Originally posted by Kuro1n

I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.

No need. A Korean court did that, found them guilty and sentenced them to prison.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Gorilla

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Sector13

Originally posted by Vhaln

 

Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.

Ok, I'll take back the opinion about it being ridiculous, but why so riled up about it?  You seem awfully aggressive about your stance, there...

Because they are criminals? It would seem that this was planned and executed whilst they work working at NCsoft.

 

Are you sure?  Just because that's how NCSoft chose to spin the situation?  I haven't seen anything resembling evidence of that, or even specifics as to what they stole.  Just a document that comes off more like vindictive hyperbole than anything else.

Actually, if you read the complain they filed, it stated that the Korean police the a list of file that they were taken from NCSoft offices using portable storage devices. They even have a BHS internal memo instructing how to deal with those assets. They have ex-NCSoft developers now work for BHS admitted to the police that they stole stuffs from NCSoft.

And BHS lost the criminal court twice already. BHS founder is in jail. Heh, what more do you need?

There's no doubt that BHS stole a lot from Lineage 3 project. But that will be resolved in criminal case.

What interested me is how can NCSoft prove to the US court that TERA is using Lineage 3 project assets. It's not easy to do so. That's why the fight is still going on in Korea. We will see how it goes in the US though.

Originally posted by Kuro1n

I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.

No, and I dont' believe anyone is creating line by line reasons why any particular articles have been broken.

But people who have worked for companies that do require non-compete agreements or require you to fill out forms with all of your former patents/publicatons are just giving their experiences with this type of stuff. Naturally, this stuff is different from country to county.

So, by all means, if you have actual experience with similar agreements then feel free to add to the conversation.

Im not looking forward to TERA or GW2 but it sounds like NCSoft is striking at them because they fear tera will cobble upplayers before GW2 will. Its a low blow IMO.

Originally posted by Sector13 

EME is made up of former NCsoft/NCwest employees. They knew what they were doing.

Goddamn it, NCwest is the most useless company i ever had to deal with. The way they handle stuff managed to piss me off when i playd l2 and when i playd Aion.

I remeber when i playd aion and if you asked about something specific you got the answear soon, that was all those useless twats managed to give out, every post had the word soon or in the future. wtf i could already guess soon or in the future myself.

I suddenly lost the will to play Tera but i think the combat will lure me in if only for a brief time

Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

Originally posted by Ganathar

Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

Seems someone actually is updated. )

Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Oh I know full well about craftsmanship and creating. I'm a composer.

Now the thing is, if I create something for someone I make sure that it's something that I'm "ok" with giving away.

If someone asks me to write them a piece I'm not going to write them something that I will later use in something else.

What these creators are asked to do is to brainstorm and use their experience to create assets for their employer. That's their job.

Anything they create they need to be comfortable parting with it. If for some reason they come up with amazing ideas that they don't want NC to have they need to leave the company and depending on their non-compete agreement, proceed in a way that is lawful.

The point is, if you want to be a professional you have to act like a professional. Because one can act however one wants but after a while that will come back to bite you in the butt.

If one doesn't like the terms of a contract then don't sign it. It's as simple as that.

 

What if you were under a company making music, and you had signed a contract with them, and you just made some of your greastest work of life, but the company wanted to take your music in another dirrection, would you be fine with that? Even when you had strong connection to that project.

We don't know what actually were written in their contract when they were under NCsoft, but I would be surprised that a contract would be very one-sided and not take the creative work of their people under consideration.

Originally posted by nyxium

Only a duel to the death by pistols at dawn can truly resolve this situation. It is demanded.

 

Ncsoft would lose because the casting animation would take 5 secs and they would be rooted while casting. TERA wins.

Originally posted by Kuro1n

Originally posted by Ganathar

Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

Seems someone actually is updated. )

Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

Actually, some of us have read the lawsuit, so I don't know where either of you are getting your information, the documents spell everything out very clearly. Below is where they say not only concepts were stolen, but software, hardware, and proprietary data. It's also pointed out that, when confronted by authorities, BH admitted to the theft and tried to hide it and cover their tracks by wiping the computers, a crime on its own but it also shows they knew full well what they were doing.

What actually happened with the first case:

What BH admitted to:

As to what NCSoft is able to prove, that's not something any of us would know for sure unless we were part of the case. However, considering several were convicted - even if all of them didn't end up in jail - I'd say they're able to prove plenty.

EDIT: Links fixed, my bad.

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by Kuro1n

Originally posted by Ganathar

Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

Seems someone actually is updated. )

Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

Actually, some of us have read the lawsuit, so I don't know where either of you are getting your information, the documents spell everything out very clearly. Below is where they say not only concepts were stolen, but software, hardware, and proprietary data. It's also pointed out that, when confronted by authorities, BH admitted to the theft and tried to hide it and cover their tracks by wiping the computers, a crime on its own but it also shows they knew full well what they were doing.

What actually happened with the first case:

What BH admitted to:

 

As to what NCSoft is able to prove, that's not something any of us would know for sure unless we were part of the case. However, considering several were convicted - even if all of them didn't end up in jail - I'd say they're able to prove plenty.

Read my post again, I actually said that they stole Lineage 3 data :P

Originally posted by Letyson

Originally posted by Sovrath

Oh I know full well about craftsmanship and creating. I'm a composer.

Now the thing is, if I create something for someone I make sure that it's something that I'm "ok" with giving away.

If someone asks me to write them a piece I'm not going to write them something that I will later use in something else.

What these creators are asked to do is to brainstorm and use their experience to create assets for their employer. That's their job.

Anything they create they need to be comfortable parting with it. If for some reason they come up with amazing ideas that they don't want NC to have they need to leave the company and depending on their non-compete agreement, proceed in a way that is lawful.

The point is, if you want to be a professional you have to act like a professional. Because one can act however one wants but after a while that will come back to bite you in the butt.

If one doesn't like the terms of a contract then don't sign it. It's as simple as that.

 

What if you were under a company making music, and you had signed a contract with them, and you just made some of your greastest work of life, but the company wanted to take your music in another dirrection, would you be fine with that? Even when you had strong connection to that project.

We don't know what actually were written in their contract when they were under NCsoft, but I would be surprised that a contract would be very one-sided and not take the creative work of their people under consideration.

It doesn't matter. When you sign a contract and work for someone (by the way, the contracts signed upon both entering work with NCSoft and leaving are detailed in the court documents) you are creating work FOR THEM. I'm a commission artist and regularly develop both 2d art and 3d assets for people and have run across the situation you just mentioned, many times. But it doesn't matter. I didn't create it for me, it was a paid service, therefore it's not mine, it belongs to the person who paid me to create it. I don't get to turn around and say "Oh, but it came out so pretty!" and do whatever I like with it afterward. That's not the way real life works.

Originally posted by Kuro1n

Originally posted by Ganathar

Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

Seems someone actually is updated. )

Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

   It is no where near as clear cut as this.  We'll have to see what the Supreme Court has to say.  That will be the final determinant.

Originally posted by Letyson

 

 

What if you were under a company making music, and you had signed a contract with them, and you just made some of your greastest work of life, but the company wanted to take your music in another dirrection, would you be fine with that? Even when you had strong connection to that project.

We don't know what actually were written in their contract when they were under NCsoft, but I would be surprised that a contract would be very one-sided and not take the creative work of their people under consideration.

Letyson, that's how it works. That's what being a professional in a creative field is about.

Here's one, you are an artist and graphic designer and you are hired to create assets for a company and you do the best work of your life. It still belongs to the company. If they look at your work and say "you know, I lik it but it needs more cowbell" then you do it.

that's really how it works.

edit: the trick is to weigh what you want to create for your employer and what you want to keep for yourself.

It is called Plagerism guys and it is very serious. If you do it in school you get expelled. If you do it at work you get fired and if a company does it they get hit with lawsuits. There is no doubt about the guilt here. TERA is Lingeage 3 the Stolen Project. BHS got caught red handed.

Originally posted by Eliandal

Originally posted by Kuro1n

Originally posted by Ganathar

Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

Seems someone actually is updated. )

Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

 

   It is no where near as clear cut as this.  We'll have to see what the Supreme Court has to say.  That will be the final determinant.

Well... maybe NCsoft can prove it, if they find compelling evidence that is.

Originally posted by Novusod

It is called Plagerism guys and it is very serious. If you do it in school you get expelled. If you do it at work you get fired and if a company does it they get hit with lawsuits. There is no doubt about the guilt here. TERA is Lingeage 3 the Stolen Project. BHS got caught red handed.

Did the guy at BHS take the soruce code = yes

Was it returned = yes

Does the Dev have the right to continue work in his field = yes

Was Tera Developed after the codes were returned = yes

Does NCsoft have to prove that the orginial code was being used in Tera = yes

Has NCsoft proven that tera uses the code = no

Plagerism has to be proven, something NCsoft has not done during the 5 years of tera's development.  They did not try to stop the game from being launched in Korea, Japan, or all the EU contries.  You got to question why only NA.

Originally posted by stayontarget

Originally posted by Novusod

It is called Plagerism guys and it is very serious. If you do it in school you get expelled. If you do it at work you get fired and if a company does it they get hit with lawsuits. There is no doubt about the guilt here. TERA is Lingeage 3 the Stolen Project. BHS got caught red handed.

Did the guy at BHS take the soruce code = yes

Was it returned = yes

Does the Dev have the right to continue work in his field = yes

Was Tera Developed after the codes were returned = yes

Does NCsoft have to prove that the orginial code was being used in Tera = yes

Has NCsoft proven that tera uses the code = no

Plagerism has to be proven, something NCsoft has not done during the 5 years of tera's development.  They did not try to stop the game from being launched in Korea, Japan, or all the EU contries.  You got to question why only NA.

 

IF I recall correctly they did sue TERA in Korea.

Judging by the majority of the responses in this and other threads, NcSoft has done an amazing job of spinning the situation.  They seem to have convinced people that Tera contains material from Lineage 3 and that a Korean court backed them up, but that simply isn't true.

There were two allegations against K-Tera

1- Tera contained material that belonged to NcSoft.  Case didn't go anywhere, and since then NcSoft hasn't made another move to shut down K-Tera.

2- Material belonging to NcSoft was taken and in the possession of EM/BH.  Case was successful, 5 people were given jail time, and a fine was levied against the company along with orders to destroy the material and not use it.  Damages were overturned on appeal, case is still pending.

So contrary to what popularly seems to be believed, it has never been demonstrated that Tera actually contains any material belonging to NcSoft.  In fact given their close call with an injunction, and pending damages just for having the material in their possession, they would have to be INSANE to actually use the material in Tera.

Seeing as I work in a field were you have to sign non-competition agreements or not get hired, I will say this. They are frivalous and usually end up getting thrown out of court in the US. In other countries they don't, but in the US many have tried to use them against employess and failed. NCSoft hopefully isnt going to go into this battle with just that against them or they will lose. BTW, in the US non-competition agreements go against ammendment rights that is why they get thrown out. Read through one and you will see.