Originally posted by Teala

Yes, lets blame everyone but the game company that made the game.   SWTOR is not the game it is becuase of Biowares design decisions, this is all Blizzards and Trions fault. 

But the ultimate message being sent is that its not ok for Bioware to have a lousy product, but its fine for Blizzard and Trion.  Trion, more than any other AAA MMORPG, said 'we dont give a gnoll's ass about our journey, we know endgame is what you really want'.

When you want to get weeds out of your garden do you snip the top off?  No you pull it out from its roots. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Repeat after me:

• All content is journey.
• All gameplay is journey.

Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.

 

People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.

 

It hasn't.

Doing laps around the block is not a journey.  Thats what WoW, Rift and SWToR are all about now.    And to make matters worse, that block used to have many, many roads that led to it.  All the roads have been closed but one or two now.

Originally posted by teakbois

Doing laps around the block is not a journey.  Thats what WoW, Rift and SWToR are all about now.    And to make matters worse, that block used to have many, many roads that led to it.  All the roads have been closed but one or two now.

In my experience with early MMORPGs, all those roads were merely endless mob-grind and vastly less interesting a journey than the activities I do in a well-made modern endgame.

It's all still journey though, whether you pretend it isn't or not.  Journey is gameplay, and MMORPGs clearly offer gameplay at endgame.  As long as it keeps throwing interesting things at you, you keep journeying.

It's only when you reach best-in-slot everything that the journey really ends.  The journey may be less interesting if you have to grind a lot but, well...early MMORPGs are guiltier than most MMORPGs of that particular gameplay sin.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Shadowlord10

Originally posted by Axehilt

Repeat after me:

• All content is journey.
• All gameplay is journey.

Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.

 

People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.

 

It hasn't.

Be that as it may, going through the same thing day in and day out doesn't feel like a journey.  It feels like a drive to work and back home again.  Yes, it is a journey, but it is a boring one you do everyday.

As long as we're not trying to pretend earlier MMORPGs were somehow better, I totally agree with that statement.

Early MMORPGs were a drive to work with endless mob-grinding long before you reached endgame.  Despite newer MMORPGs being way better than that, they could obviously stand to be changed in ways that make them interesting for longer.  The same could be said of any game, really.

It isn't that they were better per-say, but even in all that grinding, it seemed better.  You grouped up with people, and had a blast, and that "grind" didn't seem like anything. Grouping with others was fun, and it was something people looked forward to.  It wasn't like grouping with people today.  You weren't insulted for not having the best gear, or for not understanding a boss the first time through a dungeon. You weren't insulted if you caused a wipe.  I could go on about this, but I imagine you get the point.

I have plenty of memories over the years of being lost for 8-12 hours at a time, completely captured in what i was doing in a game.  It was a challenge.  It generally was hard.  But that challenge was worth the reward, and after playing, you felt like you did something.  I again, don't feel that way anymore.

I agree with you though, that any game could stand to be changed a bit.  Even the older games that I fondly remember could of used a few changes here and there.  I guess the point I'm trying to make is even though there was a ton more grind, it somehow felt more fulfilling, and overall a better game.  I'm guessing in today's world, people can't be allowed that freedom to go do what they want, we need to be guided, or we might get lost.

Originally posted by Cavod

Originally posted by teakbois

 In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.  

I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that.  It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.


If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.


How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast.  Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.


Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above.   We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs.  Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)


Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.

 

I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.

It's funny you bring up that analogy about rushing through a tour or book.  Remember the movie Jurassic Park?  the part where they have to sit im the jeeps on that automated tour?   The characters see no dinosaurs but are wanting to, so they take it upon themselves to break the rules by leaving the jeep and venturing off the "linear" path.  This is what SWTOR is but without the ability to leave the jeep.  

Back to me being more pertaining to the topic.

SWTOR is the primary, most high profile whipping boy for what's wrong with the MMORPG genre.  The answers are blatantly easy.

1.  Despite BioWare being one of the most popular developers in any game genre around, for all their reputation, they fear straying away from all the things WoW has done.  So... another WoW Clone, in a sea of WoW Clones.

2.  Limited PvP:  Heavily instanced based.  See my complaints about instanced vs old school open world PvP in one of my earlier posts.  The developers by design relegated PvP into a tiny, empty shoebox and stuffed it under the bed to be forgotten about.

3.  Excessive Single Player Focus:  Come on, NPCs that can fill out your party and craft gear for you too?  SWTOR continues the trend of destroying completely community interdependency and cohesiveness.  I say again, SWTOR is a SPRPG that requires an internet connection, nothing more.

4.  Lack of things to do outside combat.  Very plain and simple.

5.  Lastly, despite the time and outrageous amount of money SWTOR received for development, the only thing that positively stands out with the game is... voiceovers.  Yes, voiceovers, and lots of them.  Seriously?!?  After all that time and money, the only thing that stands out is voiceovers?  Instead of text telling you to skin 10 Jawas, a voice actor tells you to skin 10 Jawas?

How can SWTOR not be the poster child for what's wrong with MMORPGs?  You have developers with the name "BioWare," have ample time, and have the cash that 99% of other developers can only dream of getting, have the fabled "Star Wars" IP, and the end result is... SWTOR.

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Cavod

Originally posted by teakbois

 In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.  

I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that.  It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.


If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.


How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast.  Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.


Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above.   We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs.  Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)


Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.

 

I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.

It's funny you bring up that analogy about rushing through a tour or book.  Remember the movie Jurassic Park?  the part where they have to sit im the jeeps on that automated tour?   The characters see no dinosaurs but are wanting to, so they take it upon themselves to break the rules by leaving the jeep and venturing off the "linear" path.  This is what SWTOR is but without the ability to leave the jeep.  

That is what EVERY themepark is by definition so I don't get your point.  If you're saying the story is bad then I disagree as I feel it's one of the best and well presented stories in a MMO that I've seen in a long time.  People call it a single player rpg for a reason.

Edit: LOL! look at point #3 of the post right above mine.

Originally posted by Cavod

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Cavod

Originally posted by teakbois

 In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.  

I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that.  It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.


If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.


How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast.  Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.


Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above.   We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs.  Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)


Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.

 

I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.

It's funny you bring up that analogy about rushing through a tour or book.  Remember the movie Jurassic Park?  the part where they have to sit im the jeeps on that automated tour?   The characters see no dinosaurs but are wanting to, so they take it upon themselves to break the rules by leaving the jeep and venturing off the "linear" path.  This is what SWTOR is but without the ability to leave the jeep.  

That is what EVERY themepark is by definition so I don't get your point.  If you're saying the story is bad then I disagree as I feel it's one of the best and well presented stories in a MMO that I've seen in a long time.  People call it a single player rpg for a reason.

 

Edit: LOL! look at point #3 of the post right above mine.

That's not true.  Ever go to Disneyworld?  the most epic themepark every created but guess what, I have SOOOO many options to choose from and many, especially in Epcot center, are interactive and let me off the linear path.  WoW and Lotro are themepark but they have an extra element that Rift and SWTOR failed to capture.  Explorable worlds that feel alive, for the most part.

Now, me personally, I want sandparks.  Hybrids, and they are coming in TSW, GW2, ArcheAge.  But SWTOR and Rift seem to be going backwards away from what makes a good themepark have longevity.

How did you get the assumption that I meant story was bad?  It's not and is one of the only good aspects of SWTOR, however once you hit 50 and the story is over....well then we're right back in threads like this wondering where the longevity in SWTOR is and why they didn't create true WORLDs to play in.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Back to me being more pertaining to the topic.

SWTOR is the primary, most high profile whipping boy for what's wrong with the MMORPG genre.  The answers are blatantly easy.

1.  Despite BioWare being one of the most popular developers in any game genre around, for all their reputation, they fear straying away from all the things WoW has done.  So... another WoW Clone, in a sea of WoW Clones.

2.  Limited PvP:  Heavily instanced based.  See my complaints about instanced vs old school open world PvP in one of my earlier posts.  The developers by design relegated PvP into a tiny, empty shoebox and stuffed it under the bed to be forgotten about.

3.  Excessive Single Player Focus:  Come on, NPCs that can fill out your party and craft gear for you too?  SWTOR continues the trend of destroying completely community interdependency and cohesiveness.  I say again, SWTOR is a SPRPG that requires an internet connection, nothing more.

4.  Lack of things to do outside combat.  Very plain and simple.

5.  Lastly, despite the time and outrageous amount of money SWTOR received for development, the only thing that positively stands out with the game is... voiceovers.  Yes, voiceovers, and lots of them.  Seriously?!?  After all that time and money, the only thing that stands out is voiceovers?  Instead of text telling you to skin 10 Jawas, a voice actor tells you to skin 10 Jawas?

 

How can SWTOR not be the poster child for what's wrong with MMORPGs?  You have developers with the name "BioWare," have ample time, and have the cash that 99% of other developers can only dream of getting, have the fabled "Star Wars" IP, and the end result is... SWTOR.

And yet lets look at WoW.

Point 1 cant be held against it obviously.

Point 2 can.  They had open world PvP at launch, but shifted the focus to BGs and arenas and stopped supporting any kind of open PvP at all.  It just doesnt happen.  I dont think Ive seen a city raid once in all of Cataclysm.

Point 3?  Pioneered by WoW.  No game on the market is more single player focused than WoW.  Outside of Crucible of Carnage, I dont think there was a single multiplayer quest in all of Cataclysm.  And they *removed* all multiplayer quests from the 1-80 game.  Also games are driven by impersonal group mechanics like the LFD tool or Rifts public group system.  In Rift you can be closing a rift, someone comes along, enters your group, kills a few things, and leaves without a word.  that could have been an AI driven companion for all I know.

Point 4?  Well in WoW you can do dailies or...umm....?  SWToR does have the mini game with the space shooter and it has the codex which functions like achievements.  No, its not impressive (though the codex is kind of cool).  But what does WoW have that stands out here?  No housng, no social activities whatsoever.  Just dailies, dungeons, raids, achievements, currency grinds.

And point 5....for billions of dollars a year and revenue and a glacial 2 year expansion cycle all Blizzard can give is cataclysm?  Really?

The fact is the industry leader is guilty of your points as well, and they have way more money than Bioware and have experience with MMORPGs, and they own their IP so they arent as handcuffed by it.

Originally posted by elocke

 WoW and Lotro are themepark but they have an extra element that Rift and SWTOR failed to capture.  Explorable worlds that feel alive, for the most part.

 

And WoW has removed this element from its newer content and discouraged it from ther older content.

And LOTRO?  It has housing.  It has its music system which is awesome.  Things that make it seem like you actually are in middle earth.  Not just fighting in front of a projection screen of middle earth.

Themeparks are unsustainable because any content that you create only becomes obsolete within a few months.Developers need to create content that lasts for the lifetime of the product and stop creating fast food content.

We need a really solid Sandbox.. Honestly starting to think that the Inde companies are gonna be the saviors of this genre!

I mean imagine when the day comes when "Daoc meets SWG-PRECU" is released !

I doubt anyone posting on this forum wouldnt drool over that idea of just giving us something solid that will last.

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Themeparks are unsustainable because any content that you create only becomes obsolete within a few months.Developers need to create content that lasts for the lifetime of the product and stop creating fast food content.

That's what I felt about AOC and fallen earth.  I reach the level cap and nothing else to do.  And apparently that's how my whole guild quit in those 2 games.

But games like wow have raid, dungeon, battleground, arena.  Those keep many player to play for years.  Tell me how Wow can have so many subscriber if what you say is true.

I play Atlantica online for 2 years, all I do everyday is kill the same monster over and over again.  As boring as it sounds, those things keep player's subscription. 

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by precious328

Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.

And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.

SWG... Also had the SW name and was still a failure in the eyes of the very devs who created it.

 

I think what you typed is absolutly BS the reason being that I once tried to get about 5 of my non mmo playing gamer friends into MMOs, I gave them all trial invites. They played for about a month n a half each and then unsubbed, Their reason? that there was too much crap to do and the game was too big. The Irony to it is they absoluty adore SKYRIM.

It's funny that you bring up SWG, because the game failed when it was revamped into a Theme Park. Regardless, old SWG is still one of the most talked about and missed MMOs to have ever been created.

As for your friends quitting because the game was too "complex", then your friends represent the problem in the genre - hold me hand and guide me type players who want everything as easy as possible.

Originally posted by precious328

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by precious328

Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.

And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.

SWG... Also had the SW name and was still a failure in the eyes of the very devs who created it.

I think what you typed is absolutly BS the reason being that I once tried to get about 5 of my non mmo playing gamer friends into MMOs, I gave them all trial invites. They played for about a month n a half each and then unsubbed, Their reason? that there was too much crap to do and the game was too big. The Irony to it is they absoluty adore SKYRIM.

It's funny that you bring up SWG, because the game failed when it was revamped into a Theme Park. Regardless, old SWG is still one of the most talked about and missed MMOs to have ever been created.

As for your friends quitting because the game was too "complex", then your friends represent the problem in the genre - hold me hand and guide me type players who want everything as easy as possible.

+1!!

To precious328:

Also, SWG was not a failure in the eyes of the devs who made it (Raph Koster has said the opposite), nor was it a financial failure.  It probably could have been even more financially successful if not pushed to release sooner than it was ready.  Also it had a terrible marking campaign compared to AAA MMOs today.

Also, I would hang out with other friends I think these ones might have a bad influence on you.

Well the way I see it is SWG was buggy as hell yet people still played it,  kinda like SW:Tor in that regard.  People like the damnedest things.

I can imagine a scenario where a game about 'the journey' is released, and the boards light up with 'xp is slow to hide thin content' -or- 'xp is slow so they can milk your sub for as long as possible to hit max'.

I remember these complaints from EQ anyway, and I'd imagine history would repeat itself.

In addition, I'm not sure devs consciously are trying to push you to an endgame they don't really have at release. If devs really thought all we wanted was end game, they'd focus on developing endgame and thin out the journey.

Honestly, I think they simply have miscalculated. It doesn't make sense to have a fast xp curve in these recently released games whenthere is no end game. I can't discribe it as anything other than an out and out mistake.

Of course, to hit the perfect balance between lengthening the levelling process while not making it seem that the game is full of timesinks toward that aim, well.....let's just say it hasn't happened often in mmo history, and the ones that did have it, only held it temporarily (EQ/WoW for ex.).

I think all in all, SWTOR is a decently paced game, and it seems that there is enough to explore and do to tied me over until the content is ahead of me, and if not, there are plenty of fun mmo's out there right now I can choose from.

Which, in the end is still a better option to have than the old days. Now, at least when we are waiting for new content, there is something else to play.

Originally posted by precious328

They didn't even bother to look at the horrible track record of Pure Theme Parks, e.g., Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, etc.

I think you're wrong on this note.  First things first, Age of Conan was not released at first as a theme park.  It only had enough quests to get you to level 30ish and by that point you were PvPing or grinding your way to level cap.  People leveled as guilds in PvP, not as individuals being directed through a leveling path.  The same is true in Aion in which you had a problem of leveling gaps.  I know they're designed as theme parks... but they didn't end up being.

Star Trek Online is also a game that wasn't a pure theme park.  It had a free universe to explore and tones of random missions you could do.  People didn't like how open it was.  After a year the developers made it even more sandboxish by implementing the armory so that players could invent their own missions.  Star Trek Online is an example of one of the few sandboxes to come out in recent years.... definitely not a pure theme park by any means.

People make this unfortunate mistake of assuming that every game that is totally instanced is theme park and all games that  are free roam are sandbox.  This would of course lead people to believe that Minecraft is actually a theme park.

I will also say I think you're wrong on Bioware not learning their lesson.  While all of the games you listed launched with incomplete theme park experiences (which disappointed people heavily) SWTOR came with not one but eight unique leveling experiences with no gaps in them.

SWTOR also did a very unique launch, they only launched a limited number of servers, they only allowed so many people into the game and they gated their growth heavily.

If anything what Bioware learned from all of this is that you can't produe enough content to appease the 5% of the game who will consume everything in under a week.  You have to try and stretch out the content you have the best you can.  My best example of this is how the game slows down ever so slightly when you group with people to gain the all so prescious social experience.

Originally posted by troublmaker

I think you're wrong on this note.  First things first, Age of Conan was not released at first as a theme park.  It only had enough quests to get you to level 30ish and by that point you were PvPing or grinding your way to level cap.  People leveled as guilds in PvP, not as individuals being directed through a leveling path.  The same is true in Aion in which you had a problem of leveling gaps.  I know they're designed as theme parks... but they didn't end up being.

You really don't understand what a Themepark or Sandbox game is if you think that quests are the difference.

TOR was he same old same old mmo from the past excluding full VO. Thats it. Today if you are not innovating for the better then you will get bashed on a daily basis. it is just that simple.