I just don't understand, why in the hell would they start nerfing classes in the first month of the game?

I have played a scoundrel and operative up to 50 (Scoundrel  about 5% from hitting 50) so far and to be very honest (op has battle masters gear on) what people are saying about them killing in three or 4 hits is not true (if you are a half way decent PvPer anot a pre 50 in blue/greens).

BW is catering to a good majority of whiners out there on the forums, a good majority of them were pre 50 individuals or people are all around terrible PvPers (99% of the ones whining on the forums didn't even realize with the 6 second knock down that ops get, all they have to do is hit their get free of incap button and they wouldn't lay on the ground like some free to the world woman in a cat house.

I see this game as going the same route that Warhammer is going/went and I am now starting to wonder if it's really worth subbinbg to until GW 2 hits the scene.

While I do enjoy the game for it's PvE and playing with friends, I do not want them to destroy PvP and PvP balance by messing with things in 1 month without properly researching "thoroughly" their classes ingame (the devs did not give stats on the Op, so called players did.

Again, I am noticing a trend with bioware's games and it's up setting Next classes to be nerfed and you can bet my forum dollar on this is BH and commando with the Sith Inq coming in next (but again, it shouldn't be this way).

By the way, for those that think this is the only class I play, I also have a BH 50, commando 30, and SI 25,  outside my 50 OP and 49 scoundrel.

Originally posted by Nergle

I just don't understand, why in the hell would they start nerfing classes in the first month of the game?

I have played a scoundrel and operative up to 50 (Scoundrel  about 5% from hitting 50) so far and to be very honest (op has battle masters gear on) what people are saying about them killing in three or 4 hits is not true (if you are a half way decent PvPer anot a pre 50 in blue/greens).

 

BW is catering to a good majority of whiners out there on the forums, a good majority of them were pre 50 individuals or people are all around terrible PvPers (99% of the ones whining on the forums didn't even realize with the 6 second knock down that ops get, all they have to do is hit their get free of incap button and they wouldn't lay on the ground like some free to the world woman in a cat house.

 

I see this game as going the same route that Warhammer is going/went and I am now starting to wonder if it's really worth subbinbg to until GW 2 hits the scene.

While I do enjoy the game for it's PvE and playing with friends, I do not want them to destroy PvP and PvP balance by messing with things in 1 month without properly researching "thoroughly" their classes ingame (the devs did not give stats on the Op, so called players did.

 

Again, I am noticing a trend with bioware's games and it's up setting Next classes to be nerfed and you can bet my forum dollar on this is BH and commando with the Sith Inq coming in next (but again, it shouldn't be this way).

 

By the way, for those that think this is the only class I play, I also have a BH 50, commando 30, and SI 25,  outside my 50 OP and 49 scoundrel.

 your right they didnt get nerfed because of people dieing in 4 hits.

its 3 hits and here is the proof. guy that dies in 1 second is in full champ gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP-VnyJ0sJc&context=C3a7f8cdADOEgsToPDskIiGJ0HGD3epE1sg3jMItMr

I have to say, the youtube videos brought the OP/Smug nerfs about.  If you know your stuff, these guys become gods.

That said, I think OP/Smug does need sustained DPS to even out with the nerf.  Also, the BH and the SI do not need nerfed at all.... and no video evidence has shown that they are better than average.

Hey just for taking that backstab I want to officially offer you a Founder's club invite to this super-duper-game-broken-but-wait-being-patched-again-during-prime-time-hours-sweepstakes-with-a-cute-chick(reviewer) opportunity.  What do ya say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7was2QVTc&context=C3a7f8cdADOEgsToPDskIiGJ0HGD3epE1sg3jMItMr

That's the thing a good majority of the people I ran into had 4.5% expertise  or less, but when I ran into individuals with 10% expertise it's a whole different story (we are talking end game PvP and everyone equally geared).

I also noticed the guy's crit jumped up on his character to, was this before or after the biochem nerfs (that put scoundrels and Operatives over the top as far as killing people).

Also, again, look at this video and note the expertise of each PvP players

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoM0CV9BRPs&feature=related 

Again, I don't think they should have nerfed Operatives to the point everyone is rerolling BH and Sins now, they should have changed itemization on the gear "as the expertise goes up, Operatives damage goes down, as seen in the video.

PS.

Champ gear is crap at end game PvP

Operatives need a little tuning on the pvp side. They are pretty OP.  

Every time a class gets a nerf in these games, there's always someone who plays the class saying "We don't need to be nerfed!" when everyone else thinks you do. 

I don't think the Operative needs to be nerfed into the ground, and I'm confident that Bioware won't do that. They have always taken a very careful approach to balancing classes (in beta).  I don't know what they are doing now.

Speaking of that, do you have a link to some patch notes that shows what they are nerfing? I am not sure what it is exactly that you are talking about.  

Are there actual patch notes out there describing this or are you just panicing before it even happens? 

I would have been bitching on these forums if they nerfed any class in the game, perod.

They should have looked at itemization of PvP gear and such and did thorugh testing before hitting the big bad nerf button. Ask people to put up videos of them 3-4 hitting light armored classes in game without the biochem buffs "you won't see any of those videos put up".

The biochem stuff for PvPers "and yes the guy that 3 shotted him was using those pots, watched his crit go up before attacking".

I play other classes besides the Operative (my favorite to play and the first one I got BM gear on) but I can tell you rright now, on my BH, "it's not noticed yet but I level the hell out of groups of players by spamming missiles and I have a 35% passive armor ignore ability ( can't wait to get BM with him as  it hits even harder, when I get new gear).

While I think abilities play a role in the nerfing of these classes for PvP (which hurts PvE players more) in my opinion they should have never nerfed Operatives.

No one shows videos of other players that know how to play, putting dots on operatives, using knock back to bring them out of stealth, damage reduction or even lower leveling grinding in PvP tiers.

All I can say is this will have consequences (will se more Sith Assasins and Shadows in warzones now than the "FEW" operatives PvPers that actually knew how to play the class.

I will re bump this thread when the doom and gloom threads about Sorcs and mercs start appearing (because a well played merc will kill crowds not 1 player at a time like in your video)  mark my words.

Oh by the way, as expertise goes up, so does damage reduction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoM0CV9BRPs&feature=related 

In the test notes  it tells of the up and coming changes for Scoundrel and operative nerfs.

Smuggler

Scoundrel

• Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.
• K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.
• Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

Imperial Agent

Operative

• Acid Blade: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.
• Jarring Strike: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.
• Hidden Strike: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

Is that all smugglers do is PvP? I tried three different servers for Republic and I have to say I rarely ever encountered them. Grouped with them twice I think.

Didn't even know they had a wookie companion until right before I waved the white flag on being republic.

Smugglers and OPs are getting nerfed because pre 1.1 (Biochem buff stacking) they could kill someone before the stun from K.O. wore off (I know, I played a Smuggler.) Post 1.1, people now gets up missing about 8-10k HP (average HP is 15k.) There is absolutely nothing the other person can do if their 2 minute CC beak is on CD. I re-rolled weeks ago because the class is boring as piss to play in a PVP scenario, and I found the storyline to be very underwhelming.

It wasn't too soon to nerf a class that could essentially spend three globals and get a kill every single time they opened from stealth.  OP, I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but I've seen SF crit for 6k on people in full Champion gear. I've seen BB/SP crit for ~4k. You'll have to spend a little more time trying to get a legit kill and a little less time tunneling the shit out of one person and blowing them up almost instantly.

Here is a post 1.1 video. Stop whining about a nerf. The class needs it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3ti-dfdA&list=UU-zp15utO36E86N60p85P-A&index=1&feature=plcp

edit: I saw you say that full Champion is considered badly geared at endgame. ROFL! Yes, full T2 PVP gear is horribly geared... It takes a LONG time (especially if you have horrendous luck like I do >.<)to get BM gear. Have you even started to get BM gear yet?

OP (and this goes to any whinners about class balance in any game) do you think you're better placed to dictate class balance than Bioware who have a months worth of class performace matrices to evaluate?

Do these nerfs also effect PVE?  Cause the Operative is squishy as hell.

Also if bioware did not build in a way to keep their PvP and PvE skill separate it does not bode well for their skills as game designers.  Thats a very basic rule.

Originally posted by gotha

Do these nerfs also effect PVE?  Cause the Operative is squishy as hell.

 

Also if bioware did not build in a way to keep their PvP and PvE skill separate it does not bode well for their skills as game designers.  Thats a very basic rule.

The only nerf that is really going to mess with PVE is the ArPen nerf on Flachette Round/Acid Blade. They will lose 20% ArPen permanently. However, there's no combat log, and nobody knows how much armor endgame bosses have, so overreacting and saying the class is destroyed (like many are saying) is a bit dramatic because nobody playing has any baseline for what is considered good DPS.

Originally posted by expresso

OP (and this goes to any whinners about class balance in any game) do you think you're better placed to dictate class balance than Bioware who have a months worth of class performace matrices to evaluate?

That's just it, they haven't took months to evaluate class performance matrices, hell I was in beta for 8 damn months and no one did PvP hardly. Hardly anyone even played IA because they were too busy wanting to swing a glow bat.

And yes, I think I am better since I was testing and giving them "true" feed back un like a lot of exploiters that are currently abusing the games dynamic "oh yeah, forgot they have months of performance matrices to tell them that".

This reminds me so much of Rift back in Patch 1.1 when the Pyromancers were so OP, because they could kill players in 3 hits. Then they were nerfed to oblivion, with the subsequent months having over classes being buffed and nerfed, then the devs come full circle and buff Pyro's again in Patch 1.6. Samething will happen in SW:TOR. I'll give it 6 months before Operatives are buffed.

Regarding expertise ... i kinda don't think taking a single digit % amount of damage less is going to make that combo go from onehitting a 15k HP player to giving him a fighting chance. Lets face it, if you loose > 80% of your HP that fast your most likely going to be dead since other players will go out of their way to spam their execute abilities against you to get their kills/medals stacked up.

Also there is no way a healer will be saving you, since chances are he is already busy healing someone else since there was no way he could know that you where going to come under attack and he won't just stand around babysitting someone thats at 100%.

Also think about huttball, you get pulled into acid, stunned on fire etcpp. The chances for your CC breaker being up are pretty much nil, and even if its up and you use it your dieing 30 sec later over a fire/in acid because every class in the game has a stun/root.

Originally posted by Zookz1

Smugglers and OPs are getting nerfed because pre 1.1 (Biochem buff stacking) they could kill someone before the stun from K.O. wore off (I know, I played a Smuggler.) Post 1.1, people now gets up missing about 8-10k HP (average HP is 15k.) There is absolutely nothing the other person can do if their 2 minute CC beak is on CD. I re-rolled weeks ago because the class is boring as piss to play in a PVP scenario, and I found the storyline to be very underwhelming.

 

It wasn't too soon to nerf a class that could essentially spend three globals and get a kill every single time they opened from stealth.  OP, I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but I've seen SF crit for 6k on people in full Champion gear. I've seen BB/SP crit for ~4k. You'll have to spend a little more time trying to get a legit kill and a little less time tunneling the shit out of one person and blowing them up almost instantly.

 

Here is a post 1.1 video. Stop whining about a nerf. The class needs it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3ti-dfdA&list=UU-zp15utO36E86N60p85P-A&index=1&feature=plcp

 

edit: I saw you say that full Champion is considered badly geared at endgame. ROFL! Yes, full T2 PVP gear is horribly geared... It takes a LONG time (especially if you have horrendous luck like I do >.<)to get BM gear. Have you even started to get BM gear yet?

It is, next time you get in the game, go look at battle masters gear in comparison to Champions.

And yes, I have a full set of Battle Masters on my operative "If you read the whole post you would have seen that".

I got got the CE so I got in game pretty early took a couple of days off from work and grinded my ass off to get that set (only have it on my Op).

Again, This has nothing to do with a biochem buff either (they already fixed that) this is a straight up nerf across the boards to operatives and scoundrels.

On a note, and this is my opinion, I do not think they should have completely obliterated the burst damage of the operatives, they should have adjusted damage on abilities and stats on gear (do like they did in Warhammer, at the end). When you mess with how abilities work with PvE stuff in mind due to PvP it throws a bunch of stuff out of whack (that's what I am opposed to).

BioWare slipped up when it came to some aspects of testing. They did NOT do a lot of PvP balance testing. Had they done so, the level 50s (and preferably 40-somethings) would never have been in PvP with the 10s and 20s, which as most people know was the case for the 1st month. Bolster does add some balance but it does not add skills/gear. 50s in the mix made the PvP annoying. Now there are groups of level 50 Battlemasters just running around killing (or trying) to kill each other and the most OP wins. Beware to that newbie level 50 going in to get his 1st piece of purple gear. A good many folks that I know are re-rolling because they are finding PvP over 50 boring.

A lot of those battlemasters were farming the PvP wzs before the bracket was in place. Serious PvP testing by BioWare would have shown this and it could have been avoided. Of course, in a game where you can hit max level in less than 2 weeks by playing regularly (and not around the clock) has caused concerns as well.

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the game. Play it every day. Looking forward to testing more classes/toons but honestly, I question how this will all turn out in 6 months. Time will tell.

Originally posted by Nergle

Originally posted by Zookz1

Smugglers and OPs are getting nerfed because pre 1.1 (Biochem buff stacking) they could kill someone before the stun from K.O. wore off (I know, I played a Smuggler.) Post 1.1, people now gets up missing about 8-10k HP (average HP is 15k.) There is absolutely nothing the other person can do if their 2 minute CC beak is on CD. I re-rolled weeks ago because the class is boring as piss to play in a PVP scenario, and I found the storyline to be very underwhelming.

 

It wasn't too soon to nerf a class that could essentially spend three globals and get a kill every single time they opened from stealth.  OP, I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but I've seen SF crit for 6k on people in full Champion gear. I've seen BB/SP crit for ~4k. You'll have to spend a little more time trying to get a legit kill and a little less time tunneling the shit out of one person and blowing them up almost instantly.

 

Here is a post 1.1 video. Stop whining about a nerf. The class needs it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3ti-dfdA&list=UU-zp15utO36E86N60p85P-A&index=1&feature=plcp

 

edit: I saw you say that full Champion is considered badly geared at endgame. ROFL! Yes, full T2 PVP gear is horribly geared... It takes a LONG time (especially if you have horrendous luck like I do >.<)to get BM gear. Have you even started to get BM gear yet?

It is, next time you get in the game, go look at battle masters gear in comparison to Champions.

And yes, I have a full set of Battle Masters on my operative "If you read the whole post you would have seen that".

 

I got got the CE so I got in game pretty early took a couple of days off from work and grinded my ass off to get that set (only have it on my Op).

 

Again, This has nothing to do with a biochem buff either (they already fixed that) this is a straight up nerf across the boards to operatives and scoundrels.

 

On a note, and this is my opinion, I do not think they should have completely obliterated the burst damage of the operatives, they should have adjusted damage on abilities and stats on gear (do like they did in Warhammer, at the end). When you mess with how abilities work with PvE stuff in mind due to PvP it throws a bunch of stuff out of whack (that's what I am opposed to).

Then you are incredibly lucky to have gotten full BM in a month and a half being that the only way to get BM bags is from dailies (In other words, you can't really grind your ass off for it because you only get a SET AMOUNT OF BAGS PER WEEK.) There is no amount of grinding you could do to increase your chances at BM gear. Champ gear is the next best thing; it's not garbage gear. I know people with Valor 60+ who haven't gotten a single piece.

Your burst isn't obliterated. SF crits for 6k right now. Post-nerf  with a straight 20% damage reduction and a 20% armor pen. reduction, you will still be opening for 4k+ SF crits followed by a 3k+ BB. This doesn't even take into account F.round ticking, or the follow up Sucker Punches. I'm not sure as I haven't logged into the PTR, but I've heard that K.O. no longer fills the resolve bar, so you will have an opportunity to use Dirty Kick as a 2nd CC now.

Also, I see a lot of folks say that the class is useless outside of their opening burst. That is absolutely false. You have an 8 second AOE CC. You have sap that can get you free caps on Alderaan if there's only one person at a node. You have a vanish. You have 100% uptime from 4-30m. You have offheals. You have evasion. You have debuff removal. You have a snare/immobilize. TRY USING THESE instead of focusing on blowing someone up instantly.

On the topic of PVP nerfs negatively impacting PVE: I think it's a cop-out of an excuse right now because the game doesn't even have a damn combat log to know where ANY of the DPS classes stand. Let's be honest, the nerf to S.F isn't going to have a huge impact on PVE because it's not exactly as though you can do it more than twice in any given fight. The nerf to K.O has absolutely zero impact on endgame PVE. The ONLY substantial nerf to PVE is the 20% armor nerf, and again, we have no idea what that really means for DPS because we lack any information to have an informed opinon.

saw this type of thing coming (posted about it several times)--not from Bioware, but from the community. Why ask for a class to get nerfs or complain about them being overpowered because of their CC ability? Instead just ask that CC-breakers have a 1 second cool down...hell it can even be a pvp specific ability--in other words, ask for something you see lacking in your class...NEVER EFFING MENTION THE OTHER CLASSES!!!! Got it? good.

Btw, I'm a level 46 Jedi Knight Sentinel, and I suck at pvp...just in case anyone thought this was personal.

Originally posted by DrunkWolf

 

 your right they didnt get nerfed because of people dieing in 4 hits.

its 3 hits and here is the proof. guy that dies in 1 second is in full champ gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP-VnyJ0sJc&context=C3a7f8cdADOEgsToPDskIiGJ0HGD3epE1sg3jMItMr

That is like 10k DPS, ridicilous... who in their right mind would justify any class having 10.000 burst damage per second?