  WAR was all about PVP and of course, PVPers  hated it.  I don't need the details. 

Most developers would rather just give the mouthbreathers a little playpen to go at each other in.  As soon as they try to do anything more than that, something goes wrong.  Then they fix it and PVPers hate the fix. 

I'm scratching my head trying to remember a MMO that PVPers actually like and I can't think of one.  People who enjoy butting heads all day are hard to keep happy for some reason.

An excuse? I mean it couldn't be that it simply isn't very good in design or anything.

You use Warhammer as proof of this? Really?

I can think of a few games that PvPers enjoyed and reminisce about (to almost annoying degrees I might add) so not sure why it is so difficult for you.

Mouth breathers? You get corpse camped or something while getting accidentally flagged? Sure have a lot of pent up anger directed at PvP players.

Oh really?  Go ahead and list them.  That way I can use them as an example of MMOs that PVPers actually like and I can say "Here's a good PVP MMO.  If you're hardcore PVP, you'll enjoy this".

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by William12

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by William12

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Originally posted by William12

let the hardcore PVP leave when will people get it PVP games are a niche accept it when you cater to PVP you end up with low sub numbers and before any of you say wow shut it wow is a PVE MMO with PVP more as something to do when raids are locked out.   If you count wow as a PVE game whats the highest sub p2p PVP game ?   Any over a mil sub in the west ?   

Cater to PVP you might as well close your game.

GW1 had a strong PVP focus and over a million players

Games like WAR had big numbers at launch, there is a market for better PVP, unfortunatley most of the PVP games are buggy as hell

War flopped HARD.  The market for a big time MMO with 2-3 mil subs doesnt exist for a PVP game period.

There is only one mmo that has 2-3 million subs so your statement is quite stupid really.

No its not that is what any company that wants to invest 200 mil into a game is aiming at taking subs from WOW and retaining them.  Do you think a PVP game would do that ?  No it wouldnt.   This is a business I'm not going to invest 200 mil   on a game that only attracts a small % of the market.

well wow wouldn't have the numbers it has today without the pvp aspect to it. A purely pve mmo will never reach 2-3 million subs..I think you under estimate the amount of pvp'ers that are out there. look at bizzards annual tournaments they're all about competitive pvp.

Now..I do not have stats.....but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of WOW's 4 million or so western subs are not paid by PvP enthusiasts.

Originally posted by Souldrainer 

 Here is where people always lose me.  "The company made up the numbers."  Yeah, OK.  Don't get me wrong.  I hate massive companies, but they are not allowed to just randomly say stuff like "we have 1.7 million active subscribers" and it not be true, without concrete evidence that they can show to share holders.  If they even stretched the numbers a little, the sharks on Wall Street would eat them alive.

I have never seen anyone claiming the 1.7 million number is a lie. It has absolutely nothing to do with the number of paying subscribers though.

If someone asks you how many apples you have and you respond I have X number of apples and oranges, did you lie?

The same thing with EA, instead of stating how many paying subscribers they played the silly word game of counting every single person who bought the game and started playing an 'active subscriber'.

EA's stock is down some 20 percent since the launch of the game. Wallstreet is showing exactly what they think of the future revenue and profits this game will bring to the company.

From the time I played on my roommate's account this past week on a Heavy/Very Heavy server and the mostly empty worlds even during peak times makes me feel the game doesn't even have a million paying subscribers. And why EA wasn't will to come right out and state exactly how many paying subscribers they have.

Originally posted by Sorrow

Originally posted by xenogias

I hope Bioware doesnt cave either. They are one of the best at single player RPG's and SWTOR is no diffrent. No, I'm not taking a shot at SWTOR. I knew going into the game it wasnt what I wanted but I did want to see a storyline or two in the first month and I did accomplish that. To me it was worth the box price for it. Bioware did deliver on the storyline.

Rofl kinda funny that you as a fan " not taking a shot at SWTOR ", are saying exactly what we as non-fans say.

SWTOR is a SINGLE PLAYER RPG.

To say they are the fastest growing MMO is a lie based on the MMO part alone who cares about the lie about the sells and sub numbers.

This lie again? Really?

Originally posted by smitty0356

Any mmo with a very popular IP always sells boxes to people who will not like the mechanics or interpretation of that IP.  When this happens, the first few months usually shows a decline in total subscriptions.

 

In the past, companies have knee-jerked to this trend, and made drastic changes to try to appeal to the initial masses of players, and this has proven disasterous to the long-term success of the MMO.

 

A prime example of this is MXO, where they had to buff and cater to the huge "neo-clone" population, which alienated everyone that was not a "neo."

 

Problem is, the type of player that is quitting after a month, generally can't be retained long term due to conflicts with mmo mechanics, or key problems with the IP.

 

I hope bioware does not try to cater to the "darth paul's" in an attempt to save thousands of subscribers that will likely quit anyway.

You put MXO and SW in the same paragraph LOL,

Also if you want hardcore pvp and not thempark pvp play UO, Darkfall or even MW3..

SW is more PVE then pvp

Originally posted by smitty0356

I hope bioware does not try to cater to the "darth paul's" in an attempt to save thousands of subscribers that will likely quit anyway.

Compared to every other MMORPG I've played, SWTOR is the most soulless game I've ever played. The game feels like some non-gaming marketing drones and suits sat around a meeting room making a list of bullet points from WoW and thought they would make billions.

There is no grand vision for the game, just marketing charts hoping to maxize revenue.

I don't think EA and Bioware will hesitate for a second to make drastic changes.

Originally posted by Vedra

Originally posted by Souldrainer 

 Here is where people always lose me.  "The company made up the numbers."  Yeah, OK.  Don't get me wrong.  I hate massive companies, but they are not allowed to just randomly say stuff like "we have 1.7 million active subscribers" and it not be true, without concrete evidence that they can show to share holders.  If they even stretched the numbers a little, the sharks on Wall Street would eat them alive.

I have never seen anyone claiming the 1.7 million number is a lie. It has absolutely nothing to do with the number of paying subscribers though.

If someone asks you how many apples you have and you respond I have X number of apples and oranges, did you lie?

The same thing with EA, instead of stating how many paying subscribers they played the silly word game of counting every single person who bought the game and started playing an 'active subscriber'.

EA's stock is down some 20 percent since the launch of the game. Wallstreet is showing exactly what they think of the future revenue and profits this game will bring to the company.

From the time I played on my roommate's account this past week on a Heavy/Very Heavy server and the mostly empty worlds even during peak times makes me feel the game doesn't even have a million paying subscribers. And why EA wasn't will to come right out and state exactly how many paying subscribers they have.

 

It was packed everywhere yesterday.  Whenever we came back from a BG there was already another BG popup counting down before the fleet graphics were done loading up.

Honestly no mmo has done well since WOW, for other reasons than not having a good game concept.

The fact is there are more hardcore mmo lovers out there than solo single play rpg players. People are sick of the dull kiddy games and the companies keep making them. They are even taking mmorpgs and trying to turn them into single player console rpgs (TOR) to attract more people. But these people wont stick around long.

You have your handful of people that try to hold up these games hype and say its the best game in the world. But you have more that are against these type of games. I mean why pay 15/month to sit around and play a console game? Wait for content because you have nothing better to do? Repeat dailies and warzones until your keyboard breaks because you enjoy that type of content? You like being led around like a dog on a leash in a mmo because it reminds you of that one night in vegas? I dont get why people want less for what they pay for.

There are a lot of misconceptions concerning sandbox games also that these fanbois try to brainwash other gamers. Even though a sandbox is 100% more open, more content, better community, better social aspect, better crafting, better player based econ, better mechanics, and tons more features. They try to make you think sandboxes are boring and dull because they dont have creativity to make content for themselves, they have to be led around. They make you think that sandboxes are all about open world full loot pvp when in fact they are not in anyways like this. Just to trick people into not playing them so they dont risk their characters. I have played several sandbox games and not forced into pvp one time, only by choice.

The simple fact is, themeparks are ruining the industry of mmorpgs, and turning them in console rpgs and still charge you an arm and a leg for half the content and testing their product. MMO's use to be major fun, lots to do, can dabble in every aspect of life in a game, have your own choices on where to go, how to do something, and everything in between. Themeparks lead you in one direction and make you wait. They force you down narrow paths so you cant explore. They offer no social skills for player content. LFG is almost not needed in most these games. Everything is easy, no skill required, and has an " I WIN" button on everything. This  only makes us more ignorant and doesnt help our children to use their brains, strategy, bartering, and the concept of respecting your community and being apart of it.

Sorry if I offended anyone, i dont care. I am sick of the trend we see here and we need something better. TOR was a joke, with the amount of money and time it was so limiting. Sure it had good eye candy and quests but nothing else. We shouldnt settle for this garbage. TOR could and should have been the game of all games and they screwed the pooch trying to turn it into KOTOR3 on pc.

Originally posted by Chieftan

Oh really?  Go ahead and list them.  That way I can use them as an example of MMOs that PVPers actually like and I can say "Here's a good PVP MMO.  If you're hardcore PVP, you'll enjoy this".

Didn't think I had to repeat another poster but many of them go on and on about Lineage 2, DAOC, UO, etc.

I thought Aion was pretty sweet but the PvE side was awful at higher levels. They have have changed it and added some content though so it could be worthwhile.

Regardless they want a new game just like people that enjoy other forms of gameplay.

Should I tell people that hold PvE in high regards and are disappointed with a lot of games to come out lately that they should go back to EQ? AC?

Why do you even think that would be a valid response or retort?

Originally posted by Vedra

Originally posted by smitty0356

I hope bioware does not try to cater to the "darth paul's" in an attempt to save thousands of subscribers that will likely quit anyway.

Compared to every other MMORPG I've played, SWTOR is the most soulless game I've ever played. The game feels like some non-gaming marketing drones and suits sat around a meeting room making a list of bullet points from WoW and thought they would make billions.

There is no grand vision for the game, just marketing charts hoping to maxize revenue.

I don't think EA and Bioware will hesitate for a second to make drastic changes.

 

 BINGO! 

Originally posted by Chieftan

It was packed everywhere yesterday.  Whenever we came back from a BG there was already another BG popup counting down before the fleet graphics were done loading up.

Depends on the server. Mine sure as hell wasn't packed. They certainly aren't all like the person you quoted but they aren't all like yours either.

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by Chieftan

 

You confirmed my point.  PVPers will always find an excuse to hate a game.  WAR was all about PVP and of course, PVPers  hated it.  I don't need the details. 

Most developers would rather just give the mouthbreathers a little playpen to go at each other in.  As soon as they try to do anything more than that, something goes wrong.  Then they fix it and PVPers hate the fix. 

I'm scratching my head trying to remember a MMO that PVPers actually like and I can't think of one.  People who enjoy butting heads all day are hard to keep happy for some reason.

DAOC, GW1 (although not really an MMO).. lineage 2, Aion, mostly asian games it seems but one thing is for sure PVP has never really worked with only 2 factions ever

Not really true, it worked in SWG, which was more fun to me on the PVP side fo things than DAOC was (pre-cu). Probably had something to do with the fact that you could communicate with the other faction. As well as guild warring.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by Chieftan

 

You confirmed my point.  PVPers will always find an excuse to hate a game.  WAR was all about PVP and of course, PVPers  hated it.  I don't need the details. 

Most developers would rather just give the mouthbreathers a little playpen to go at each other in.  As soon as they try to do anything more than that, something goes wrong.  Then they fix it and PVPers hate the fix. 

I'm scratching my head trying to remember a MMO that PVPers actually like and I can't think of one.  People who enjoy butting heads all day are hard to keep happy for some reason.

DAOC, GW1 (although not really an MMO).. lineage 2, Aion, mostly asian games it seems but one thing is for sure PVP has never really worked with only 2 factions ever

Not really true, it worked in SWG, which was more fun to me on the PVP side fo things than DAOC was (pre-cu). Probably had something to do with the fact that you could communicate with the other faction. As well as guild warring.

never really did any PVP in SWG but I could rephrase two faction pvp never has worked well in any themepark mmo... now "worked well" is subjective obviously because many feel wow's pvp is fun. For me pvp is fun if 1. there is a purpose to fight(IE non-instanced world control points like lineage2) and 2. It's not a constant gankfest were one sides population is VASTLY greater than another.....

SWOTR is just a fail MMO. GW2 or tera are my only hope...

Originally posted by sanosukex

 

never really did any PVP in SWG but I could rephrase two faction pvp never has worked well in any themepark mmo... now "worked well" is subjective obviously because many feel wow's pvp is fun. For me pvp is fun if 1. there is a purpose to fight(IE non-instanced world control points like lineage2) and 2. It's not a constant gankfest were one sides population is VASTLY greater than another.....

I mostly agree here, although AOC had decent PVP for a themepark, but it wasn't faction based, so that's a different story.

In SWG population imbalance could be handled through skill loadout, as it was possible to be ahead of the curve so to speak when it came to character builds. Small scale guilds could win to larger ones based on player skills and loadout. This isn't really possible in the themepark world due to what they call "balance".

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

 

never really did any PVP in SWG but I could rephrase two faction pvp never has worked well in any themepark mmo... now "worked well" is subjective obviously because many feel wow's pvp is fun. For me pvp is fun if 1. there is a purpose to fight(IE non-instanced world control points like lineage2) and 2. It's not a constant gankfest were one sides population is VASTLY greater than another.....

I mostly agree here, although AOC had decent PVP for a themepark, but it wasn't faction based, so that's a different story.

In SWG population imbalance could be handled through skill loadout, as it was possible to be ahead of the curve so to speak when it came to character builds. Small scale guilds could win to larger ones based on player skills and loadout. This isn't really possible in the themepark world due to what they call "balance".

your last description there in a way sounds like what GW2 is doing...

Originally posted by Souldrainer

For now, they are the fastest growing sub-based MMO in history.  So, the decline you are talking about has not happened yet, OP.

YET. How long do you think people will be entertained with Huttball & Voidstar? My goodness. It's all downhill from here.

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

 

never really did any PVP in SWG but I could rephrase two faction pvp never has worked well in any themepark mmo... now "worked well" is subjective obviously because many feel wow's pvp is fun. For me pvp is fun if 1. there is a purpose to fight(IE non-instanced world control points like lineage2) and 2. It's not a constant gankfest were one sides population is VASTLY greater than another.....

I mostly agree here, although AOC had decent PVP for a themepark, but it wasn't faction based, so that's a different story.

In SWG population imbalance could be handled through skill loadout, as it was possible to be ahead of the curve so to speak when it came to character builds. Small scale guilds could win to larger ones based on player skills and loadout. This isn't really possible in the themepark world due to what they call "balance".

your last description there in a way sounds like what GW2 is doing...

In a way I can see that, but in PVP they even the playing field don't they?

Afaik, no MMO since the launch of WoW actually increased subs after launch. SWTOR may be the first, but it's too early to tell at this point, we'll have to wait for the Q1-2012 numbers from EA.