What is this End-Game you speak of? Is it the repeated running of the same lvl 50 dungeon? Killing a specific mob over and over again? Constant PvP queues? Themepark MMO's with End-Game is an oxymoron. By design, they cant exist. Its amazing to me these companies havent caught on yet. It seems the only way to make end-game plausible is to make it dynamic, otherwise you just have a high-level-grind-machine. Maybe GW2 will do it right. These devs should stop looking at these games like products and start treating them as an art form. Maybe thats just wishful thinking.

Levelling is NOT fun. All it does is separate players. That's why I rush to endgame in these games. To play with friends. When we're all levelling up we never get to experience the game together. Give me an end game only game now! I'm fed up with this pointless levelling. The game starts at endgame, the journey starts at endgame. Levelling is just a painfully prolonged tutorial these days.

I remember the days when i was playing Anarchy Online. It took me a full year to level up my fixer, and alien level 30 was just a dream, almost unreachable goal, but that did not bother me one bit. I had a lot of lowbie alts, just for fun, and i remember just sitting and chatting with my clan m8's for hours. There was almost no solo content back then, and we did everything together, but you were never ordered to stay in a raid for hours, you came and went as you pleased. Clan invited you to a raid even if your lvl was to low, and sometimes raid was doomed from the start, but we just didn't care. People are making you believe MMO's are a serious business, a second life, a second job. I don't need that. I already have a life and a job. I just come to have fun, and there is not much fun in new MMO's anymore.

Yeah, lets completely ignore the horrible amount of bugs thats makes doing anything at max level an eye gouging chore.

I quit not because I leveled too fast but because of the bugs. Every single corner, every single aspect of SW:TOR is riddled with bugs.

So, yeah, go ahead and blame TORs current downfall on leveling too fast and not on the real culprit: a game being pushed out before it was ready.

Originally posted by Yamota

I agree 100%, leveling needs to be severly slowed down. And for PvPs sake they need to remove level bonuses/penalties so that a low level character can be of some use against a higher level one.

Basically what should happen is that they need to bring back the exp curve, and death penalties, of games like Everquest and Asheron's Call and gamers need to realise that they need to find enjoyment in the journey and not the end.

I don't think the death penalty being harsh is a benefit and I know the arguments about it so don't try to re-sell those points.

The idea behind the XP-curve being harder sounds like a move in the right direction. Would it be better to force players to earn more xp via grinding the same mob over and over OR to give large XP bonuses for first time a character experiences certain things.  For example, the first time you arrive at a location, the first time you kill a mob of a specific named type, clearing a dungeon for the first time.  This gets people moving around the world AND exploration bonuses.

I also think there should be side-levels/skill for characters that you have to improve.  PVP experience should advance your pvp-only skills.  Raiding should improve your raid-only skills.  Other grouping should advance general grouping skills and perhaps base skill.  Solo play should improve basic skills.

I agree that the "content locusts" who blast through the game skipping half of the content and then whining are terrible, but I don't think slowing the leveling process way down is going to help.  If you double the level grind, it will take those people ten days instead of five and they will STILL be whining and complaining before you know it.  It will really make no difference.  The rest of us, however, that have more things to do than just sit and play games all day, every day, will really be left out.  I suspect that a large percentage of players have jobs and responsibilities and just don't have the time to make playing an MMO their second job. 

I say stop worrying about the people that race to the finish line so that they can complain about lack of content.  You would have to ruin the fun for a large majority of players to ever hope to satisfy them and then they would just find something else to complain about.  Make the best game you can, with the most content you can, and if it is good we will hang around.

I played AC since 2000, I honestly have not found a game to fill that space it has in my heart. I remember having multiple characters from level 11 to 68, it wasn't about leveling it was about enjoying the game with people. Knowing I could be 10 levels under my friend but still do quests with them and do well (with level 6 buffs Lugian Cit FTW).

If AC ever did a reboot and kept its skill system, levelin system, armor system and brought back the original magic discovery system I would play it until it died off again.

I despise the end-game. 

You play through scores of levels and are provided with content and fun...  Then you approach the max level of the game and things change....

Content slows (we are talking a good 8 levels before max level even)

World drops become worthless (often this happens about 15 levels before max level -- At level 40 you can get a solo lucky drop that is very close to the best currently available -- at level 70 you can't get a drop better than a trash drop on a raid.)

You acquire all the skills your character will have (again this often happens before max level)

You have been everywhere geographically (I have usually explored the entire world significantly before max level)

Quests dry up

Playstyles narrow (Lets say you soloed monsters 6 levels above your level in a slow manner...  You were set up to be able to do it in whatever game... Well when the highest level monster is equal to your level then you are stuck killing those.  Sometimes there are no solo monsters in games even 2 levels BELOW the level of the characters...  This hurts the solo tank or solo healer more than it does a solo dps who is built to be able to carve through legions of lower monsters)

---------------

Even if there is a level cap, I think they should always have a few areas where monsters are well above the level of the characters -- even DEADLY so...  If the level cap is say 60 -- there should be zones where the monsters are upwards of level 70 in all flavors.  They shouldnt stop at level 58 for a level 60 cap.

-----

At any rate I typically find that I get to the endgame and it ends up the end of the game for me. 

This process is happening right now in vindictus...  Fun game but at the end it ends up a big farming session.  Pretty much all the themeparks end up as a big farming session at the endgame. 

About the only themepark I was able to stick with for raids in a fairly big way was the original everquest -- at least they set the game up so the MAJORITY of the content was at max level. AAs to gain and lots of zones to progress through...  In fact that was a constant complaint by some that so much of the content was only seeable by a small few who were able to get that far.  At least EQ had some avenues of advancement at max level and more than a smattering of dungeons to run over and over and over and over.

Warhammer was the only one I really stayed for PVP(RVR) for a longish period.  Only thing that really booted me from that game was a "bad" server merge where I ended up being vastly outnumbered all the time for no fun.

Oh well -- The most recent casualty looks to be Vindictus...  I had a fun romp up to level 69.4 but essentially I have been everywhere and the quests are done and I dont want to spend large amounts of time and money getting mega endgame equipment (already have 12k/7k -- getting the extra k to be able to go on boats to run the same zones over and over isnt really my cup of tea).

I am convinced the people shouting and stomping their feet about having nothing to do once they had hit level 50 in lotro during the shadow of angmar days heavily influenced the way that the legendary item and radiance systems were implemented with the mines of moria expansion.

It seemed to me that the devs added grind and gates to try and remedy the whines of folks that were expecting a fledgling mmo to have the same level of end game content as games that had existed for years.  That decision was a mistake and it was mostly downhill from there in my opinion.

Ignore these gamers, they are like a thirst that can never be quenched and definitely don't compromise gameplay to try and eek out a few more months worth of sub from them as it is the casual bread and butter sub players that get punished for it.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Same goes for a quicker death in games and MMOs in general. You have to learn from your mistakes.

Getting carried through a whole game, like in SWToR in which is literally nothing difficult, is no fun. No fun at all.

There is a huge number of people who want to level an extremely long time to get into endgame, but that costs more development time for a game. Which costs again more money to develop. Conclusion? Developers throw out their games, their content rapidly, to soath the "easy or casual gamers" needs.

Its nothing special that tons of threads pop up in forums like this one, where people including those casual gamers argue about what they get fed in MMOs these days. It's nothing bad or negative guys, it's just a part in your waking-up - when you finally realize how developers actually fool you.

Be more critical and you will get your indepth content and harder difficulties and takes-more-time-to-achieve-something in games.

Just step away from this "quick buying" mentality.

 

I find this attitude rather annoying. Why do some people think they have become enlightened in some way? We're talking about computer games and past times, not religion or government conspiracy. 

Actually, in SW:TOR if the leveling system were a bit slower it would work well, at least at the later levels as it slows significantly in the middle section than appears to just pick right back up in the 40s.

Great game, lot's of content, unfortunate bugs at the end-game. Over all best MMO to come out since WoW, and the leveling experience in SW:TOR trumps the one in WoW. Dialogue/voice overs, etc = long over-due in this genre.

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Same goes for a quicker death in games and MMOs in general. You have to learn from your mistakes.

Getting carried through a whole game, like in SWToR in which is literally nothing difficult, is no fun. No fun at all.

There is a huge number of people who want to level an extremely long time to get into endgame, but that costs more development time for a game. Which costs again more money to develop. Conclusion? Developers throw out their games, their content rapidly, to soath the "easy or casual gamers" needs.

Its nothing special that tons of threads pop up in forums like this one, where people including those casual gamers argue about what they get fed in MMOs these days. It's nothing bad or negative guys, it's just a part in your waking-up - when you finally realize how developers actually fool you.

Be more critical and you will get your indepth content and harder difficulties and takes-more-time-to-achieve-something in games.

Just step away from this "quick buying" mentality.

 

I find this attitude rather annoying. Why do some people think they have become enlightened in some way? We're talking about computer games and past times, not religion or government conspiracy. 

Are the developers of a game that you so enjoy not allowed to be as greedy as the government that lies to you? Honest question.

3 words people.

Player Driven World.

You know Isabel many player will disagree with you.

Unfortunately the developers tend to listen to those kind of players, that's why we don't have a good MMORPG since WoW came out.

Developers though should read carefully your post because that' s the secret of the longevity all the latest  MMOs cannot achieve.

To be completely honesst I find ridicolous that developers expect players to stick around for a long period of time when they can max a character in a month or less.

To me that's commercial suicide, you want people to stay subscribed for a year when you allow them to burn all the content in a month.

They have to be quite optimistic or really stupid................

Originally posted by Stathis1

3 words people.

Player Driven World.

 

Four words:  Design one that works.

Most of the examples we have are terribad.

Originally posted by moosecatlol

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Same goes for a quicker death in games and MMOs in general. You have to learn from your mistakes.

Getting carried through a whole game, like in SWToR in which is literally nothing difficult, is no fun. No fun at all.

There is a huge number of people who want to level an extremely long time to get into endgame, but that costs more development time for a game. Which costs again more money to develop. Conclusion? Developers throw out their games, their content rapidly, to soath the "easy or casual gamers" needs.

Its nothing special that tons of threads pop up in forums like this one, where people including those casual gamers argue about what they get fed in MMOs these days. It's nothing bad or negative guys, it's just a part in your waking-up - when you finally realize how developers actually fool you.

Be more critical and you will get your indepth content and harder difficulties and takes-more-time-to-achieve-something in games.

Just step away from this "quick buying" mentality.

 

I find this attitude rather annoying. Why do some people think they have become enlightened in some way? We're talking about computer games and past times, not religion or government conspiracy. 

Are the developers of a game that you so enjoy not allowed to be as greedy as the government that lies to you? Honest question.

They can be as greedy as they like. I am perfectly capable of self will, I choose to buy and play an MMO. If I dont like it big fricken deal. Some of you guys talk as if people are getting brainwashed into handing over their houses and pension plans. get real, get a perspective on life. If paying £50 for a game, getting 30-40 hours game play out of it and moving on is such an ordeal ----- don't play.

"Ohhh I've seen the light! Don't buy these games, the companies are evil wrong doers who only want your money!" No shit, like every other retail related business on the planet.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Stathis1

3 words people.

Player Driven World.

Four words:  Design one that works.

Most of the examples we have are terribad.

^This

I'd take it a step further though -

Player Driven World that isn't about Grinding.

Know what I hate about EvE and hated about SWG and EQ?

Grinding... tiers of gear based on grinding... they call(ed) themselves sandboxes while putting in the grind of a themepark game.

True sandbox = no grind.

No end game, no beginning game, no grind, just... game....

I think developer created content is fine and is neccessary, but not as the sole form of content in a game. I'd be really happy with a game that had you do awesome, phased/instanced, personal, voiced-over quests with awesome story and a highly cinematic flair... every like 5-10 levels.

And leave the time/space in between up to you and your imagination/play style.

Earth and Beyond actually did this, I thought it was a wonderful idea.

I remember clearly my ultimate goal during my EQ days.. It had nothing to do with max level.. I just wanted my epic weapon...

The multi-part, multi- mechanic, sometimes time based and crafting required quest line that ended with the slaying of an epic boss sometimes more than one...

These epic quest lines really put you through some stuff and took some time to complete and completing them meant alot to you as a player..

I like the term content locusts so +1 for that.

As a gamer who plays MMO's my perception is more like...

There used to be games I could log into every day and play.   I enjoyed playing those games for years...   My level didn't matter.   Well ok in UO it really didn't matter.. but my point is.. no matter what my level was in the level based games I had fun.   DAoC is an example of a level based game I enjoyed at all levels.   EQ I had a couple of partners for duo's depending on who was online and never worried about gaining X levels or reaching end game (eq wasn't even one of my favorite games but I had good friends in it).

Commonly now I don't have as much draw to play MMO's... regardless of level.   So oddly enough for me "end game" is not the factor at play here.

So that's how I look at and I could write a wall of text in regards to getting me to log in every day.. but I'll skip that part and just write half a wall instead.

In regards to the specific context of "end game"...

We are no longer at a point where developers should be able to be suprised at the fact people will reach "end game" quickly.   We also see games specificly designed so that masses might reach end game rather quickly...   These aren't the days of finding a group and doing a camp check.. so you could sit around your grind spot for hours and discuss various things during down time.   Or waiting in line to get in a camp group.

As to the "in between" content... whether an idividual thinks someone else isn't fully experiencing it or not.. is a transitional part of the game which is not meant to last an exceedingly long time.   As opposed to "end game" which obviously you reach at some point and the developer supposedly wants to keep your subscribing for a long time...

So it should be obvious from developers right on down the line to customers.. that with the current realities of gaming.. end game should have a major design emphasis and games should launch with significant "end game" systems in place.

Quite frankly and this is just my opinion (obviously) they either need to change the way MMO's are developed or they need to change the current development process.    I know that sounds like the same thing... but I'm talking about either using different core mechanics... or changing the emphasis to the part of the game that is supposed to hold your customer for the long term.

/shrug

If the content locusts are such a small percentage... then why would developers listen to them regardless?   In that reality no blame should be put on the "content locusts" it should be entirely on the developers.   Losing some small segment of your player base to retain the overwhelming majority only makes sense... in every single way especially financially.

So unless this small percentage is actually the majority... why was anything ever changed?   No matter how you look at it.. it still comes back to the developers doing the wrong thing at some point.

thats why i wait to get the game and what you just said abbout being top lvl in no time and all is left to do is PVP and some dairly...will just make me not geting the game