Originally posted by nomatics856

I enjoyed SWTORS single player aspect a lot more than its mmorpg aspect, and when playing dungeons and PVP "The group aspect" of the game it just felt dumbed down and not that interesting at all, combat was delayed and frustrating, laggy to all hell, buggy. It made me wonder do people enjoy this? If people wanted their Co-Op fill couldnt they just play a FPS or some free dungeon crawler?

 Let me stop you right there, there wasn't enough of an mmorpg aspect for it to accurately be called that yet, maybe is six months.

I can see if the game was Everquest/ UO where almost all exploration is done in a party or group, strong social interaction with other players, overcoming 80% of the games challenges with other players. You know "Social Interaction", then I  can understand playing and paying for a mmorpg every month.

 From what i've seen it does have social interaction if you call waiting around in the large cities for a group to form and run off to do a dungeon social interaction. To me it looks too much like what's happening in today's World of Warcraft.

But in Swtor and not just swtor but other current "Next gen" mmos as well I find myself soloing 75-80% of the game and the other 20% of group content is either raids, a few dungeons or PVP, All instanced give me the loot now types.

 

So why do people still play these games? Single Player rpgs have way more social interaction nowadays then these so called mmorpgs, better and more story, more dialog, no need to pay to play every month. Etc etc etc.

I think the bigger question is this, why are developers stuck in this loop, why can't they develope games that are more engaging ALL throughout the game instead of just focused at the end, why can't they reverse the problems of gear treadmills as the only means of progression for every character and develope games that are fun without the need to show off shinies all the time or require people who are new to have to do exactly what everyone else is doing to remain competative? Don't they know that's boring?

1. If you don't like it go play something else.
2. If you no longer play then your opinion doesn't matter.
3. If you find fault with this title then you must be by default a hater.

The above listed logical fallacies do not in any way invalidate why people don't like being lied to, i.e. having a complete mmo experience AT LAUNCH, and they further do not provide an adequate defense for a company's bad management practice no matter the company or the IP.

Originally posted by OberanMiM

Originally posted by TJixlee

just leave we dont want you here if you dont like MMOs lmao

They honestly need to split the genre. Those that focus on community should be called MMORPGs. Those that focus on lobby based gameplay and are heavily instanced should be called MMOs. Shuttled from one place to the next with a story revolving around you (but everyone else just the same) leaves too little to the imagination to truely be called an RPG imho (especially compared to PnP RPGs where the roots of the RPG are)

In that aspect i love MMORPGs but hate MMOs

This solves absolutely nothing. If WoW and everything after that would have been called WTFO's, developers instead of developers sayiing "I see more profit in WoW's style of MMORPGs," but rather "I see more profit in WFTO's than MMORPGs." 

This genre...or rather the older vets in the genre needs to look outside their own homes for once. The mass desires the jack of all trades, masters of none. Ever wonder why BF3, CoD, AA3 and other shooters with MMO elements are thriving moreso than the failed realistic shooters ArmA and Operation FP? How about the older school RTS players who rage about bringing back extremely long and tedious RTS that consumed as much of peoples lives as MMORPGs and have been replaced by WAR40KII, CoH, and Total War, all consisting with persistance MMO-like upgrades? Heck even as good as Starcraft2 is, it hasn't stole the market like SC1 did.

Times has change for everyone. Better enjoy it while it last. This is coming from a Flight Sim vet. 

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

Originally posted by nomatics856

I enjoyed SWTORS single player aspect a lot more than its mmorpg aspect, and when playing dungeons and PVP "The group aspect" of the game it just felt dumbed down and not that interesting at all, combat was delayed and frustrating, laggy to all hell, buggy. It made me wonder do people enjoy this? If people wanted their Co-Op fill couldnt they just play a FPS or some free dungeon crawler?

 

I can see if the game was Everquest/ UO where almost all exploration is done in a party or group, strong social interaction with other players, overcoming 80% of the games challenges with other players. You know "Social Interaction", then I  can understand playing and paying for a mmorpg every month.

 

But in Swtor and not just swtor but other current "Next gen" mmos as well I find myself soloing 75-80% of the game and the other 20% of group content is either raids, a few dungeons or PVP, All instanced give me the loot now types.

 

So why do people still play these games? Single Player rpgs have way more social interaction nowadays then these so called mmorpgs, better and more story, more dialog, no need to pay to play every month. Etc etc etc.

Exactly.

And SWTOR should have been next gen, by the fact that it should be free B2P game.

And in fact unite MMO and singleplayer gameplay.

Now its only a mediocre MMO with meager content.

Originally posted by Trikke

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

If swtor is the best out of the last 5 years, then MMO is done for. Last hope, ArcheAge. I would include GW2 but some claim it isnt an MMO.

Originally posted by yaminsux

Originally posted by Trikke

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

If swtor is the best out of the last 5 years, then MMO is done for. Last hope, ArcheAge. I would include GW2 but some claim it isnt an MMO.

you sound a little burnt out. maybe its time for a break.

Originally posted by yaminsux

Originally posted by Trikke

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

If swtor is the best out of the last 5 years, then MMO is done for. Last hope, ArcheAge. I would include GW2 but some claim it isnt an MMO.

AA looks so promising, I hope for the best.  But that comment still boggles my mind. 

GW2 = the pure definition of an MMO, as in cooperating with massive amounts of people to accomplish quests and save the world! (aka Dynamic Events).  Also has Realm PvP, instanced hardcore LoL type PvP, and 5 man dungeons for the dungeon rompers.

GW1 = not an MMO.  Was  more of a coop online RPG.

Originally posted by aionix

Originally posted by yaminsux

Originally posted by Trikke

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

If swtor is the best out of the last 5 years, then MMO is done for. Last hope, ArcheAge. I would include GW2 but some claim it isnt an MMO.

AA looks so promising, I hope for the best.  But that comment still boggles my mind. 

GW2 = the pure definition of an MMO, as in cooperating with massive amounts of people to accomplish quests and save the world! (aka Dynamic Events).  Also has Realm PvP, instanced hardcore LoL type PvP, and 5 man dungeons for the dungeon rompers.

GW1 = not an MMO.  Was  more of a coop online RPG.

me thinks you are over thinking something (mmorpgs) that are always going to be simple.

Originally posted by Antarious 

Sorry for the wall of text but your post just kind of hits me .. dead center of where I think game design went so wrong it won't come back.   Why?   I don't think you could sell a game with the UO mechanics to much of an audience these days.   Wouldn't matter if it looked great.. and had great mechanics.   Where the hell is my uber freakin loot and glowey stuff?  omg this game is broken and/or sucks.

You are right about that. 

UO would be niche if released today. Very, very Niche.

Just as you would have difficulty getting acceptance for PONG or the early Final Fantasy games. Or Doom.

Why? 

Because mechanics have progressed since then. THere will be those people that prefer Space Invaders to Wing Commander , Freelancer, or to X3. There is no doubt which came first...but does that make Space Invaders a perfect game?

As I said, Arenanet seems to most embody my views on MMORPGs and where they should be now. It's why I am really, really hoping they nail it with Guild Wars 2 and move the entire Genre forward.  Similarly with Funcom and The Secret World. 

You see there MUST be one success with new mechanics that can be held up to shareholders and investors. Once one succeeds, all the rest will follow. 

EVE and UO just don't suit me as MMORPGs. I want the grouping, I want the feeling of being in a large world. But I don't want to HAVE to be part of a group, or a Guild, to succeed. I also don't want punishing death penalties either if I mess up. This isn't real life, I'm playing to escape that crap in most instances and what matters even more is that I am PAYING. 

I truly believe that a hybrid approach is what is important, and I applauded RIFT's use of Public Groups. Seamless and almost transparent, you were grouping up and working together to get objectives done and didn't even know it at first. SWTOR has run into problems where there is imbalance in the two Factions. This is what can happen when some element of your game requires live players always. So forced grouping really is not the answer in MMORPGs. They are not 1 V 1 battles as with League of Legends. And even there matchmaking doesn't always work across various difficulty levels.

Incentives for grouping, and Solo Play. To me, that's what an MMORPG today should be. I can't fault SWTOR for the Solo Play, or the grouping. The +2 and +4 content on every world is there, it's available and it's good. And it could be totally ignored if players want to. The failure for grouping is with the flashpoints, which suffer due to the lack of a proper dungeon finder tool. Again, sure this may have been acceptable decades ago, but now the public expects more.

Does that mean that previous MMOs were better without it?There are varying opinions on that (actually I think empirically the answer is NO they were not better without it), but I would note that no one complains about the Auto Finder for PVP.

MMOs today are focused very heavily on keeping their users on a treadmill, and bogging them down with Timesinks. Free to Play MMOs have less of these timesinks, but even these sometimes force you to pay your way out of the timesink. 

Games such as Guild Wars 2 have ZERO incentive to bog down the player. Perhaps what needs to change is the business model for MMOs. If there is less of a focus on extending subscription fees by drawing content out for as long as possible, I think I would enjoy MMOs much more.

It is disappointing that the OP does not enjoy playing a game regardless of what genre it is.

I would suggest that the OP don't concern with what genre of game he is playing, just play a game. :)

Thats exactly the point why I dont play MMOs over 1,5years now. They are all the same. Age of Conan brought new stuff via an interesting combat system. Everything after that - the same.

Why even bother. Lets see what GW2 brings.

Everyone makes his/her experiences - sure and I know there are a bunch of people out there who just consume and complain instead of think. Meaning: Buying a game like swtor, played literally every MMO since now and wondering "derp, still nothing new - but spent my money on it - herp!"

^ I cant understand such people. No willpower.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Thats exactly the point why I dont play MMOs over 1,5years now. They are all the same. Age of Conan brought new stuff via an interesting combat system. Everything after that - the same.

Why even bother. Lets see what GW2 brings.

Everyone makes his/her experiences - sure and I know there are a bunch of people out there who just consume and complain instead of think. Meaning: Buying a game like swtor, played literally every MMO since now and wondering "derp, still nothing new - but spent my money on it - herp!"

^ I cant understand such people. No willpower.

I am happy to say that any game with a 'Made by Bioware' is an instant buy for me.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Thats exactly the point why I dont play MMOs over 1,5years now. They are all the same. Age of Conan brought new stuff via an interesting combat system. Everything after that - the same.

Why even bother. Lets see what GW2 brings.

Everyone makes his/her experiences - sure and I know there are a bunch of people out there who just consume and complain instead of think. Meaning: Buying a game like swtor, played literally every MMO since now and wondering "derp, still nothing new - but spent my money on it - herp!"

^ I cant understand such people. No willpower.

It has nothing to do with willpower, or lack thereof. Some people genuinely like the game. Others, like myself, just prefer to give it a fair chance instead of automatically denouncing it as crap.

How can you expect to ever find anything good if you never try?

To be honest the game isn't as horrible as some people make it out to be. Then again after reading a lot of the hate on these forums my expectations for it were pretty low. Its better than WoW, but I estimate I probably still wont be playing it for more than 2 months. Either way, it was an experience.

Originally posted by yaminsux

Originally posted by Trikke

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

If swtor is the best out of the last 5 years, then MMO is done for. Last hope, ArcheAge. I would include GW2 but some claim it isnt an MMO.

No, its just not to your taste. 

I don't get it. Every person out there seems to think every single MMO ever released should be to their taste. Life doesn't work that way. If you don't like it, then move on instead of being a doomsayer. 

Dont wonder, its cash money that keeps them around.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Thats exactly the point why I dont play MMOs over 1,5years now. They are all the same. Age of Conan brought new stuff via an interesting combat system. Everything after that - the same.

Why even bother. Lets see what GW2 brings.

Everyone makes his/her experiences - sure and I know there are a bunch of people out there who just consume and complain instead of think. Meaning: Buying a game like swtor, played literally every MMO since now and wondering "derp, still nothing new - but spent my money on it - herp!"

^ I cant understand such people. No willpower.

Honey, I have willpower. In fact, anyone that knows me will tell you that I don't take being stepped on and pushed around by anyone. I'm a very strong person. I like the game. Deal with it. And knock off the insults. There's no reason for it. 

Originally posted by Trikke

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

Nope, that would be Vanguard. But thats would require a new thread because thats a different dicussion.

Originally posted by yaminsux

Originally posted by Trikke

swtor = best mmo that has come out in the last 5 years - church

If swtor is the best out of the last 5 years, then MMO is done for. Last hope, ArcheAge. I would include GW2 but some claim it isnt an MMO.

Meh.

There is no such thing as "last hope" ... there will always be another hope for gamers.

For all I know, GW2 made the step from an online multiplayer game like GW1, or Diablo 2, to a real MMO where you actually have a shared world and will meet other people outside the gathering places (lobby in Diablo 2, cities in GW1).

I dont get how GW2 can possibly be much of a change, though. I have researched why people think so and I came up empty. Its just another MMO. Other than being B2P, theres nothing really revolutionary or different about it. Granted, neither was there anything new about WoW.

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

And people playing Call of Duty are paying yearly for it on XBOX Live. People pay because they like what they are getting, otherwise they would stop or at least I would.  You cant state (your) opinion as fact.  There are people who actually enjoy SWTOR its gameplay and story.  I am subbed to SWTOR, lvl24 Jedi Sentinel but have stopped because I personally dont like the limitations the game places on me.  Then again, I am also subbed to EverQuest 2 which is a perfect game (for me).

In terms of the Genre, MMOs are becoming more commerical and it looks as if they are trying to follow the online console model.  Where you have single player content like GTA4, but then you can also go online and play (read: group) with friends.  It attracts the casual gamer and they are willing to pay for less social interaction (read: player based economy) because they dont know what they are missing to begin with.

Thats my opinion, not meant to sway you either way but to provide a different perspective to think about.

here is a simple test.

If a gamer has never played an RPG that doesnt have classes or levels then that player hasnt been exposed enough to have any clue what he/she really likes.

In other words, if all you have ever seen is a park and your living room you would have no idea that you would perfer a mountain.