http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

Not sure what deleting characters in wow to free up name space has to do with SW:tor?

Hes saying that the concept of "You can't please everyone" and that you should have realistic expectations and only make honest and realistic promises is a bad thing.

It really is not controversial.

Just smart. You promise a years content and have people run through what you have in 30-60 days and you get nailed for lying. Just say we will have 60 days of content for most people and will release more as we go. So play the game have fun and then come back when we deliver more fun for your dollars.

So leave them with good feelings about your game and they will come back, if you lie or leave people with bad feelings you most likely will never see tham again.

Interesting read... don't agree with it all but he made some fair points, especially on the subject of casual vs hardcore.

I might blame Gordon aka Tyrant if he still worked for EA-BioWare.

Personally I haven't had bad experience when he was actually in control.

When he suddenly leaves a company... I've had bad experiences after  ...

The last squadron phase of testing started in December 2010.   I'm not sure how long that ran and its testers often used signatures of "all the way to Alderaan".  *edit note* I had a work assignment so I was gone from end of December until the start of the March phase *end note*

Gordon left EA-BioWare in Feb of 2011... and general testing (no longer defined by squadron number on invites) began in March.  I actually liked the game much better in many ways at the time (the way crafting worked... far more diverse selection of moddable gear.. and advanced classes actually being somewhat unique and not total clones.. to name a couple).   At that point we actually had communication in beta from the devs.

Then all of that was stripped out or changed and the communication became non existant.   Which was after Gordon left.. oddly enough.

He was the lead on SWG when the CU was in development and that was when we actually had communication going back and fourth... then one day he was simply gone and we found out the CU we'd get wasn't the one he was describing to us.  Along with the communication going out the airlock.   He was almost immediantly hired by BioWare (before EA owned them) to start up the Austin Studio.

One could say there is a pattern there... but maybe he is the one at fault.. who knows.

Before SWG he was Tyrant at UO and I don't remember any bad things.   Tho I honestly have no memory of why he left UO to work on SWG...

NVM - he left Bio/EA in march of 2011.  

Originally posted by Teala

Did this guy help make SWTOR?  Because if he did, he threw his "How To" Lessons out the door.  

First read Antarious' post. Second realize this is one of the main guys that brought JTL to SWG, this guy knows how to do his job, and he's very good at contributing toward player to dev communication. He left Bioware (for unknown reasons), we all know what that usually entails in this genre (creative difference).

Originally posted by Antarious

I might blame Gordon aka Tyrant if he still worked for EA-BioWare.

 

Personally I haven't had bad experience when he was actually in control.

 

When he suddenly leaves a company... I've had bad experiences after  ...

 

The last squadron phase of testing started in December 2010.   I'm not sure how long that ran and its testers often used signatures of "all the way to Alderaan".  *edit note* I had a work assignment so I was gone from end of December until the start of the March phase *end note*

 

Gordon left EA-BioWare in Feb of 2011... and general testing (no longer defined by squadron number on invites) began in March.  I actually liked the game much better in many ways at the time (the way crafting worked... far more diverse selection of moddable gear.. and advanced classes actually being somewhat unique and not total clones.. to name a couple).   At that point we actually had communication in beta from the devs.

 

Then all of that was stripped out or changed and the communication became non existant.   Which was after Gordon left.. oddly enough.

 

He was the lead on SWG when the CU was in development and that was when we actually had communication going back and fourth... then one day he was simply gone and we found out the CU we'd get wasn't the one he was describing to us.  Along with the communication going out the airlock.   He was almost immediantly hired by BioWare (before EA owned them) to start up the Austin Studio.

 

One could say there is a pattern there... but maybe he is the one at fault.. who knows.

 

Before SWG he was Tyrant at UO and I don't remember any bad things.   Tho I honestly have no memory of why he left UO to work on SWG...

well you obviously know alot more about the guy then I do so I'll take your word for it.

I just thought this read show's quite a few examples of a corporate attitude. "Your customers are idiots, don't listen to them. They want flavorless gruel and that is all they get. You can have bland gruel or flavorless gruel."

I mean if read that whole article it's pretty clear that the main leads are pretty clueless as to what a mmo players wants.

Here's my favorite part. 

Someone else pointed out that this is at odds with the idea of a virtual world, but it doesn't seem that Walton is interested in the virtual world aspect of MMOs so much as providing an enjoyable experience for gamers. He advised the audience to "think about your quest chains in WOW. Think about how they drug you through stuff, but you didn't feel like you were being drug through stuff. If you make it feel natural, most people will never notice that you're doing it."

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Teala

Did this guy help make SWTOR?  Because if he did, he threw his "How To" Lessons out the door.  

First read Antarious' post. Second realize this is one of the main guys that brought JTL to SWG, this guy knows how to do his job, and he's very good at contributing toward player to dev communication. He left Bioware (for unknown reasons), we all know what that usually entails in this genre (creative difference).

I edited my post.   I read up on him.  I think he probably left Bioware because he knew they were going to release the game before it was ready.

 He dismissed those who had but didn't, and suggested that this stems from "forgetting our object is not to keep people as long as humanly possible, but to provide entertainment." When it comes to grinding, "they will do it, but they will hate you." 

WOW just wow, are you reading this fanbois? This is the reason why people like me refuse to play SWTOR because despite what he claimed here, SWTOR was based on the grind system and it is done so purposefully to keep you subbed for as long as you possibly can be. It's the same model as WoW uses to this day. Don't like questing we'll throw in some VO's even tho the whole game wasn't converted to VO's, just a solo questline. Don't like solo questline end game, we'll throw in some dailies and make that gear better then the crafted gear. See my point? The longer they can keep the subs coming the more they will claim success despite the design flaws, and if the players don't like it let them leave because ~they'll only be bashing the game anyways~ which is his second lie.

Demanding higher quality has somehow turned in some people's twisted minds into something terrible or wrong. And somehow we've been convinced as a society that being an informed consumer is somehow a bad thing.

Originally posted by itgrowls

 He dismissed those who had but didn't, and suggested that this stems from "forgetting our object is not to keep people as long as humanly possible, but to provide entertainment." When it comes to grinding, "they will do it, but they will hate you." 

 

WOW just wow, are you reading this fanbois? This is the reason why people like me refuse to play SWTOR because despite what he claimed here, SWTOR was based on the grind system and it is done so purposefully to keep you subbed for as long as you possibly can be. It's the same model as WoW uses to this day. Don't like questing we'll throw in some VO's even tho the whole game wasn't converted to VO's, just a solo questline. Don't like solo questline end game, we'll throw in some dailies and make that gear better then the crafted gear. See my point? The longer they can keep the subs coming the more they will claim success despite the design flaws, and if the players don't like it let them leave because ~they'll only be bashing the game anyways~ which is his second lie.

Demanding higher quality has somehow turned in some people's twisted minds into something terrible or wrong. And somehow we've been convinced as a society that being an informed consumer is somehow a bad thing.

well said

If people would actually read the whole thing he simply says.......consumers don't really know what they want.

My favorite part though is that they are'nt concerned with making a virtual world..........no wonder the game is so heavily instanced.

I saw more loading screens leveling to 50 on my shadow  than on every single player game I've played all year.

This is like reading a executives idea of what people want. Give them apples and oranges.....no bannana's though that's too many choices.

LOL at too many choices. I don't care what studies show..........choices are good.

Glad this guy is out of making MMO's, he is better off making the social games he is now involved in. 

Originally posted by itgrowls

 He dismissed those who had but didn't, and suggested that this stems from "forgetting our object is not to keep people as long as humanly possible, but to provide entertainment." When it comes to grinding, "they will do it, but they will hate you." 

 

WOW just wow, are you reading this fanbois? This is the reason why people like me refuse to play SWTOR because despite what he claimed here, SWTOR was based on the grind system and it is done so purposefully to keep you subbed for as long as you possibly can be. It's the same model as WoW uses to this day. Don't like questing we'll throw in some VO's even tho the whole game wasn't converted to VO's, just a solo questline. Don't like solo questline end game, we'll throw in some dailies and make that gear better then the crafted gear. See my point? The longer they can keep the subs coming the more they will claim success despite the design flaws, and if the players don't like it let them leave because ~they'll only be bashing the game anyways~ which is his second lie.

Demanding higher quality has somehow turned in some people's twisted minds into something terrible or wrong. And somehow we've been convinced as a society that being an informed consumer is somehow a bad thing.

  I'd have to say you obviously have never played SW:tor. the leveling is extremely fast (see recent Locast killed my SW:tor thread)  You can not possibly say they made SW:Tor to be a long grind because it just isn't. One can easily enough get one character to max level of 50 in one month (thus not having to subscrib)

   So your whole arguement that EA/Bioware made a MMO grind game / time sink that will keep you subscribed for as long as possible iss either lies or mis information from lack of any experience

  If you actually read the article you'd see he was stating high quality not grind is what they want. and while i can see how SW:tor maybe too themepark, not sandbox, not deep enough, or simply to lineir for some players. Saying its a grind to keep one subscribed as long as possible when leveling is so fast is just plan ignorant 

Originally posted by Littlebomb

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

 

 

Lesson Nine

 

He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game." 

 

His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want." 

 

Basically a lecture on how to successfully make a WoW clone. Many of the issues he brings up are only relevant to the level/class based RPG with D&D derived stats and combat. The fact that he's considered an expert of the field and can't see possibilities beyond this archaic and tired paradigm just reinforces the notion that MMO development is at a very low point.

Originally posted by Littlebomb

well said

If people would actually read the whole thing he simply says.......consumers don't really know what they want.

My favorite part though is that they are'nt concerned with making a virtual world..........no wonder the game is so heavily instanced.

I saw more loading screens leveling to 50 on my shadow  than on every single player game I've played all year.

This is like reading a executives idea of what people want. Give them apples and oranges.....no bannana's though that's too many choices.

 

LOL at too many choices. I don't care what studies show..........choices are good.

I read the whole thing, he's basing his "informed" opinion on the demographic these bigger companies should be focused on to maximize their profits. His statement that let the hardcores who rush through quit, it won't change anything for the outcome of these games, which is basically 100% true. Should say everything about the point he was making.

Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by itgrowls

 He dismissed those who had but didn't, and suggested that this stems from "forgetting our object is not to keep people as long as humanly possible, but to provide entertainment." When it comes to grinding, "they will do it, but they will hate you." 

 

WOW just wow, are you reading this fanbois? This is the reason why people like me refuse to play SWTOR because despite what he claimed here, SWTOR was based on the grind system and it is done so purposefully to keep you subbed for as long as you possibly can be. It's the same model as WoW uses to this day. Don't like questing we'll throw in some VO's even tho the whole game wasn't converted to VO's, just a solo questline. Don't like solo questline end game, we'll throw in some dailies and make that gear better then the crafted gear. See my point? The longer they can keep the subs coming the more they will claim success despite the design flaws, and if the players don't like it let them leave because ~they'll only be bashing the game anyways~ which is his second lie.

Demanding higher quality has somehow turned in some people's twisted minds into something terrible or wrong. And somehow we've been convinced as a society that being an informed consumer is somehow a bad thing.

  I'd have to say you obviously have never played SW:tor. the leveling is extremely fast (see recent Locast killed my SW:tor thread)  You can not possibly say they made SW:Tor to be a long grind because it just isn't. One can easily enough get one character to max level of 50 in one month (thus not having to subscrib)

   So your whole arguement that EA/Bioware made a MMO grind game / time sink that will keep you subscribed for as long as possible iss either lies or mis information from lack of any experience

  If you actually read the article you'd see he was stating high quality not grind is what they want. and while i can see how SW:tor maybe too themepark, not sandbox, not deep enough, or simply to lineir for some players. Saying its a grind to keep one subscribed as long as possible when leveling is so fast is just plan ignorant 

 

I think what he is saying though is that the systems of the game were designed off of a grind model but you're right it is way to fast of a grind.

People had full pvp gear sets Super fast.

The leveling is arguably a little too fast.

But this doesn't change the fact that they still used old Grind methods for their systems. PVP gear is a great example especially that they included a RNG system into it.

They would have been better off doing what RIFT or WAR does. Making the player earn the gear through PVPing in the long term.

I mean there is no better example than SWTOR's uses 2 set's of gear just like every grind mmo. You have to grind pvp and pve gear.

The reason GW2 is going to rock the casual market place like League of LEgends does is because they're making it about the gameplay not this old school grind model that WOW made so popular.

Personally PVP stats and PVE stats killed mmo quite a bit for me.

Originally posted by Littlebomb

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

 

 

Lesson Nine

 

He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game." 

 

His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want." 

 

Why do we need to blame anyone about a game?  Just move on with your life.

Originally posted by Arawnite

Originally posted by Littlebomb

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

 

 

Lesson Nine

 

He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game." 

 

His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want." 

 

Basically a lecture on how to successfully make a WoW clone. Many of the issues he brings up are only relevant to the level/class based RPG with D&D derived stats and combat. The fact that he's considered an expert of the field and can't see possibilities beyond this archaic and tired paradigm just reinforces the notion that MMO development is at a very low point.

Yupp, it's sad to see that the blight of D&D still casts its long shadow over the genre...

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Arawnite

Originally posted by Littlebomb

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

 

 

Lesson Nine

 

He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game." 

 

His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want." 

 

Basically a lecture on how to successfully make a WoW clone. Many of the issues he brings up are only relevant to the level/class based RPG with D&D derived stats and combat. The fact that he's considered an expert of the field and can't see possibilities beyond this archaic and tired paradigm just reinforces the notion that MMO development is at a very low point.

Yupp, it's sad to see that the blight of D&D still casts its long shadow over the genre...

Really good point.