So ok ok, before you start flaming and shouting at me "Themepark/wow fanboi" "s2pid grinder" etc etc, let me explain...

First of all, It's very hard - and actually pointless- to have proper PvE in open world. (and when I mean PvE, I am talking about the AI/boss encounters). Why?

Because open world PvE it merely means PvP. If there is a boss with some VERY strategic and hard tactics to get it down, and you manage to harm him, then another guild may pop, gank you all and continue your work that you struggled to do.. Plus many more frustrating encounters.. but let's take a look at instanced PvE to clearly see my point.

In instanced PvE there are endless possibilities. The logo of ArcheAge is "a game with endless possibilities" why not enforce this to PvE too? In open world PvE there are not endless possibilities, there are just bosses with the stupid tank and spank tactics. Or well, some of them may have "Move from position X to Y, in order to avoid the AoE spell" or "5 minions have spawned, kill them". That's not tactics, that is some stupid encounters to make the boss seem harder. Also, having more HP to the boss (taking some hours to down him) it doesn't mean it's hard, and I think thats obvious. So in open world PvE, there are only 2 possibitilies - tank and spank the boss and there is the only possibility for a hostile guild to appear and try to gank you, if they succeed they win, if they don't you just keep dpsing the boss.

While in instanced PvE, as I said before, there are endless possibilites. Developers can create mobs that have some REAL strategic and hard fights. This does not mean that they will have 1 billion HP and 1 million Attack Damage. From my past experience I can remind of many MMOs and encounters that bosses and mobs had a real meaning and a real fight. Just look a decade ago at Everquest, or World of Warcraft pre-WotLK. Yeah, there were some real and challenging fights. And of course, don't forget Dungeos and Dragons Online - that's how creative people do it. Having dungeons full of puzzles and riddles to solve in order to complete it, combine it with some real strategic tactics and voila! a really fun and strategic experience is created.

To be more precise about what strategic PvE may be, except for the undeniable encounters in Everquest/DDO, just take a look at a game that I think many of you have played - World of Warcraft (BEFORE WRATH OF THE LICH KING). During Vanilla..aah so good days.. It was a great combination of open world/ instanced PvE and crafting gear. For raids you would need 40 people being well organized and know what do to in every fight, and this could take many weeks to succeed it. I can recall non-ending fights with alot of adrenaline and immersion with my fellow guildiies (the greatest experience I had in a MMO). The world bosses too, real lore-wise dragons(mostly) that need hundreds of players to take down. Just unforgettable moments... Or well, in Burning Crusade too.. The most fun and strategic fights I had in PvE ever, every single raid and every single boss had its own encounters (some easier and some harder), grouping with 25 of my fellow guildies and trying for weeks to take down the final bosses of the harder raids..

Such encounters cannot happen in open world bosses, for various reasons, some of which I already explained.Furthemore, don't be close-minded. Instanced PvE does not mean endless grind to acquire gear in order to replace it with the next's raid, even if this is fun for some people ( Actually millions of people) it's not the real goal.

The greatest way for PvE is a combination. Include some real strategic and hard bosses in instanced PvE - a REAL challenge, and include world bosses to the 3rd continent that will not have a big difference from the loot drop regarding instanced bosses.

Lastly, once again, DON'T be narrow minded. Just imagine an instanced raid, which needs many hours in order to complete it, it may require players to have their character there for whole days or weeks (they will be able to log in/log off in that instanced world). Include real puzzles and riddles in these instanced worlds, and face the big challenge. Players e.g. will have to craft some buildings (from the resources inside the raid) to house all the guild while they log off, making a proper use of crafters too! Or even imagine this raid having an ocean and special bosses/ lore adds to face with your ship. Or even imagine having DMs playing with you, yeah some Community manager GMs may give some time with roleplaying guilds to guide them through immersive and mysterious worlds. Or even raids that you will have to complete without evolving combat, just your mind and the strategy. There are endless possibilities, which apparently can't be featured in open world PVE.

Something more to add: Vanilla/TBC raids really got nerfed after wotlk release, so don't expect to face a challenge now. Also after wotlk, raids become really easy and a gear grind.

Also we already know what ArcheAge is going to have. Quoting J.Song "PvE similar to typical sandbox MMOs', something that kills me. ArcheAge already did very in-depth steps to PvP, why not do in PvE too? I was really expecting something WAY more creative from J.Song and his team..

 Disclaimer: I have played most (if not all) sandbox,and not only, MMOs out there. All of them, and typical ones definitely, had very limited (if not any) PvE at all. Obviously, this is not endless possibilities.

Also I am a Darkfall and DAoC vet my self and I am a lot into harsh PvP, and I do like it - but in the say way I do like "harsh" instanced PvE.

Also have a look at Ryzom's dungeon maker to see how ultimate sandbox can be connected with instanced dungeons.

 Also have to say once again, stop being close minded! Many MMOs today are heavily focused on PvP and as a result they discourage PvErs from playing the game and they quit! BUT! There are many ways that people can think of to make that players STAY!

 In my opinion, MMOs today have reached the bottom of in-depth on PvP (I think even from the days of Ultima Online) but this HAVE NOT happened in PvE yet! There are many ways to enhance it and use it that to EMPOWER the Open world PvP!

PvErs are a very big playerbase of MMOs today, and they definitely can help creating a breathing open world full of PvP. If we give them REAL PvE, REAL FUN AND CHALLENING PvE there are ways to combine it with PvP and use their effort to enhance open world. I will just give an example, imagine players having a real, strategic fight with the final boss of an instanced raid. Were HARD and TACTICFUL encounters are involved, and when the boss dies players will be able to skin him or gather some "protected" materials. Then these materials could be used to empower the crafts or their guild castle/village!  Of course these materials would be gatherable to open world too! Yeah, you might say "People would just PvE to get them" - BUT THIS HAD TO DO WITH DEVELOPERS THE IDEAS and how the implement it! If they have a really challenging and strategic PvE fight then it would be VERY HARD to acquire them (harder than open world)! Then why would people try to gather them in instanced raids? BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE LIKE PVEing that way! GIVE them a challenge, give them a reward and enhance open world pvp. There are many many other ideas in order to balance and combine them, dont be close minded. INSTANCED PvE today in themeparks is just a meaningless grind for gear etc. no effort, no real fun, no challenge. THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES! TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE PVE PLAYERBASE, ENHANCE OPEN WORLD PVP WITH THEM, THERE ARE WAYS, DONT BE NARROW MINDED.

(Sorry for any language misunderstandings and the wall of text)

There are plenty of world bosses, and in my opinion, ArcheAge tries to be a MAINLY PvP oriented game.

If it tries to go down that road (instanced PvE), then it will never truly satisfy MMO "locusts" who will eat up the content too fast and whine about how the game isn't finished.

The "endgame" in ArcheAge is PvP - and the whole concept revolves around it - sieges, naval warfare, and even the world bosses I think.

The game tries to revive the competitivness in skill and strategy - not the competitivness in "who has the greatest purplez" - which MMORPG genre has come to after WoW.

I think the pvp and pve endgame argument is valid on both sides.  But being a pvp junkie I will say that it is refreshing that the developers are focusing on pvp incorporated in their pve (for example world bosses).  Bring back the hard work!  Bring back the feelind of accomplishment when you down world bosses that most guilds cannot even get close to touching!

I am intrested in this game. There are enough instance shit who call themselves MMORPG's but aren't and not much of the real ones like these.

How about a mix of both. have some instanced pve and some over land pvp. God forbid if there are gear sets in the game but if there are have some of the gear come from instances and some from over world. make people do both IF they want the full sets. If not they can mix and match from droped/crafted gear.

I just hope theres nore to PVEing then just a dreaded gear treadmill and faction grind.

I think the idea of farming gear in a instance safely is way past dead. I mean, People want change? well this could be that change.

I think an Aion type of system would be interesting, Have a bosses loot be distributed by which ever faction does the most damage to it.

split your raid into 2 groups. Have guild pvp'ers guard the pve'ers Enganging the boss,
This will lead to unpredictable and volatile boss encounters. And I beleve the best thing is its entirely player driven and non scripted.

Originally posted by Manasu

 Because open world PvE it merely means PvP. If there is a boss with some VERY strategic and hard tactics to get it down, and you manage to harm him, then another guild may pop, gank you all and continue your work that you struggled to do.. Plus many more frustrating encounters..

Sounds like fun to me :)

Instances, especially the ones you are talking about i.e taking hours to complete, take people away from the open world which is what ArcheAge is all about.

I think there's enough games you can play if you want to spend 4 hours in an instance with a party. No need to ruin one of the only promosing open world pvp games to arrive in years rather than try create some form of hybrid like Aion where they added your long instances but then tried to get people to open world pvp. A game needs to define itself rather than be just one messed up blob trying to cater to every little group and Jake Song is boldly doing that.

Thank you all for your answers, and firstly I have to say that you'd better read my post before you actually answer. Also I am not saying to replace open world PvE with instanced, just introduce the perfect combination, and don't take some things so close-minded, there are unlimited and meaningful ways to have instanced PvE.

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Originally posted by wizyy
There are plenty of world bosses, and in my opinion, ArcheAge tries to be a MAINLY PvP oriented game.
If it tries to go down that road (instanced PvE), then it will never truly satisfy MMO "locusts" who will eat up the content too fast and whine about how the game isn't finished.
The "endgame" in ArcheAge is PvP - and the whole concept revolves around it - sieges, naval warfare, and even the world bosses I think.
The game tries to revive the competitivness in skill and strategy - not the competitivness in "who has the greatest purplez" - which MMORPG genre has come to after WoW.

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Dude, dude don't take instanced PvEs so close-minded. Of course most of themeparks today feature them just for the purplez or gear score etc. This is just bullshit, I definitely agree. But there is a whole new and very creative system that it could be introduced in ArcheAge concerning instanced-PvE. It doesn't have to be a mindless fight to acquire gear. It could be a completely strategical fight to have some real fun with your fellow guildies, while the reward doesn't destroy the open-world experience. Of course this requires revolutionary and fresh ideas from developers (ok, and money too). Also, some people find competiviness way more interesting in PvE than in PVP (I'm not of them, but why exclude there players from a game with endless possibilities)..

And no, ArcheAge is not going to be a mainly PvP game. Quoting J.Song - Archeage will have the community of Ultima Online, the PvE of a typical sandbox and the PvP from Lineage. While the endgame in Archeage will be around sandbox, and this has maaaaany meanings, including PvE too (take a look at Ryzom dungeon maker for example).

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Originally posted by TheHavok

 

I think the pvp and pve endgame argument is valid on both sides. But being a pvp junkie I will say that it is refreshing that the developers are focusing on pvp incorporated in their pve (for example world bosses). Bring back the hard work! Bring back the feelind of accomplishment when you down world bosses that most guilds cannot even get close to touching!

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Very nice and was kinda expecting such a post. Well see TheHavok, I am a pvp junkie my-self , Darkfall and DAoC vet my-self I am really into this. Once again, I am not saying that instance PvE must replace the world bosses. I'm talking about the perfect combination, something that undoubtedly requires hard work from developers. But MMOs is all about having fun, and how those guilds that cannot even close to touching a boss will have fun? And how a guild that downs such a boss manages to do it? Obviously that guilds has the elitist gear that somehow collected, either from material grinding or whatever the game feature. Every player and guild must have fun in a game with endless possibilities, of course without this destroying the main goal of ArcheAge - aka open world experience.

I also had many experiences with open world bosses and their defeat too. But I could have a simillar feeling when I downed with my guild one of the hardest and most strategical bosses in instanced PvE.

mod edit

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Originally posted by kantseeme
How about a mix of both. have some instanced pve and some over land pvp. God forbid if there are gear sets in the game but if there are have some of the gear come from instances and some from over world. make people do both IF they want the full sets. If not they can mix and match from droped/crafted gear.

 

 

I just hope theres nore to PVEing then just a dreaded gear treadmill and faction grind.

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Yeap, pretty much what I'm saying, a perfect combination would please everyone.

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Originally posted by Sluske

 

Sounds like fun to me :)

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Yeah definitely, I also find that fun too. Always have to be concious and aware in order to defeat hostile players when the pop, sure. But a "game with endless possibilities" should undoubtedly feature PvE, challenging and real PvE, that appeals to many players out there.

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Originally posted by PsychoPigeon
Instances, especially the ones you are talking about i.e taking hours to complete, take people away from the open world which is what ArcheAge is all about.

 

 

I think there's enough games you can play if you want to spend 4 hours in an instance with a party. No need to ruin one of the only promosing open world pvp games to arrive in years rather than try create some form of hybrid like Aion where they added your long instances but then tried to get people to open world pvp. A game needs to define itself rather than be just one messed up blob trying to cater to every little group and Jake Song is boldly doing that.

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Well well wait bud, I notice a lot of misinformation here. First of all, about my points, I am not saying instanced have to be never-ending. Featuring hard and challenging instanced doesn't mean that they must last 10 hours. But they should also introduce such instances, cause if players have fun in such, why not please them? (as long as these instances doesn't destroy open world ofcourse).
Secondly, no no, there aren't really any games out there to spend 4 hours in a quantity PvE zone, grouping with people and doing 4 hours the same boring grind (smth most MMOs do) is something that I strictly dislike. Although, there are already many quantity open world PvP mmos out there, and actually ArcheAge isn't really going to be one of them. Open world is just going to be part of ArcheAge (50% sandbox, and pvp mostly happening in 3rd continent).

Whatsoever J.Song stated that ArcheAge is going to be a total hybrid in order to please as many as players they can manage to.

Instancing has been the worst thing that ever happened to the genre since WOW was made.

While i understand what you are saying, i don't see how much could they innovate instanced PVE...

IMO Instancing has no place on ArcheAge, the only instancing it has are battlegrounds, and according to some beta testers, nobody uses them because open world pvp has more rewards.... well i hope they remove those instanced BG's for the next beta.

The more instancing a game has, the less people there are in open world pvp = bad

Games need to be consistent.

Take SWTOR for example, it focuses on single player gameplay, so what do they do? they instance everything, even the open world parth with shards, so it always feels like a single player rpg with people running around.

ArcheAge focuses on open world, so any kind of instancing is BAD for this game.

 

 

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Originally posted by Sluske

 

Sounds like fun to me :)

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Yeah definitely, I also find that fun too. Always have to be concious and aware in order to defeat hostile players when the pop, sure. But a "game with endless possibilities" should undoubtedly feature PvE, challenging and real PvE, that appeals to many players out there.

 

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I don't mind it really, I get what you're sayin. I'm still waiting on a game wich can pull off a perfect PVP/PVE balance. I think it's hard to do. If you have instanced PVE with uber loot, people will grind it. When people start grind that, people will stop beeing out in the world. And uber loot is needed for PVE like that. Then you'll have the LFG/LFR button and people hanging out in a lobby. maybe strict PVP/PVE servers are the only way to go.

In respect to instanced pveing one of my problems with it is you take people out of the world. If there busy farming instance A B C D E F and G then theres fewer people that inhabit the game world its self. Same goes for instance PvP. I Wish they would remove that all together but dont think that will happen. And i cant see a way to keep players in the game world while having instanced PvE. If they can find a way then im all for it.

You could lock encounters to a raid so other people cannot attack your target.

If you add a lot of meaningful content that does not overshadow other content, you got yourself a splendid MMO.

Don't make boss encounters drop crafted items. Make them drop hard to get materials to make some nice gear.

You could give them some good gear but don't lump it as a set. Give the items properties that make them stand out from the rest. Situational gear is also good. 

Lumping everything as set gear is lazy.

 Also have to say once again, stop being close minded! Many MMOs today are heavily focused on PvP and as a result they discourage PvErs from playing the game and they quit! BUT! There are many ways that people can think of to make that players STAY!

 In my opinion, MMOs today have reached the bottom of in-depth on PvP (I think even from the days of Ultima Online) but this HAVE NOT happened in PvE yet! There are many ways to enhance it and use it that to EMPOWER the Open world PvP!

PvErs are a very big playerbase of MMOs today, and they definitely can help creating a breathing open world full of PvP. If we give them REAL PvE, REAL FUN AND CHALLENING PvE there are ways to combine it with PvP and use their effort to enhance open world. I will just give an example, imagine players having a real, strategic fight with the final boss of an instanced raid. Were HARD and TACTICFUL encounters are involved, and when the boss dies players will be able to skin him or gather some "protected" materials. Then these materials could be used to empower the crafts or their guild castle/village!  Of course these materials would be gatherable to open world too! Yeah, you might say "People would just PvE to get them" - BUT THIS HAD TO DO WITH DEVELOPERS THE IDEAS and how the implement it! If they have a really challenging and strategic PvE fight then it would be VERY HARD to acquire them (harder than open world)! Then why would people try to gather them in instanced raids? BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE LIKE PVEing that way! GIVE them a challenge, give them a reward and enhance open world pvp. There are many many other ideas in order to balance and combine them, dont be close minded. INSTANCED PvE today in themeparks is just a meaningless grind for gear etc. no effort, no real fun, no challenge. THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES! TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE PVE PLAYERBASE, THERE ARE WAYS, DONT BE NARROW MINDED.

if you don't like PvP messing up your PvE then don't play the game. I'm not going to bother with this game because of it but I don't expect or want every game to be the same. If the game doesn't get a huge following because of it's mechanics, then who cares, but the last thing I want to see is more games ending up being the same.

Originally posted by eyelolled

if you don't like PvP messing up your PvE then don't play the game. I'm not going to bother with this game because of it but I don't expect or want every game to be the same. If the game doesn't get a huge following because of it's mechanics, then who cares, but the last thing I want to see is more games ending up being the same.

Aaah dude, real PvP comes from PvE. Of course I want PvP to mess up with PvE, then it gets a point. Otherwise is just a meaningless arena with griefers and gankers...read my post. PvE players must and can enhance PvP!

Honestly I don't see why strategic battles can't be done in an Open world environment. Yeah sometimes you may get wiped out by other guilds but that risk makes it more fun IMO.   If the developers put more time into the coding  AI instead of  working on graphics then things could work..  

I don't know why devs haven't made aggro more complex like how it was in FFXI.  You can aggro by sound, sight, magic, smell there might be other Its been a while since I played.  Every other game its all aggro by if you get to close to them. So lets say youre fighting a boss and some other group comes but the boss doesn't like how some of the other people smell or they use a particular magic spell the boss dont' like he'd start attacking them. The tables have been turned , you can either chose to fight the boss , the other guild, or both.  

I  enjoy Open PVP better than Instanced PVP as well because you never know when your next battle will be and how many you will have to fight.   Its those variables that make things exciting to me, instanced stuff can be fun but after a while it gets borring cuz there are no variables like the guild sneaking up and trying to kill you. 

Originally posted by Manasu

Originally posted by eyelolled

if you don't like PvP messing up your PvE then don't play the game. I'm not going to bother with this game because of it but I don't expect or want every game to be the same. If the game doesn't get a huge following because of it's mechanics, then who cares, but the last thing I want to see is more games ending up being the same.

Aaah dude, real PvP comes from PvE. Of course I want PvP to mess up with PvE, then it gets a point. Otherwise is just a meaningless arena with griefers and gankers...read my post. PvE players must and can enhance PvP!

OK, I thought you meant you wanted instances to avoid greifers, but really you think PvE'ers need to play the game so there is a decent player base. Or is it because you want the PvE fodder for PvP?

I see absolutely no reason to introduce instanced PvE. From what I've seen the game focuses on adventure, if there are more encounters like the kraken and that creature that attacked some kind of castle (it had walls if I remember correctly, can't be bothered to find a link right now) then awesome. I honestly hope we don't see more threads like this when the game gets a publisher here cause this is what drives devs to destroy their own games. If the game introduces instanced PvE with equal gear as the OP suggests then that's it. It will be no different than the shit that has overflooded the market today.