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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » A successful SWTOR is bad for the industry

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250 posts found
  TheCrow2k

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 956

2/01/12 9:03:21 PM#41
Originally posted by Strayfe
-SNIP-

This means essentially that the next five years will be the same as the previous five years.  The only thing we are going to see is more homogenized, linear themepark games.  SWTOR needed to fail to send a message to the industry, and apparently it hasn't.  When we needed to speak with our wallets, we did, but we sent the wrong message. 

-SNIP-

 

 

Agreed, SWTOR was not only dissapointing to me as an MMO experience but also its continued success is going to generate yet more clones, the next 5 years will be The attack of the Clones and ongoing Clone Wars.

 

Worse still anyone who does try to break out of this clone mould is going to struggle to find a publisher to push their game as it will be seen as "too risky".

  Tiller

Guide

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 4966

2/01/12 9:03:25 PM#42
I hated MMO back in the day. Games like Diablo 1-2 were more my flav with the clicky combat action. I thought the combat in other RPGs and MMOs was slow and boring looking. This was until I found SWG; which back in 2003-2004 hid the combat dice roles and made combat feel cool. SWG had almost everything I was looking for. I was willing to overlook the lack of content even.  I figured it would at least get me by and give me some skills I could take to WoW when it launched; I had no intention on staying in SWG.
 
Then I tried WoW and was disappointed with the mechanics of RPG combat yet again (Must face Target) I got used to it all, endured the torture of RPG style combat for the sake of gaming with other folks and played many MMOs after the demise of galaxies to find that one that just felt right to play. I even tried the FPS style MMos and they just seemed forced to say the least. Sad to say I have not found that perfect MMO. SWTOR almost had it with the combat, but the lack of freedom is a deal breaker. I'm starting to really think maybe MMOs are just not for me anymore.
 
 Oh and can I say I agree with the OP. Games will get more and more simplistic and developers will get off on not having to put any real creativity  into them or allow player expression knowing that folks will still shell out $15 per month for their games. “hey I can make a game that should be free to play and still charge fools monthly for this, and they pay it willingly oh for the lolols”


SWG pre-cu vet, elder Jedi, elder BH -Bloodfin

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10377

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

2/01/12 9:08:01 PM#43


Originally posted by TheCrow2k


Originally posted by Strayfe
-SNIP-
This means essentially that the next five years will be the same as the previous five years.  The only thing we are going to see is more homogenized, linear themepark games.  SWTOR needed to fail to send a message to the industry, and apparently it hasn't.  When we needed to speak with our wallets, we did, but we sent the wrong message. 
-SNIP-
 


 
Agreed, SWTOR was not only dissapointing to me as an MMO experience but also its continued success is going to generate yet more clones, the next 5 years will be The attack of the Clones and ongoing Clone Wars.
 
Worse still anyone who does try to break out of this clone mould is going to struggle to find a publisher to push their game as it will be seen as "too risky".



It will take five years for any ToR copycat MMOs to come into existence. The four years and 364 days between now and then could be filled with all kinds of weird things that have nothing to do with ToR.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
2/01/12 9:18:52 PM#44

OP you have started a war with this, Zit are popping all over the place.

 

on topic, While its true what you say, you will notice that a lot of the people coming to swtor are new to MMOs, they are just fans of SW logo. So to them its new and probably innovative, but you will see a bit of the hardcore fan base moving on, so just you know give it 6 months, it might improve it might not.

 

However I would like to add, when a game is released its a finished product, I mean it has bugs here and there and are patched for free, but the bugs in this game came from betas, a good chunk of them, and then they say that we are charging for content and patches and fixes.  For 200mil this is truely a let down in the state it was launched.

  Jerek_

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/08/04
Posts: 398

2/01/12 9:31:32 PM#45

I am enjoying TOR, so I'll bite.  You should check out No Reservations, specificially the Chicago episodes.  You will see that McDonalds didn't kill quality hotdogs at all, they are in fact better than ever. 

The problem with your analogy is that you seem to assume that, without Mcdonalds, all those hamburger people would have been hotdog connisseurs-  they wouldn't have been.  UO and EQ were not going to have 10 million subscribers if only WoW hadnt happened, the market for those games was, and is, niche.  that means small market money- as in, no AAA graphics and sound and whatever.  Personally, I dont think thats a terrible thing, because I dont think you have to have big money or huge numbers of players to have a great mmorpg.

 

 

  Lidane

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 2315

2/01/12 9:44:17 PM#46
Originally posted by Draemos

No.

A lack of success means less investors in the industry.  There is no such thing as a successful MMO being bad for the industry.  For instance, people run at the mouth about WoW being bad for the industry... the only way this industry has so many investors and new games popping up is because of WoWs success.

It's sad how poorly people actually understand how industry works.  

EXACTLY.

If World of Warcraft had tanked when it came out, the MMO genre would have stayed a fringe niche and likely would not have had the same lognevity it's had these past 7+ years. For its time, vanilla WoW was a big risk. If it had failed and not overtaken EverQuest at the time, finding people willing to invest in the MMO genre long-term would have been a hell of a lot harder. 

Failed games = lack of investment from venture capitalists = dead genre. A fair number of the games on this site wouldn't exist if enough games had failed in the early days of MMOs. Whether people here like it or not, WoW's success is why we still HAVE games to play, since people are willing to put millions on the line to get a game up and running. It showed investors that there is a market and that it should be explored. 

 

  Kalmarth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 457

2/01/12 9:51:11 PM#47
Originally posted by Strayfe

In any industry, no matter what it is or whom it caters to, as consumers, we should be encouraging CHOICES AND VARIETY.  The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective.  THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great, and they wonder why everyone can't, or does not want to see how great the game is.  Meanwhile, the haters are looking at it from a broader perspective of what a successful SWTOR means.

So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.

Really got to love the Haters patting themselves on the back for just wanting to stop people having fun.

So if you like it STOP your messed up your making the gaming world a bad place.

If you hate it Spread that hate tell people that they have to stop playing, make them hate it too, or more game that they may like will be made and we cant have that.

 

  Lidane

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 2315

2/01/12 9:54:00 PM#48
Originally posted by Kalmarth

So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.

Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.

If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.

  StoneRoses2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/26/12
Posts: 21

2/01/12 9:55:11 PM#49
Originally posted by DaRoamer

To summarize:

1 - Successful things are copied

2 - People like different things than me

3 - People who like different things than me should like the things I like

Stating the obvious! I love it!

  Tiller

Guide

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 4966

2/01/12 10:07:22 PM#50
Sometimes when I read things on the internet I find myself saying "who are these people in the outside world?"  Based on some of the replies in this thread I imagine folks I would not want to meet and have an intelligent discussion with.


SWG pre-cu vet, elder Jedi, elder BH -Bloodfin

  Seilan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/04
Posts: 802

"Blue, blue."

2/01/12 10:23:45 PM#51
Originally posted by DaRoamer
Originally posted by alacres
Originally posted by bossalinie
"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."

Am I doing it right?

No. Try actually reading and comprehending the thread and then reply.

 

OP, I commend and agree with the sentiment of your thread, but I'm thinking your points will be swooshing over the heads of most people that come to it. Reading isn't a strong suit, in the US at least.

Ah yes, the "I'm smarter than everyone else and therefore have better taste" argument.  A classic, certainly.

I don't really see how suggesting that someone read the original OP before making baseless assertions about the topic is the same as implying that "I'm smarter than everyone...", but please, keep the pointless rhetoric coming if it's fun for you.

  DeaconX

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3072

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

2/01/12 10:26:42 PM#52
Originally posted by pierth

OP, you can't teach people to have higher standards.

 

Hahaha


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  Dren_Utogi

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1468

2/01/12 10:30:36 PM#53
Originally posted by Lidane

fringe niche

 

Uusually created for th love of the genre, not the dollar bill. People who develope games to sell, usually sell shallow, uninspired carbon copies of games that have alreat been released.

 

Did you know Star Trek Online has Companions  ?

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/01/12 10:31:44 PM#54
From what I glanced, it seems that quite a lot of people read the OP and got the gist of it, only a number of those people just didn't agree with the point he wanted to make, just like there were others that did agree.


I'm gonna repost my former comment on the OP, since I didn't really get a reply of him on the points I made as a counterpoint.


Originally posted by smh_alot
Aaw man, this is way too black & white thinking for my taste. Although I admit that there are probably quite some people who think like that and that's the reason they keep bashing TOR and BW so much even if they're not playing it at all (besides ofc being bored and forums the main means of entertainment usage for their spare time :D)


But use your common sense: one doesn't exclude the other. Look at this year: the majority of MMO's that come out this year are no traditional themepark MMO's at all, and they're pretty solid looking titles as well. Like any market, there's room for competition if the products are compelling enough, no particular need for a whole market to fail and burn for varied products to emerge, as clearly shown for MMO's this year and next.


... unless you want to tell me that MMO's like GW2, TSW, ArcheAge, Firefall, TERA, Blade&Soul, Planetside 2 and later on Copernicus, World of Darkness, Undead Labs' zombie MMO, Continent of the Ninth, Salem, EQ Next and so on is not the variety of choices you're looking for?

  Seilan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/04
Posts: 802

"Blue, blue."

2/01/12 10:35:18 PM#55
Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by Kalmarth

So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.

Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.

If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.

Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.

I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/01/12 10:36:11 PM#56
Originally posted by I_Return
Originally posted by Lidane

fringe niche

 

Uusually created for th love of the genre, not the dollar bill. People who develope games to sell, usually sell shallow, uninspired carbon copies of games that have alreat been released.

 

Did you know Star Trek Online has Companions  ?

 

As good as everything has been done in some form, one way or the other, especially if a genre exists for a while already.
  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/01/12 10:40:29 PM#57
Originally posted by alacres
Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by Kalmarth

So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.

Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.

If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.

Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.

I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.

 

The OP has already been proven wrong by reality, his argument caught up by actual facts. Why are you only picking out posts where you can resort to insulting other posters, instead of actually contributing constructively to the discussion that's being held? Read my other post, and let's see what you have to reply on it, now that'd be a more concrete contribution to the discussion instead of resorting to overused analogies and ad hominems >.>
  omome

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 207

2/01/12 10:42:10 PM#58
Originally posted by alacres
Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by Kalmarth

So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.

Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.

If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.

Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.

I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.

However his assertion that McDonald's success keeps better retraunts from opening is flawed.

  Dren_Utogi

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1468

2/01/12 10:49:26 PM#59
Originally posted by omome
Originally posted by alacres
Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by Kalmarth

So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.

Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.

If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.

Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.

I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.

However his assertion that McDonald's success keeps better retraunts from opening is flawed.

actually, it doesn't because everytime a mccdonalds opens, it brings property value down, which in turns cripples the encomy of an area and makes it a low income region with in a block of it .

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  Strayfe

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/30/07
Posts: 180

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
"Nobody provokes me with impunity."

 
OP  2/01/12 10:52:44 PM#60

Too many posts to reply directly to, so let me clarify my major points.

1) I don't -hate- the theme park style of game.  I subbed to WoW for a good 3 years and enjoyed my time there.  It's not my favorite MMO, however, that title belongs to FFXI.

2) I don't want theme parks to stop being made, period.  I do however want more variety.  There are enough theme parks out there right now and in development that I have no qualms saying to the theme park fans, you HAVE your games, give US a turn for once.

3) The MMORPG genre is already a success in the minds of investors.  To the people saying investors will ignore MMORPGs if SWTOR fails, that's simply not true.  There are still too many profitable games out there.  If, however, a theme park game with that kind of budget and recognition fails, it may finally make investors realize that the way to profit is to butt out and let game developers, who know MORE about what people want to play, make the games.

4) Someone talked about how the hamburger connoisseurs wouldn't necessarily be hot dog lovers if the hamburger stands never opened.  You're right, however, who's to say that the same people addicted to hamburgers wouldn't love a taco more?  Wouldn't love a REALLY GOOD hot dog?  We will never find out.

5) AAA games aren't being made as a labor of love anymore.  The attitude of the average developer used to be 'if I create a good product, and a great experience, people will buy it, and I will make money'.  The attitude of the average developer now is: 'How can I generate the most money, with the least amount of effort?  How can I exploit the market for my own benefit?  How can I heard these sheep (gamers) into MY pen so I can shear the wool off of them?'  It's a complete paradigm shift, and they are getting away with it, because as end users, we are allowing it.

6) Here's some food for thought.  As gamers, do we benefit from the genre being mainstream?  Do we truly benefit from our entertainment being used as a medium to line pockets?  I wonder.  Big budget movies don't often win the Academy Award.  If our genre stays 'fringe' or 'niche', who's to say that doesn't actually result in better games?

 

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