The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

 

 

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

 

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

 

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

 

 

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

 

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

 

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

Tab targeting and pressing 1,2,3...

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by MMOExposed

The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

 

 

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

 

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

 

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

Tab targeting and pressing 1,2,3...

yes and that sure is getting you through Fireland right?

A lot depends on what population you're sampling.  If it's everyone who has ever logged into the game, then that's very different from if it's everyone who is logged in at some particular time.  For example, check here:

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/SpiralKnights/achievements

41.8% of Spiral Knights players on Steam don't have the "Welcome, Stranger" achievement for beating the very first level.  A brand new character might do that 15 minutes after completing character creation.  Or much faster if it's someone's alt who knows what to do.  Only 16.9% have ever completed tier 1, and a new player might do that a couple of hours into playing the game.  For comparison, at any given moment, I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of players logged in (80%?  90%?) have completed tier 1 at least once.

I played wow a long time ago.  At that time no one on my server completed all the raid instance.  In fact the developer comes on forum and states less than 1% have completed all the raid instance. 

Getting elite pvp gear is impossible.  Only 2 people on my server get the epic pvp weapon.  I played 10 hours everyday for a few month doing battle ground and I didn't even come close. 

After all the complain, they finally implemented arena, and the general pvper can get gear at a pace.  But the arena is still challenging.  Let's say you want to be the top 5% pvper, you have to be better than 95% other people, that's challenging.

That to me is hardcore. 

Another

Hard raids = hard game   assumption.

Damn this argument "WoW is not easy cause it have hard heroic raids" IS REALLY OLD.

I don't care about raids.  Almost at all.  Actually I don't really like very hard raids.

I want hard / not faceroll GAME.   Crafting, open world combat, normal dungeons, game promoting/ forcing interdependability etc  <--- THIS HARDER

Not few hard instanced raids. Hard mode raids could be even easier imo.

Originally posted by fenistil

Another

 

Hard raids = hard game   assumption.

 

Damn this argument "WoW is not easy cause it have hard heroic raids" IS REALLY OLD.

 

I don't care about raids.  Almost at all.  Actually I don't really like very hard raids.

 

 

I want hard / not faceroll GAME.   Crafting, open world combat, normal dungeons, game promoting/ forcing interdependability etc  <--- THIS HARDER

 

Not few hard instanced raids.

how can WoW or any of these post WoW games be Easier, when Vanilla WoW didnt have that as well?

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by fenistil

Another

 

Hard raids = hard game   assumption.

 

Damn this argument "WoW is not easy cause it have hard heroic raids" IS REALLY OLD.

 

I don't care about raids.  Almost at all.  Actually I don't really like very hard raids.

 

 

I want hard / not faceroll GAME.   Crafting, open world combat, normal dungeons, game promoting/ forcing interdependability etc  <--- THIS HARDER

 

Not few hard instanced raids.

how can WoW or any of these post WoW games be Easier, when Vanilla WoW didnt have that as well?

There were mmorpg's before WoW you know?

Besides Vanilla WoW was easy, current WoW is EVEN easier.

edit:

I just saw you asked do 'making game more hardcore make it more succesful?".

If you mean succesful = more people playing?

Then no it does not.

Obviously easier game = more subs.

That's obvious.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by MMOExposed

The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

 

 

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

 

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

 

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.

Right.

Im baffled by the op.

Hard mode instanced raiding that one washes repeats and does continuously over and over again has never been and will never be recognized as something similar to hardcore, let alone mmorpg enthusiast-like.

Reason why 50% of subscribers seem to leave a subscription-based mmorpg within the first few months has little to do with that and more to do with the realization that one is paying $15/month for what amounts to a lobby-system cooperative online rpg with very little to no content that resembles what a massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world should.

Originally posted by Khors

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by MMOExposed

The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

 

 

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

 

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

 

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.

Right.

 

Im baffled by the op.

 

Hard mode instanced raiding that one washes repeats and does continuously over and over again has never been and will never be recognized as something similar to hardcore, let alone mmorpg enthusiast-like.

 

Reason why 50% of subscribers seem to leave a subscription-based mmorpg within the first few months has little to do with that and more to do with the realization that one is paying $15/month for what amounts to a lobby-system cooperative online rpg with very little to no content that resembles what a massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world should.

Finally someone agrees with me. I have been fighting the good fight for years but its so hard when no one else weighs in on your side.

Originally posted by Khors

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by MMOExposed

The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

 

 

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

 

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

 

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.

Right.

 

Im baffled by the op.

 

Hard mode instanced raiding that one washes repeats and does continuously over and over again has never been and will never be recognized as something similar to hardcore, let alone mmorpg enthusiast-like.

 

Reason why 50% of subscribers seem to leave a subscription-based mmorpg within the first few months has little to do with that and more to do with the realization that one is paying $15/month for what amounts to a lobby-system cooperative online rpg with very little to no content that resembles what a massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world should.

ok, show me this game that is the opposite of this. which you obviously enjoy.

I'm still trying to figure out what, exactly, "Hardcore" means.  Is it spending your entire waking life leveling up toons?  Raiding 5 times a week for 6 hour stretches?  Playing a game that has full loot ffa pvp?  Playing a game with permadeath?  So confoooosed.

Being a rather solitary person, I don't do raids, so please exclude my stable of characters from the difficulty calculation.

I'm not getting involved with this arguments. 

The only thing I want to say is I play wow 1.0 and 2.0.  And the raid of wow is hard.  It's technical and require coordination between many people.  wow 1.0 is ok, alot of people complete molten core.  But for 2.0, the raid get harder.  I'm on a relatively high population server and no one on my server was able to complete the raid. 

But weather the game itself is hard or not, you guys can argue, that's my only comment. 

Originally posted by jdlamson75

I'm still trying to figure out what, exactly, "Hardcore" means.  Is it spending your entire waking life leveling up toons?  Raiding 5 times a week for 6 hour stretches?  Playing a game that has full loot ffa pvp?  Playing a game with permadeath?  So confoooosed.

Go Flyers.

I think HARDCORE  to me anyway are the people who raid 6 nights a week non stop. Those who rush to lvl cap in 2 days.  Have super strict guild rules like no one talks in vent during a raid. I'd would say over 50 hours a week?

Originally posted by sciocco

Originally posted by jdlamson75

I'm still trying to figure out what, exactly, "Hardcore" means.  Is it spending your entire waking life leveling up toons?  Raiding 5 times a week for 6 hour stretches?  Playing a game that has full loot ffa pvp?  Playing a game with permadeath?  So confoooosed.

Go Flyers.

Right on.

If I want to work, I get on the phone and call my boss.  They are always short staffed.  I get bonus pay plus overtime and make a shitload of cash.

If I want to play a game, I sit down in my relaxing chair and have some fun.  It is not fun spending my entire afternoon or evening with 20 other people pushing the same few buttons for hours and hours to get nothing or maybe one piece of gear.   It's not fun having to do that 20 or 30 or 50 times to get a complete set.

I would rather bla bla bla on mmorpg.com than raid.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Khors

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by MMOExposed

The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

 

 

but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

 

this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

 

WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.

Right.

 

Im baffled by the op.

 

Hard mode instanced raiding that one washes repeats and does continuously over and over again has never been and will never be recognized as something similar to hardcore, let alone mmorpg enthusiast-like.

 

Reason why 50% of subscribers seem to leave a subscription-based mmorpg within the first few months has little to do with that and more to do with the realization that one is paying $15/month for what amounts to a lobby-system cooperative online rpg with very little to no content that resembles what a massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world should.

ok, show me this game that is the opposite of this. which you obviously enjoy.

I agree.  Please Khors, what is this "massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world"??  If this game existed, or ever existed, I'd play it too.  It seems like some people here fabricate this idea of a perfect sandbox mmorpg, when one has never existed yet.  But people talk about this type of game like it used to exist, and they say that current day mmorpgs have de-evolved from them.  

There may have been some older mmos with a few sandbox concepts, but no true sandbox with "player-involved and influenced" worlds.  I had played most of the popular old mmos that people say were better than the themeparks today.  Yet none of those olders games were very dynamic.  Maybe some cities changed factions with RvR going on, but that doesn't make the world dynamic.  

And the OP is right when he says any attempt to make a more 'hardcore' or sandboxy mmo fails.  If you look at games like Ryzom, A Tale in the Desert, and Wurm; none of them did very well at all.  And none of those examples (except Wurm) had fully dynamic worlds.

And it's also funny to call games like WoW and TOR a 'lobby-system' when there is more socializing, and grouping done in those themeparks than any of the sandbox wannabe games.