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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We are not locusts - Why the MMO genre must re-invent itself

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177 posts found
  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

1/29/12 6:36:24 PM#121
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by Miner-2049er

I recently saw a video from Swtor where opposing factions were taking turns to wipe the other group out for PvP rep. This single video sums up for me what is wrong with MMO players these days. They simply don't relate to the game world. They have given up on immersion and will do anything to 'beat' the game as fast as possible. They'll happily walk round with a 'God of PvP' achievement to their name even if they've never actually engaged in fair PvP.

These people are locusts and they are no longer in the minority.

 

While i dont really disagree with your point, you may want to read the example you have provided again, slowly.

Is it now BAD that players ACTUALLY COMMUNICATE and WORK TOGETHER, because someone has stupidly set up the system so that taking turns is more beneficial and easy than try for a tie or anything?

REALLY ?

Players may be locusts, but the farmer who knows the locusts are coming and leaves his produce on the open field, has its own share of fault in this.

One of the more creative defenses of fight clubbing I've seen...... but still doesn't fix the fact that fight clubbing is horrible.  It's horrible for the devs to implement something like it, but those who engage in it are still pretty worthless human beings.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

1/29/12 6:44:23 PM#122
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by Thrage

RIFT is a financially successful game.  Sure, it doesn't even have 1/10 the playerbase of Warcraft, but it does make money for the developer, and Trion is a very respectable one.

Yeah, but considering the investment-return and the risk involved it's not stellar by any means. If I were an investor, a mmorg would be the last product I'd want to invest in.

I bet EA/BW's suits are banging their heads against the wall for sinking all that money into SW:TOR while they could have made off like bandits with KOTORs 3, 4 and 5...

I would've bought it.  Sadly, they basically killed a fantastic storyline with the MMO now.  The fate of Revan might be "told" but it wasn't something you got to play.  There won't be much more time to discover the deeper aspects of what Revan did, why Kreia really did what she did, etc.

 

TOR has a great storyline...... but as of right now it is a waste in TOR.  TOR does a lot of things which are fun.  Yet I'm just reaching level 20 (after 2 hours a night or so of either solo or 2 man groups), and boredom is already starting to set in from an MMO standpoint.

 

Personally, TOR is an outstanding single player game, except it isn't supposed to be a single player game.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

1/29/12 6:48:16 PM#123
Originally posted by TruthXHurts

WoW only saw financial success because it had a huge following of the Warcraft RTS games. If not for that IP it would have tanked.

There was more than that.

They had a very well developed IP with Warcraft.  And they did indeed have battle.net to SATURATE players with teasers about WoW.

Yet they also had a very shrewd marketing team.  They didn't stumble upon the accelerated path of leveling by accident.  They saw that there was an audience for more casual people, and they went after them.  They also spent a lot of money.

 

While "story driven MMO" is a nice concept, it really wasn't something people were clamoring for.  I happen to think they've hit on something, and future games (whether pvp or pve based) should play with this a bit.  Bioware should've identified:

 

1.)  Why do we want to make a Star wars game

2.)  Why did the previous Star Wars game fail?

3.)  Why did WoW succeed?

4.)  Why are people looking for something greater than WoW?

I think they answered some of these questions, but they didn't give enough thought to the others.  They innovated with "story driven MMO", but other than that, Blizzard should sue them for plagirizing them, and plagirizing them badly.

  Dredphyre

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 609

fanboi of truth

1/29/12 6:59:46 PM#124
Originally posted by nikoliath

Not ALL gamers are not locusts, simply the majority of people who participate on sites such as this are. Stop thinking the genre needs re-inventing because the fringes of a community say so.

I think you win this thread.

 

If a developer were to design a game based on majority opinion of this site, it would would be financial suicide. Catering to a fringe group from a fringe genre within the gaming industry isn't a recipe for much success.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

1/29/12 7:13:33 PM#125
Originally posted by Dredphyre
Originally posted by nikoliath

Not ALL gamers are not locusts, simply the majority of people who participate on sites such as this are. Stop thinking the genre needs re-inventing because the fringes of a community say so.

I think you win this thread.

 

If a developer were to design a game based on majority opinion of this site, it would would be financial suicide. Catering to a fringe group from a fringe genre within the gaming industry isn't a recipe for much success.

EvE says hi. ATITD also.

  corpusc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1348

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

1/29/12 7:51:46 PM#126
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by corpusc

@axehilt

 you really have no idea how ridiculous it sounds to say

 "Darkfall is fast food

and WoW is fine steak"?

 unless you're a huge fan of Justin Bieber & (insert list of really popular musical artists), and think their popularity proves their superiority.... then you really should get off of that line of argumentation.

 also the whole part about saying how your favorite games have all the benefits a customer could want with NO DRAWBACKs (your FAST STEAK restaurant analogy), just goes to show that analogy very quickly breaks down.  almost nothing in this world is pure gain with no loss.

DF is the Bieber here.  Grindy and zergy.  Shallow.

Without a doubt WOW was a more interesting challenge of my skills than anything I found in Darkfall.  If there was depth to be found in DF, it was well-hidden behind a huge wall of grind and zerginess.

 

not only can you not keep the analogies straight, you then spin it off into an anti-Darkfall rant.  lol

i don't give a crap what you thought of Darkfall, its just a ridiculous comment to equate it to "fast food".

 

its obvious from that DF rant, and the WoW worship that real life skills have no importance to you.  throw that on the pile with other worthless things to you, like  a virtual world. or an MMO being an MMO.  these points have been made abundantly clear.  many times.  time to break out of old patterns.  but then.... thats what your preferred playstyle is.  oh well, i guess its all part of the big picture.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  corpusc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1348

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

1/29/12 8:06:23 PM#127
Originally posted by Bladestrom

why is thread being derailed to sandbox v themepark? 

 heh, seems like lately EVERY freakin' thread on every MMO forum quickly turns into sandbox vs. themepark.

 

they aren't necessarily opposites, which is how most people seem to be acting.  even Darkfall has a certain small amount of themepark to it.  every game can have both aspects.  its just a matter of how much time/money is invested in culivating each of those aspects.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3195

Poacher killer.

1/29/12 8:23:58 PM#128
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Axehilt
 

DF is the Bieber here.  Grindy and zergy.  Shallow.

Without a doubt WOW was a more interesting challenge of my skills than anything I found in Darkfall.  If there was depth to be found in DF, it was well-hidden behind a huge wall of grind and zerginess.

not only can you not keep the analogies straight, you then spin it off into an anti-Darkfall rant.  lol

i don't give a crap what you thought of Darkfall, its just a ridiculous comment to equate it to "fast food".

 

its obvious from that DF rant, and the WoW worship that real life skills have no importance to you.  throw that on the pile with other worthless things to you, like  a virtual world. or an MMO being an MMO.  these points have been made abundantly clear.  many times.  time to break out of old patterns.  but then.... thats what your preferred playstyle is.  oh well, i guess its all part of the big picture.

When a certain type of person comes upon something that they really really like, they seem to cling to that specific thing like it's a fucking security blanket. In such a state, it apparently becomes quite the challenge to see the world outside of the comfy cozy blanky. Change is essentially something to fear. It gets even more powerful when that blanky is associated with one's career.  

"DF is the Bieber here"...Yikes :) It really doesn't get more out of touch than that. ""'"W W   Holy Wowzers.

 

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  spaceport

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/11
Posts: 417

1/29/12 8:37:22 PM#129
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by corpusc

@axehilt

 you really have no idea how ridiculous it sounds to say

 "Darkfall is fast food

and WoW is fine steak"?

 unless you're a huge fan of Justin Bieber & (insert list of really popular musical artists), and think their popularity proves their superiority.... then you really should get off of that line of argumentation.

 also the whole part about saying how your favorite games have all the benefits a customer could want with NO DRAWBACKs (your FAST STEAK restaurant analogy), just goes to show that analogy very quickly breaks down.  almost nothing in this world is pure gain with no loss.

DF is the Bieber here.  Grindy and zergy.  Shallow.

Without a doubt WOW was a more interesting challenge of my skills than anything I found in Darkfall.  If there was depth to be found in DF, it was well-hidden behind a huge wall of grind and zerginess.

 

not only can you not keep the analogies straight, you then spin it off into an anti-Darkfall rant.  lol

i don't give a crap what you thought of Darkfall, its just a ridiculous comment to equate it to "fast food".

 

its obvious from that DF rant, and the WoW worship that real life skills have no importance to you.  throw that on the pile with other worthless things to you, like  a virtual world. or an MMO being an MMO.  these points have been made abundantly clear.  many times.  time to break out of old patterns.  but then.... thats what your preferred playstyle is.  oh well, i guess its all part of the big picture.

Lol you should read some of his posts every time he talks about EVE.

It must really hurt to see a good MMO with sandbox elements be so successful, it contradicts everything he says about "good MMOs" being made for the lowest common denominator, how everyone hates PVP if it's not instanced, how having more things to do other than grind dungeons is  "bad game design", etc etc etc.

"Sandbox players are just a niche audience, the only way to go is make generic mainstream MMOs"

oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...


"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu

  User Deleted
1/29/12 8:46:06 PM#130
Originally posted by spacepor

 

oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

RIFT actually has about as many players as LOTRO which has about as many players as EvE. SO....

 

Sandbox MMOs are made for quite a small market as the only successful on is EvE Online. Unless you want to really count Runescape.

 

Then you also have to factor in how many people actually play EvE, because I remember when I played it that I had two subs running at the same time due to its skilling up while logged off thing.

  jpnz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3394

1/29/12 8:49:13 PM#131
Originally posted by spaceport
 

Lol you should read some of his posts every time he talks about EVE.

It must really hurt to see a good MMO with sandbox elements be so successful, it contradicts everything he says about "good MMOs" being made for the lowest common denominator, how everyone hates PVP if it's not instanced, how having more things to do other than grind dungeons is  "bad game design", etc etc etc.

"Sandbox players are just a niche audience, the only way to go is make generic mainstream MMOs"

oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

The above post is factually false.

EVE subs do not exceed WAR/AoC/Aion and Rift put together.

The figures for Aion was 2-3M alone while EVE is around 400-500k from publically available records.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

1/29/12 8:51:28 PM#132
Originally posted by spaceport

I thing you got it wrong dude.

Themeparks are shallow & mainstream, they have no depth = McDonalds MMOs

Sandboxes are innovative, have depth, freedom, choices, more things to do, and they aren't mainstream = Steak

I really hope you are never in charge of developing an MMO, developers like you are the reason that basic themeparks made for 8 years old keep failing, just bad and shallow games.

Darkfall is a shallow game about AFKing in front of ore nodes, AFKing in front of crafting stations, AFK swimming to gain stats, excessive grinding against mobs to gain skills, and finally zerging to win PVP.  How can you possibly think that's a deep game?  99% of the game for most players is as flat as a pancake!

Meanwhile on the themepark side, a good themepark is quite frequently rewarding skilled play.  Not as often as it should be (leveling should be optionally more challenging, PVP shouldn't be about gear advantage, raiding should be small-scale to keep player decisions important) but far more often than a lousy sandbox like DF.

DF is the Bieber of MMORPGs.

  spaceport

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/11
Posts: 417

1/29/12 8:51:50 PM#133
Originally posted by Snaylor47
Originally posted by spacepor

 

oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

RIFT actually has about as many players as LOTRO which has about as many players as EvE. SO....

 

Sandbox MMOs are made for quite a small market as the only successful on is EvE Online. Unless you want to really count Runescape.

 

Then you also have to factor in how many people actually play EvE, because I remember when I played it that I had two subs running at the same time due to its skilling up while logged off thing.

I love when people pull numbers out of their $#% lol.

Lotro does not have as many players as EvE, and it's F2P.

Rift is another failed themepark, even if it has 300k subs right now (it doesn't), just wait a couple of months and it will become f2p, or merge even more servers and become another joke like AoC or WAR.


"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu

  spaceport

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/11
Posts: 417

1/29/12 8:52:47 PM#134
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by spaceport
 

Lol you should read some of his posts every time he talks about EVE.

It must really hurt to see a good MMO with sandbox elements be so successful, it contradicts everything he says about "good MMOs" being made for the lowest common denominator, how everyone hates PVP if it's not instanced, how having more things to do other than grind dungeons is  "bad game design", etc etc etc.

"Sandbox players are just a niche audience, the only way to go is make generic mainstream MMOs"

oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

The above post is factually false.

EVE subs do not exceed WAR/AoC/Aion and Rift put together.

The figures for Aion was 2-3M alone while EVE is around 400-500k from publically available records.

Western Aion


"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

1/29/12 10:22:47 PM#135

I dont' know how accurate all this internet rumor is.  But warhammer 80k, aoc 120k, eve 400k, rift and aion together should be more than 200k.  With alll the fiascol happens with eve on july about microtransaction I'm not sure if eve even have 400k now.

But that's internet, I'm not sure if any of this is accurate.

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

1/29/12 10:33:18 PM#136
? Whoa, where are people getting all these figures from?? I mean, I kinda guess that Aion has over 1 million subs because they keep making 200+ million dollar revenues a year from Aion, and I kinda guess that EVE has maybe somewhere around 300, 350k subs. But the rest of these figures are new to me. Are these figures all personal wild guesses or is there some info around that validates those figures?
  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3195

Poacher killer.

1/29/12 10:54:12 PM#137
Originally posted by smh_alot
? Whoa, where are people getting all these figures from?? I mean, I kinda guess that Aion has over 1 million subs because they keep making 200+ million dollar revenues a year from Aion, and I kinda guess that EVE has maybe somewhere around 300, 350k subs. But the rest of these figures are new to me. Are these figures all personal wild guesses or is there some info around that validates those figures?

I have no idea where some of these folks are getting their numbers, but frankly, you sound creepishly familiar.

“I sense something. A presence I've not felt since...” 

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

1/29/12 10:58:37 PM#138
Originally posted by smh_alot
? Whoa, where are people getting all these figures from?? I mean, I kinda guess that Aion has over 1 million subs because they keep making 200+ million dollar revenues a year from Aion, and I kinda guess that EVE has maybe somewhere around 300, 350k subs. But the rest of these figures are new to me. Are these figures all personal wild guesses or is there some info around that validates those figures?

Google.  And I dont' know what Aion and Rift sub is, I just says I'm pretty sure the 2 total is over 200k.  And the guy specifically says aion western sub. 

Eve publish it's sub.  But stop publishing it.  The guy says 400k-500k for Eve.  Base on google I'm not sure if it even have 400k, I dont' think it have 400k.

  Sanisar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 19

1/30/12 12:12:16 AM#139

MMOdata.net   has the most accurate data that I know of.  Most of the figures I see tossed around are pretty accurate though.

 

@OP  You are right on the money, and I have been preaching it for years.  MMO's are no longer 'virtual worlds'; they play like single player games for the most part with coop elements at level cap.  It is incredibly lazy design and IMO the genre is at an all-time low.

The genre is either going to evolve into something deeper or titles are going to be designed to be F2P from the onset.  There is nothing in most modern MMOs to keep me engaged in a world longer than a month or two.  I think TOR is a huge step back for the genre, stripping even more MMO elements (meaningful worlds, noncombat progression, economies, player choice, etc.) and replacing them with a single-player leveling experience with a subset of 'rides' at level cap to hopefully keep you subbed.

There is no mystery, excitement, or imagination involved for me.  Everything I'm going to do in game is a foregone conclusion when I make my character at level 1.  Am I supposed to pay BioWare $15 a month for the few twists and turns I encounter in the class stories?  Do you know how much Dostoevsky I can buy for the same money?

TOR should have been sold as a B2P game with DLC plain and simple.  That is what the genre has evolved into sadly: 'MMO's' that are SPRPGs + dungeons/raids/battlegrounds . . . at $15 a month.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

1/30/12 1:03:29 AM#140
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by spaceport

I thing you got it wrong dude.

Themeparks are shallow & mainstream, they have no depth = McDonalds MMOs

Sandboxes are innovative, have depth, freedom, choices, more things to do, and they aren't mainstream = Steak

I really hope you are never in charge of developing an MMO, developers like you are the reason that basic themeparks made for 8 years old keep failing, just bad and shallow games.

Darkfall is a shallow game about AFKing in front of ore nodes, AFKing in front of crafting stations, AFK swimming to gain stats, excessive grinding against mobs to gain skills, and finally zerging to win PVP.  How can you possibly think that's a deep game?  99% of the game for most players is as flat as a pancake!

Meanwhile on the themepark side, a good themepark is quite frequently rewarding skilled play.  Not as often as it should be (leveling should be optionally more challenging, PVP shouldn't be about gear advantage, raiding should be small-scale to keep player decisions important) but far more often than a lousy sandbox like DF.

DF is the Bieber of MMORPGs.

Im not talking bout DF now, but in general.

This is ctually where the worlds collide, where two subgroups of mmo players clash, the question: What is more important, more deep and more fun? Solving WHEN and WHAT or HOW?

WHEN - do i wait till i can wield the ubersword +3 ? or until i have the next level heal? or when i meet a terminator lv14 to tank ? or when i respec to be more defensive? do i really want to even respec, ever ?

WHAT - do i kill this mob for exp, or the other one who also drops mats, or do i kill the completely different mob because i like his dying animation or it is weak to my damage type and will probably be willing to kill more of those that the first two? or yet another for some reputation?

HOW - rotation, tactics, what do i do when he starts to spit the orange goo?

Now ofcourse some of you will claim, that the WHEN and WHAT gets completely destroyed by guides and databases and such, but even HOW is not immune, bossmods, tactical exploits, overgearing, content trivialisation :) , you name it, we have seen it all.

And some of you will claim that HOW is the only "good game design" :)

Flame on!

:)

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