Originally posted by BilboDoggins

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Well, mmos are all about community - other people you play the game with. That's where the true progression lies. Think about it...

Huh?

I understand what community in an MMO means and how a great comunity can affect a game. Been playing since 96' and was there for the amazing early days of EQ1 when community really made that game shine.

That being said, it has absolutely nothing to do with character progression.

He actually didn't ay 'character' progression, he said 'true' progression, and TBH I agree.

Alternate progression includes; Traits, Attribute points, skill points to unlock skills and cosmetic gear hunting. Also BUILD WARS.

Originally posted by wowfan1996

Face it, there's no such thing as "progression". It's just an euphemism for grind. And grind can never be good.

Yes it can. Depend on whether you enjoy grind or not, and even what type of grind it is.

Grind can, indeed, be good.

Oh boy...people are seriously heavily indoctrinated with that carrot on the stick thing they're actually lookin for it O.o

Originally posted by wowfan1996

Face it, there's no such thing as "progression". It's just an euphemism for grind. And grind can never be good.

I don't agree with this. Some of the best MMO's I've played were fun to "grind" in.

I've got my eye on GW2, but I can imagine one of the things that would prevent me from buying it is lack of character progression. Example, W v W is probably where I'd spend most of my time. But if the game doesn't have some sort of system like DAOC (Realm Ranks/Abilities), that will be massive turn off for me.

I don't really play an MMO so that I can have character progression, I just look for a good time with friends and a place to meet new ones. Getting gear that looks different, and seeing different places is enough progression for me. I've never been excited over gear based on the stats it gives me, and I can live without AA. 

Just try to play the game to have a fun time.

The character progression is one of my main concerns as well.

Progression

Vertical progression is level based and gearl locked to level progression.  So GW2 will have vertical progression to level 80.

Horizontal progression is character advancement at cap through AA, gear, or anything that makes your character more powerful at a given level.  It's also known as side-progression in some game (LotRO for example).  I can see skill, trait, and gear augments as being a form of progression so that is good news to players like me who like that sort of thing.

If that progression is shallow or quick and insignificant the players who enjoy progression oriented play will probably get bored sooner than traditional gear treadmill games.  Believe it or not, despite the cries against grind, I feel there are a lot of those people out there. If there is some sort of deep meaningful progression then I think the game has the potential to pull in a lot of diverse player types.

Grind

I would like to make a couple points about grind.  GW1 has an insane amount of grind.  The amount of hours spent in the game to get top tier titles requires a significant grind.  One doesn't just pop to the top tier drunkard title.  Trying to get master cartographer in Tyria without using an overlay cheat can require moving through the entire map several times.  ANet (and its parent company NCSoft) is no stranger to massive grind.

Grind is necessary in any MMO to keep players engaged towards goal completion.  If there is no grind, there is timeline to achievement and players get everything fast.  There is no sense of accomplishment in this.  No one cares about pretty much anything at the extreme end of "handout" type of game play.

Just because the game doesn't hav a gear grind doesn't mean it won't have a grind.  What makes this palatable, in my opinion, is that the rewards for the grind are satisfying and that the repetitive task is acceptable or enjoyable.  This brings me back to progression: if the grind is mostly (or only) for fluff and titles that won't satisfy me at all.  If the grind actually increases character power or adds convenience then it will satisfy me.  I wonder how many other players will be in a similar situation.

Community

You never know what a community will be like until a game launches.  Guild Wars 1 had a great community for the first 2 or 3 years, but it has a horrid community now.  The deplorability of the WoW community, or any other game for that matter, is over-stated and really varies radically by server.

ANet has always been a favorites player.  They favor GWGuru and their "go to" fansites.  They have favorite top tier GvG guilds that have influenced and shaped game mechanics and the meta.  ANet doesn't foster a great community.  They foster a "good old boy" community system.  Any good community that comes out of GW2 won't be because ANet is the great community enhancer, but because players on server clusters make the effort to create a great gaming environment despite the buddy system ANet favors.

We have 3 complete GW accounts in our family and they are interested in GW2.  I'm a little hesitant to plonk down $150 - $200 (or more?) on 3 new GW2 accounts until I see how some of these things pan out.

This thread is just another whining QQ thread because GW2 won't have RAIDing in it.  I am sorry, every game does not have to be a progression gear grind, live with it. 

Originally posted by Azaria

This thread is just another whining QQ thread because GW2 won't have RAIDing in it.  I am sorry, every game does not have to be a progression gear grind, live with it. 

Character progression doesn't have to be tied with raiding.  It's funny you say that when the posters above point out how grouping will pay out over the solo player.  Isn't that what raiding is about, getting paid for group play at the expense of solo play?  No this isn't raiding, it is about having some sort of signficant progression outside of fluff titles.

So if the game has no progression what does it offer?

I can get over it by not buying it.  Why should I spend my money on this game?  Why shouldn't I spend my money on another game instead?  There is only so much gaming time and only so many gaming dollars to go around.

The OP does have a point. Even though many will just enjoy all the variety and action GW2 has planned, a lot of people will end up at max level and wonder what will keep them playing. And I know there is no subs and people will try other games and come back because it is free after box purchase, but low playing population is not good for those playing. If GW2 delivers on all the features and added content they are promising, I don't see this as a problem, because leveling should fun enough to try many alts.

As for the community, I think that guilds will be very important to be a good micro-community. With soloing and being able to do DE's without grouping, overall community could suffer. Not to be old-schoolish, but in EQ you pretty much had to group to level and do majority of content, so if you were an a-hole you got weeded out and had trouble playing. It was forced (not saying that was a good thing, but it did kind of enforce some civility and coop). But guilds will be important in world v world pvp for strategy, etc and i believe DE's will be much better doing with group of friends or guildees for strategy, RP, tactics, etc, while joining in solo would feel more like spg action game.

I don't know how this game can live up to the high expectations they have built, but if they deliver on a high percentage of their stated goals for the game, it should be a great game.

That's what I loved about Guild Wars. The game STARTED at max level. Everything before then was pretty much a tutorial, getting you used to the game before throwing some nasty as hell challenges at you (and that was before you even had hard mode to deal with)

For Factions this was more true than ever. The second you got off the starting island, EVERYTHING was max level and higher.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

The character progression is one of my main concerns as well.

Progression

Vertical progression is level based and gearl locked to level progression.  So GW2 will have vertical progression to level 80.

Horizontal progression is character advancement at cap through AA, gear, or anything that makes your character more powerful at a given level.  It's also known as side-progression in some game (LotRO for example).  I can see skill, trait, and gear augments as being a form of progression so that is good news to players like me who like that sort of thing.

Since most of your skills are weapon based, the only ones that you'd be able to progress in is Utlity and Elite skills, and while you may be able to get new ones from dungeons, Arena-Net has never been the kind of developer to put in different levels of the same skill you have to grind for. Progressively better gear augments are another thing thats not likely to be in the game, because that would give an unfair advantage to those who are at the top of the progression vs. those who are at the bottom, and we'll start seeing the "LFG Rank 8 HA" again. Traits are like talents, if you've played any other game, except they're unlocked a bit differently (you have to do class quests to get them, they dont just appear) so talents getting better just because you kill Zhaitain X amount of times? Not happening.

If that progression is shallow or quick and insignificant the players who enjoy progression oriented play will probably get bored sooner than traditional gear treadmill games.  Believe it or not, despite the cries against grind, I feel there are a lot of those people out there. If there is some sort of deep meaningful progression then I think the game has the potential to pull in a lot of diverse player types.

Don't worry, progression players will have plenty to satisfy their E-Peen in GW2. Most people who do "progression" raids and such, want to feel better than everyone else, so they get all their BiS gear and they down bosses that are impossible without it. However, in GW2 Arena-net has said they don't want gear to get better as players get farther in dungeons, so they made gear progress in looks instead. Example: a ranger comes into your group with a full orrian set (http://haikai.net/gallery/GW2_Orrian.jpg) and you automatically know he's a badass and a really good player. You didn't have to look at his talents, or his skills, or his titles or his gear to see if its his BiS, his gear has the definitive look of Orrian so you know his skill easily.

Grind

I would like to make a couple points about grind.  GW1 has an insane amount of grind.  The amount of hours spent in the game to get top tier titles requires a significant grind.  One doesn't just pop to the top tier drunkard title.  Trying to get master cartographer in Tyria without using an overlay cheat can require moving through the entire map several times.  ANet (and its parent company NCSoft) is no stranger to massive grind.

While I can't say there will be absolutely NO grind, I can say that they've significantly reduced grind. It takes the same time to get from level 19-20 as it does to 79-80. Dungeons drop gear tokens, so if you kill a boss, everyone in the group gets an armor or a weapon token, that they can trade in for any of that dungeons gear (you dont need a shoulder token for a shoulder piece is what i mean).

Grind is necessary in any MMO to keep players engaged towards goal completion.  If there is no grind, there is timeline to achievement and players get everything fast.  There is no sense of accomplishment in this.  No one cares about pretty much anything at the extreme end of "handout" type of game play.

In your first paragraph of this section, you talk about how much you hate grind, in this paragraph you talk about how much you think it's necessary. Kinda weird.

Anyway, why do we need grind? Why is this necessary grind mentality so prevalent? Here's an idea, I know it'll seem new, but don't get scared: How about they put in content that's actually HARD? "We've had to tone down the Big boss fights and Dungeons for the people who played through them, because they were just having a wipe fest. We also had developer's in there giving demo players a hand, and in release there wont be so much hand-holding."

The easiest solution to not having grind, is to make your content actually require skill to complete, there IS a sense of accomplishment if you downed that boss because you didnt just not stand in the fire and stare at green bars all day.

Just because the game doesn't hav a gear grind doesn't mean it won't have a grind.  What makes this palatable, in my opinion, is that the rewards for the grind are satisfying and that the repetitive task is acceptable or enjoyable.  This brings me back to progression: if the grind is mostly (or only) for fluff and titles that won't satisfy me at all.  If the grind actually increases character power or adds convenience then it will satisfy me.  I wonder how many other players will be in a similar situation.

 

Community

You never know what a community will be like until a game launches.  Guild Wars 1 had a great community for the first 2 or 3 years, but it has a horrid community now.  The deplorability of the WoW community, or any other game for that matter, is over-stated and really varies radically by server.

ANet has always been a favorites player.  They favor GWGuru and their "go to" fansites.  They have favorite top tier GvG guilds that have influenced and shaped game mechanics and the meta.  ANet doesn't foster a great community.  They foster a "good old boy" community system.  Any good community that comes out of GW2 won't be because ANet is the great community enhancer, but because players on server clusters make the effort to create a great gaming environment despite the buddy system ANet favors.

 Do you know why they currently do the "good old boy" community system? I'd say it's because the GW1 community has mostly moved on, and the ones that are left and active ARE their "pet" guilds, and that makes the guilds seem like "pet" guilds because the reduced GW1 team relies on them to learn about OP builds and game issues.

The reason why GWGuru seems favored, is because Anet doesn't feel they need to use resources to host and monitor a forum, when they could be using the same resources to help develop the game. Besides, players are going to make fan forums anyway, why not just endorse one and you'll have a forum where you post (devs post in GW2 Guru all the time) and one that fans feel is theirs.

We have 3 complete GW accounts in our family and they are interested in GW2.  I'm a little hesitant to plonk down $150 - $200 (or more?) on 3 new GW2 accounts until I see how some of these things pan out.

My recommendation to you? Get in one of the open beta weekends, use it like a demo, if you feel that the game doesn't live up to your standards after you've played it for awhile, then by all means don't buy it, it's your choice not mine :)

Originally posted by wrathzilla

Originally posted by Torvaldr

 (http://haikai.net/gallery/GW2_Orrian.jpg)

My recommendation to you? Get in one of the open beta weekends, use it like a demo, if you feel that the game doesn't live up to your standards after you've played it for awhile, then by all means don't buy it, it's your choice not mine :)

 

Wow, I had never seen that image. On-topic: Nice post, good suggestion at the end for anyone with similar fears.

Originally posted by wrathzilla

Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

SNIP

 

That medium armor you linked looks amazing. Glad I'm into the ranger class with that on offer.

Wow, some of you really practice the power of avoidance. The OP's question is simple: Will there be any deep and significant form of developing his character and making him more powerful after reaching level 80? Stat allocation, skill selection, and gear choice has nothing to do with progression and development. It has to do with optimization.

BTW, resorting to arguments like: "Oh Guild Wars 2 isn't your type of game. There are loads of other games out there for you." Well, excuse me, but Dungeons and Dragons, the game that consolidated and formally established the RPG genre, considers character progression a pivotal part of the experience. People don't play RPG's for twich-based gameplay, that's what FPS's are for. RPG's are about developing characters and seeing them grow.

http://haikai.net/guildwars.html is where I got that image. They're from a freelance artist that did in game renders for GW2 and has a bunch of armor sets on his site. :D

To stealth, Why does progression have to mean that the farther you progress the easier the game becomes?

Think about WOW, once you had your BiS gear, all the raids/heroics were EXTREMELY easy except for maybe 1-2 bosses.

And, if you went to a level 30 zone as a level 85 you'd one shot everything, in GW2 neither of these things happens.

Progression is by looks, read my really long post in red above :)

PVE progression:

- Full explorable mode instance clears.

- Large scale DE finished.

- Achievements.

- Traits.

- Crafting.

- Personal Story

- Personal house / district

- WvWvW PVE achievements

- Exploration achievements

- Karma points

PVP progression:

- "Scenario" Ladder Rating.

- WvWvW ladder and realm pride.

- Karma

It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.

Originally posted by wrathzilla

<snip>

Character progression has to do with character growth, character advancement, becoming more powerful. Skill/Gear selection and attribute allocation are merely optimizations not progression.

Originally posted by Rivalen

PVE progression:

- Full explorable mode instance clears.

- Large scale DE finished.

- Achievements.

- Traits.

- Crafting.

- Personal Story

- Personal house / district

- WvWvW PVE achievements

- Exploration achievements

- Karma points

 

PVP progression:

- "Scenario" Ladder Rating.

- WvWvW ladder and realm pride.

- Karma

 

It's more then most games...i fail to see the problem here, is it the lack of raids? Because large scale DEs should assimilate that level of progression.

Listed like that, and that's just at launch..it's more than what I'm getting from SWTOR or Rift and I like these games just not enough to stay subbed past the 2-3 month mark.  Just reading this list I'm already jonesing for GW2.  Can't wait.