Originally posted by Teala

Glad this guy is out of making MMO's, he is better off making the social games he is now involved in. 

With many a dev leaving this genre, to pursue that market, I'd be mindful of throwing statements like this around. That is, if you like MMO's being available for you to play or write about. Blaming one guy or a few for the state of this genre is ridiculous, the fact of the matter is the market is dictated by the revenue that comes in from the consumer, considering these games sell far more than "others" blame the people who keep putting money into things they have no interest in.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Littlebomb

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

 

 

Lesson Nine

 

He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game." 

 

His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want." 

 

Why do we need to blame anyone about a game?  Just move on with your life.

I think the reason you see alot of complaining myself included is because some people put alot of faith and expectations in this game and they're now let down by the outcome.

Also I had to buy a 2nd copy on Dec 20th because of some mistake Origin/BW made so I feel I stil lhave another month of complaining to do considering I dropped 120$ plus tax on these corporate tools.

The real blame should be placed on bad corporate structure that is literally slowly killing the USA. I just watched this about CEO's giving themselves bonuses even if they go bankrupt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDIVXuv_UNY&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ&index=2&feature=plcp

Originally posted by Littlebomb

Originally posted by itgrowls

 He dismissed those who had but didn't, and suggested that this stems from "forgetting our object is not to keep people as long as humanly possible, but to provide entertainment." When it comes to grinding, "they will do it, but they will hate you." 

 

WOW just wow, are you reading this fanbois? This is the reason why people like me refuse to play SWTOR because despite what he claimed here, SWTOR was based on the grind system and it is done so purposefully to keep you subbed for as long as you possibly can be. It's the same model as WoW uses to this day. Don't like questing we'll throw in some VO's even tho the whole game wasn't converted to VO's, just a solo questline. Don't like solo questline end game, we'll throw in some dailies and make that gear better then the crafted gear. See my point? The longer they can keep the subs coming the more they will claim success despite the design flaws, and if the players don't like it let them leave because ~they'll only be bashing the game anyways~ which is his second lie.

Demanding higher quality has somehow turned in some people's twisted minds into something terrible or wrong. And somehow we've been convinced as a society that being an informed consumer is somehow a bad thing.

well said

If people would actually read the whole thing he simply says.......consumers don't really know what they want.

My favorite part though is that they are'nt concerned with making a virtual world..........no wonder the game is so heavily instanced.

I saw more loading screens leveling to 50 on my shadow  than on every single player game I've played all year.

This is like reading a executives idea of what people want. Give them apples and oranges.....no bannana's though that's too many choices.

 

LOL at too many choices. I don't care what studies show..........choices are good.

  1) if you posted the part you ment rather then a snippet about deleting characters in WoW it might make more sense

   2) If you agree with the poster you quoted then you obviosuly have not played SW:tor and thus your opinion based on no experience is worthless. if you have played Sw:tor with its fast leveling you know you can't stand there and say the game was made to milk subscriptions with long grinds. making it to 50 in days for hardcores or in a single month for casuals is very possible.

  3) SW:tor was always advertised as a themepark never a sandbox why is it your disappointed after all this time it wasn't developed as a sandbox? like it or hate it . The sandbox crowd waas not the players SW:tor was developed for coming here and trolling about it not being a sandbox just makes us wonder where you've been all these years its been in developement.

  Do i agree with everything he said, no, but at the same time i do understand the world of gaming isn't a majority of hardcore players. Games are made for all types. Games like Diablo 3 are not made as deep thinking games but simply for hack and slash fun. Sw:tor is not a deep thinking game IMO nore totally hack and slash but somewhere inbetween. Most of us really don't have time between jobs and family anymore to go on 12 hour long dungeon raids or to live 24/7 in virtual worlds. EA/bioware went for the majority not the minority. (read lessen 10 I think it was) The world is made of all kinds of people and every game made is not made just for one player type. sucks when the games not talored to your play style . better luck next game.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Teala

Glad this guy is out of making MMO's, he is better off making the social games he is now involved in. 

With many a dev leaving this genre, to pursue that market, I'd be mindful of throwing statements like this around. That is, if you like MMO's being available for you to play or write about. Blaming one guy or a few for the state of this genre is ridiculous, the fact of the matter is the market is dictated by the revenue that comes in from the consumer, considering these games sell far more than "others" blame the people who keep putting money into things they have no interest in.

 

 

After reading about him, he has no place making MMO's.

Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by Littlebomb

Originally posted by itgrowls

 He dismissed those who had but didn't, and suggested that this stems from "forgetting our object is not to keep people as long as humanly possible, but to provide entertainment." When it comes to grinding, "they will do it, but they will hate you." 

 

WOW just wow, are you reading this fanbois? This is the reason why people like me refuse to play SWTOR because despite what he claimed here, SWTOR was based on the grind system and it is done so purposefully to keep you subbed for as long as you possibly can be. It's the same model as WoW uses to this day. Don't like questing we'll throw in some VO's even tho the whole game wasn't converted to VO's, just a solo questline. Don't like solo questline end game, we'll throw in some dailies and make that gear better then the crafted gear. See my point? The longer they can keep the subs coming the more they will claim success despite the design flaws, and if the players don't like it let them leave because ~they'll only be bashing the game anyways~ which is his second lie.

Demanding higher quality has somehow turned in some people's twisted minds into something terrible or wrong. And somehow we've been convinced as a society that being an informed consumer is somehow a bad thing.

well said

If people would actually read the whole thing he simply says.......consumers don't really know what they want.

My favorite part though is that they are'nt concerned with making a virtual world..........no wonder the game is so heavily instanced.

I saw more loading screens leveling to 50 on my shadow  than on every single player game I've played all year.

This is like reading a executives idea of what people want. Give them apples and oranges.....no bannana's though that's too many choices.

 

LOL at too many choices. I don't care what studies show..........choices are good.

  1) if you posted the part you ment rather then a snippet about deleting characters in WoW it might make more sense

   2) If you agree with the poster you quoted then you obviosuly have not played SW:tor and thus your opinion based on no experience is worthless. if you have played Sw:tor with its fast leveling you know you can't stand there and say the game was made to milk subscriptions with long grinds. making it to 50 in days for hardcores or in a single month for casuals is very possible.

  3) SW:tor was always advertised as a themepark never a sandbox why is it your disappointed after all this time it wasn't developed as a sandbox? like it or hate it . The sandbox crowd waas not the players SW:tor was developed for coming here and trolling about it not being a sandbox just makes us wonder where you've been all these years its been in developement.

  Do i agree with everything he said, no, but at the same time i do understand the world of gaming isn't a majority of hardcore players. games are made for all types. Games like Diablo 3 are not made as deep thinking games but simply for hack and slash fun. Sw:tor is not a deep thinking game IMO nor-totally hack and slash but somewhere inbetween. Most of us really don't have time between jobs and family anymore to got on 12 hour dungeon raids or to live 24/7 in virtual worlds. EA/bioware went for the majority not the minority. (read lessen 10 I think it was) The world is made of all kinda of people and every game made is not made just for one player type. sucks when the games not talored to your play style . better luck next game.

I work as well, I'm 36 in march.

I don't want old school mmo's with incredible time sinks either but that's not the problem with SWTOR's. 

The problem is it is literally missing entire game systems and is unfinished.

And yes I have stated several times that I have a 50 shadow named Godmoney on The Prophecy of the Five server.

I'm not paying for a product built on a bad engine with bad design philosophy though.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Teala

Glad this guy is out of making MMO's, he is better off making the social games he is now involved in. 

With many a dev leaving this genre, to pursue that market, I'd be mindful of throwing statements like this around. That is, if you like MMO's being available for you to play or write about. Blaming one guy or a few for the state of this genre is ridiculous, the fact of the matter is the market is dictated by the revenue that comes in from the consumer, considering these games sell far more than "others" blame the people who keep putting money into things they have no interest in.

 

 

After reading about him, he has no place making MMO's.

Do enlighten...

Originally posted by Littlebomb

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Littlebomb

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

 

 

Lesson Nine

 

He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game." 

 

His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want." 

 

Why do we need to blame anyone about a game?  Just move on with your life.

I think the reason you see alot of complaining myself included is because some people put alot of faith and expectations in this game and they're now let down by the outcome.

 

Also I had to buy a 2nd copy on Dec 20th because of some mistake Origin/BW made so I feel I stil lhave another month of complaining to do considering I dropped 120$ plus tax on these corporate tools.

 

The real blame should be placed on bad corporate structure that is literally slowly killing the USA. I just watched this about CEO's giving themselves bonuses even if they go bankrupt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDIVXuv_UNY&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ&index=2&feature=plcp

  Ah so you bought the hype, and drank the Koolaid and now your looking for someone to blame other then yourself for believing in advertisement 100%? Consider it a important life lesson learned. Nothing ever lives up to the hype.

  Yeah the coperate structure in the US sucks, but saying someone forced you to buy 2 copies of the game sounds more like denial, perhaps you should accept maybe just alittle of the blame there?

"Lesson Four

One thing that WoW is frequently recognized for is its solo play. Walton's fourth lesson was: support this, because gamers want it. According to Walton, older games that forced players into groups missed the point: "[the] truth is that people soloed every game to the best they could and when they couldn't anymore, they quit. Embracing solo play that was a true innovation for WoW."

It was pointed out that players who hit the level cap are pretty much forced to group in WOW; Walton still felt like the game "feels like it's a level playing field for all people at that level" and thus isn't quite as sinful as it could be. He offered a Blizzard quote on the solo issue -- "We look at soloing as our casual game." Given the weight of the phrase "casual game" in 2007, you can bet the audience was scribbling that one down. "

Well by God they supported solo play like no other MMO I've seen before. So much you can barely call it an MMO. Not worth $15 sub.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Teala

Glad this guy is out of making MMO's, he is better off making the social games he is now involved in. 

With many a dev leaving this genre, to pursue that market, I'd be mindful of throwing statements like this around. That is, if you like MMO's being available for you to play or write about. Blaming one guy or a few for the state of this genre is ridiculous, the fact of the matter is the market is dictated by the revenue that comes in from the consumer, considering these games sell far more than "others" blame the people who keep putting money into things they have no interest in.

 

 

And where is the evidence?

Can you name one AAA Sandbox for example?

Don't waste your time thinking cause there is none.

So how can you tell the market is responsible for the state of the MMO industry  if no one has the proof that players won't like a AAA Sandbox MMO?

The only certainty is that in the last 6 years every Theme Park MMO made after WoW was a huge fail compared to Blizzard game................the market is not liking the Theme Park MMOs, that's the only conclusion.

Maybe is time to experiment with something else?

The MMORPG community is waiting for the Skyrim of MMORPGs, the only people who didn't get it yet are the developers unfortunately.

There is a huge market for a Sandbox MMORPGs.

Sandbox is often associated with mindless grind and hardcore gaming, but that's not how I would define it, if it's well done it awon't be any hardcore than any other Theme Park (Don't tell me that WoW endgame isn't hardcore)

The first company which will dare to make one will get all the benefits, exactly the same way WoW ripped the benefits for tmaking the first good AAA Theme Park MMO.

Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by itgrowls

 He dismissed those who had but didn't, and suggested that this stems from "forgetting our object is not to keep people as long as humanly possible, but to provide entertainment." When it comes to grinding, "they will do it, but they will hate you." 

 

WOW just wow, are you reading this fanbois? This is the reason why people like me refuse to play SWTOR because despite what he claimed here, SWTOR was based on the grind system and it is done so purposefully to keep you subbed for as long as you possibly can be. It's the same model as WoW uses to this day. Don't like questing we'll throw in some VO's even tho the whole game wasn't converted to VO's, just a solo questline. Don't like solo questline end game, we'll throw in some dailies and make that gear better then the crafted gear. See my point? The longer they can keep the subs coming the more they will claim success despite the design flaws, and if the players don't like it let them leave because ~they'll only be bashing the game anyways~ which is his second lie.

Demanding higher quality has somehow turned in some people's twisted minds into something terrible or wrong. And somehow we've been convinced as a society that being an informed consumer is somehow a bad thing.

  I'd have to say you obviously have never played SW:tor. the leveling is extremely fast (see recent Locast killed my SW:tor thread)  You can not possibly say they made SW:Tor to be a long grind because it just isn't. One can easily enough get one character to max level of 50 in one month (thus not having to subscrib)

   So your whole arguement that EA/Bioware made a MMO grind game / time sink that will keep you subscribed for as long as possible iss either lies or mis information from lack of any experience

  If you actually read the article you'd see he was stating high quality not grind is what they want. and while i can see how SW:tor maybe too themepark, not sandbox, not deep enough, or simply to lineir for some players. Saying its a grind to keep one subscribed as long as possible when leveling is so fast is just plan ignorant 

 

It's grindy, dunno what game you played. You pick up quests exactly like you do in WoW, pick 10 quests run for 10 min, grind mobs for 10 mins rinse and repeat. It's a grind it's boring no matter how fast. The dialogues are like sugar coating the fucking grind.

You have to travel over unnecessary, long expanses to get to your target. In other words a time sink. Let's take this for instance: Have you ever seen a film where two characters are going to travel from A to B via car and they show the entire fucking route? No they show a short dialogue and then they cut to the destination. Why? Because no one in their right mind would want to fucking see that. 

Let me just quote his last sentense:"If a game is to be successful with a broader audience, it has to be more fun, more directed, more accessible, and faster-paced. "

Fast paced?? So he solves that by making the game with the SLOOOOOOOOOOWEST gameplay in the world ..?

Nice tactic, Mr. Walton.

Originally posted by Xstyles

Let me just quote his last sentense:"If a game is to be successful with a broader audience, it has to be more fun, more directed, more accessible, and faster-paced. "

Fast paced?? So he solves that by making the game with the SLOOOOOOOOOOWEST gameplay in the world ..?

Nice tactic, Mr. Walton.

Final Fantasy is upset at your misconception and would like to retain its title thus far.

Originally posted by Littlebomb

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Littlebomb

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

 

 

Lesson Nine

 

He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game." 

 

His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want." 

 

Why do we need to blame anyone about a game?  Just move on with your life.

I think the reason you see alot of complaining myself included is because some people put alot of faith and expectations in this game and they're now let down by the outcome.

 

Also I had to buy a 2nd copy on Dec 20th because of some mistake Origin/BW made so I feel I stil lhave another month of complaining to do considering I dropped 120$ plus tax on these corporate tools.

 

The real blame should be placed on bad corporate structure that is literally slowly killing the USA. I just watched this about CEO's giving themselves bonuses even if they go bankrupt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDIVXuv_UNY&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ&index=2&feature=plcp

Nobody forced me to do anything. I never said that.

And I did show my lack of support by unsubbing and posting my opinion on forums. 

I'd love to read this guys opinion of Minecraft, and how it blows many of his theories out of the water, lol.

Originally posted by Dredphyre

I'd love to read this guys opinion of Minecraft, and how it blows many of his theories out of the water, lol.

Hush puppy. He knows best, as is evident by SWTOR's massively increasing sub numbers.

Being a mere player you are not qualified to enter such a lofty discussion as whether a game is "fun" or not. Leave it to your betters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcHdF1eHhgc (the bit at 2:10 but the whole clip is pretty close to what we have in AAA mmo scene at the moment)

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Dredphyre

I'd love to read this guys opinion of Minecraft, and how it blows many of his theories out of the water, lol.

Hush puppy. He knows best, as is evident by SWTOR's massively increasing sub numbers.

Being a mere player you are not qualified to enter such a lofty discussion as whether a game is "fun" or not. Leave it to your betters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcHdF1eHhgc (the bit at 2:10 but the whole clip is pretty close to what we have in AAA mmo scene at the moment)

haha. I suspect he'd try to shoe-horn his ideas into tortorously fitting Minecraft.  

"Players only like a few choices" would be explained by only have a pick ax, shovel, or bare hands to dig. He'd avoid the reality that players have pretty much unlimited choice in how they approach the game.

"But it's not MMO" is another excuse...except that people have made their own servers with their own rules set.

Gordon Walton was behind two games that, if you know them, are the two obvious influences behind TOR:

EQ2

City of Heroes

lesson 5 is about ui and we get one of the least responsive UI in recent mmorpg history

lesson 7 strong pvp.ha.

Originally posted by Teala

I edited my post.   I read up on him.  I think he probably left Bioware because he knew they were going to release the game before it was ready.

Actually, he left to go join Playdom (i.e., Disney). Both he and Raph Koster are there now, doing social games.

Whatever the case is, SWTOR is pretty bad.