Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by precious328

Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.

You mind if the real players get a game, too?

Seems to me you're getting games about as frequently as the market demands.

No. I'm playing Open Betas as the market demands.

I've said it for years, the community is the main thing that makes or breaks a game.  In older MMOs, the community was very tight-knit.  Today, everyone is in it for themselves, and couldn't care less for other players.  In older MMOs, there were actually petitions (and sometimes didn't even need one) for Devs to even put in statues and memorials for players that passed away.  In one of my old old timey MMOs the Devs even put in an entire town named after a player since he was the leader of one of the major guilds in the game.  Now you'll never see anything of the like.  Community on just about every game I've played (except Rift, FFXI, DAoC) should get a community score of 1-3 out of 10.

Originally posted by bossalinie

Originally posted by precious328

Originally posted by bossalinie

Originally posted by precious328

Originally posted by Axehilt

ToR fast travel complaints are completely warranted.  WOW barely wasted players' time at all with non-gameplay (travel), so when ToR comes along and takes a step backwards, players are quick to point out how that makes things less fun.

Centralized social hubs like ToR's stations obviously work, and I'm not sure things would be better by diffusing this population over several major social hubs.

That said, the requirement to sit near the social hub to find a flashpoint group is completely ridiculous, because I'd much rather be out playing the game while finding a group than being forced to sit in non-gameplay (at a station.)

As for world PVP and what players "don't want"?  Players don't want their PVP to not be about PVP (which is exactly what happens in World PVP, where more than half the game is spent building up and traveling around, and the actual time spent PVPing is a fraction of the overall time spent playing.)  It's no big surprise that PVPers want PVP, and that World PVP provides very little (and bad) PVP.

Nobody ever wanted to play an arbitrary definition of what MMORPGs "should be".  Most players just want a fun game first, and if it's also a virtual world then great (but if not: no big loss.)

Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.

You mind if the real players get a game, too?

 Game developers obviously don't think you're real enough...

Yes, because every Theme Park game post-WoW has been a raging success story, eh?

 How's Xyson, Perpectuum, Darkfall, and Mortal Online doing for you? Is Eve still carrying the sandbox torch? SWG managing ok?

Sweet. Another person who thinks that in order for a game to have a good social environment, it has to be a hardcore sandbox.

Regardless, the money it took to make most of those sandbox games probably doesn't equal the ultimate failure of just one of your over-hyped and over-paid Theme Parks.

Originally posted by Gravarg

I've said it for years, the community is the main thing that makes or breaks a game.  In older MMOs, the community was very tight-knit.  Today, everyone is in it for themselves, and couldn't care less for other players. 

I'm just going to quote you and agree, because sometimes I feel like I'm just repeating myself. Being able to solo everything and having no penalties or responsibilities makes people completely detached from the community, and it really hurts the community.

Originally posted by tixylix

They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas.  They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3.

I agree with this to a certain extent.  I want to log in and have fun for a while.  If playing requires me to wait in a hub to make a group or spend ten minutes traveling to an instance, then they are likely going to lose me.

They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.

I like exploring areas once.  After that, what's the point.

For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this. 

If I'm not killing you or grouping with you, what do I care about how many people are in my area?

Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game. 

Maybe the kind of game you like isn't profitable.  Maybe you are in the minority.

We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.  

Allowing people to port to instances can let people be in those cities rather than in the fleet reading the general chat channel.  Frankly, I want to spend my time efficiently doing stuff.  Why do I want to hang out in a hub.

 

What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.

 Until they fix faction imbalances, world PVP will always be broken. 

Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004. 

 SWG was never going to be the success Lucas Arts wanted.

 

SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.

Most people don't want to play sandbox MMOs.

 

---

Originally posted by WhiteLantern
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
 
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.

---

Not aimed at you, WhiteLantern :)
MMOs used to be about time. It took time (good or bad) for everything. It was an "investment" in one's time. A player did not log on for 15 minutes and expect to accomplish much. Players in groups hardly went afk. At least in the groups I was in they did not. There was plenty of down-time to do things like bio breaks and such. Now, "down time" is an evil game mechanic. People signed online and knew they were going to spend some time and "dedicated" themselves to the game.

I know many of you are thinking, "Whatever floats your boat!", but think about it. Name one game where you have a vested interest in your character. What hardships has that character overcome? Did you go to some website to find out how to overcome that obstacle, or did you figure it out yourself? Do the history books write about the Donner Party or the 10th plane that flew from New York to Los Angelos? Do you remember the Super Bowl that had a close score and a good game, or the blowout with mismatched teams?

MMOs used to be about overcoming hardships and investing time in a world that the player actually wanted to spend their time in. It was a bunch of basement trolls playing in a virtual world where the real world was usually not so kind, thus the stigma associated with MMOs. It was an escape. C'mon, now, NOT every player was like this, but the core of old time players were.

Players now-a-days have goals and look for successes with their time played. Players today do not "just go fishing" in a virtual world. They will if there is a daily goal involved, though. Players today do not "just see what's over that hill" unless there is an exploration badge or some other reward involved. I found a guildmate in EQ who was as interested in learning the different languages in the game as I was. We would spend HOURS just sitting and talking to each other in different languages as we taught each other.

I liken this attitude to life today, as opposed to yesteryear. People seem to be always "on the go", hurrying to get to their next destination/appointment/activity. I thnk this bleeds over into their gaming time, too. I don't think many people play just to relax anymore. It's like dating... No one wants to invest the time to get to know each other anymore.

/shrug

What I've found is that players dont want to pay $15/month for a heavily isntanced single-player or cooperative-online rpg, which is why we've experienced mass exodus from these STO & SW:TOR types of games within the forst 3 months.

Originally posted by bossalinie
There is nonsense on both sides. People don't like to come on the forums seeing post like 'If you like Wow or Star Wars, you are not a real MMO fan.' It's insulting and as far from the truth as possible. We have different taste, but we are still fans of the genre.

You are missing the point. What someone like or dislike does not matter, but you can't just label any game you love mmo and then its an mmo. I like diablo but I am not calling it an mmo. You could see it as insulting but if you turn it around, it is like someone moved to a new town and began telling the locals what the town is like, so it kindda goes both ways.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.

I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.

 

I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.

In another words you dont want an MMORPG the way they used to be and thats fine. I dont need a sandbox. What the OP said has nothing to do with sandboxes either. Everquest was not a sandbox. Asherons Call was not a complete sandbox. It was a mix of themepark and sandbox.

Also, befor you tell someone to grow up maybe you should comprehend what they are saying. The OP is spot on saying games these days arent really MMORPG's. Pretty much everything since WoW has been instanced based with social hubs. WoW was that way but it was large enough to feel at least somewhat open world.

Granted, Meridian 59 was my first true MMO, it wasn't until EQ that I realized just how amazing online games could be. Being a fan of AD&D since I was 8, roleplaying was a huge part of my gaming hobby. When EQ launched, it was buggy and complicated and new. NPC's didn't have exclamation points above their head or dot trails leading you to your quest objective. EQ was designed in a way that forced players to explore the world, not that I would really classify it as forced, since most enjoyed traveling the world by foot. Sure, Druids and Wizards could teleport but it wasn't as easy to come by as most MMO's today.

The OP brings up a good point. Today's MMO generation are lazy, thats right, lazy in their gaming when in fact, all they are doing is pressing keys and moving a mouse. So what if it takes an hour to get from one zone to another. If you can't enjoy that simple aspect called exploration, why are you playing MMO's? MMO's were designed to pass time and with that in mind, we lost our direction.

Remember the language barrier in EQ? Not everyone could communicate with one another. Remember needing food and water in your bag? Remember STR stat actually affecting how much one could carry aka encumberance? It's like today's gamers have zero and I mean zero sense of RP.

I don't care if gaming companies want to cater to that particular crowd, but please, don't claim to be making an MMORPG and have it end up like GW, Global Agenda or APB.

Let's bring back the RP to MMOG and get back to the roots that started this epic genre. Let's bring back SWG, EQ and DAoC utilizing today's technology and graphics. Heck, even Anarchy Online in it's god awful launch is a much better game then some of the crap coming out claiming to be MMO's.

OP, I totally agree with you on this, unfortunately.

Originally posted by AlBQuirk

---

 

Not aimed at you, WhiteLantern :)
MMOs used to be about time. It took time (good or bad) for everything. It was an "investment" in one's time. A player did not log on for 15 minutes and expect to accomplish much. Players in groups hardly went afk. At least in the groups I was in they did not. There was plenty of down-time to do things like bio breaks and such. Now, "down time" is an evil game mechanic. People signed online and knew they were going to spend some time and "dedicated" themselves to the game.

I know many of you are thinking, "Whatever floats your boat!", but think about it. Name one game where you have a vested interest in your character. What hardships has that character overcome? Did you go to some website to find out how to overcome that obstacle, or did you figure it out yourself? Do the history books write about the Donner Party or the 10th plane that flew from New York to Los Angelos? Do you remember the Super Bowl that had a close score and a good game, or the blowout with mismatched teams?

MMOs used to be about overcoming hardships and investing time in a world that the player actually wanted to spend their time in. It was a bunch of basement trolls playing in a virtual world where the real world was usually not so kind, thus the stigma associated with MMOs. It was an escape. C'mon, now, NOT every player was like this, but the core of old time players were.

Players now-a-days have goals and look for successes with their time played. Players today do not "just go fishing" in a virtual world. They will if there is a daily goal involved, though. Players today do not "just see what's over that hill" unless there is an exploration badge or some other reward involved. I found a guildmate in EQ who was as interested in learning the different languages in the game as I was. We would spend HOURS just sitting and talking to each other in different languages as we taught each other.

I liken this attitude to life today, as opposed to yesteryear. People seem to be always "on the go", hurrying to get to their next destination/appointment/activity. I thnk this bleeds over into their gaming time, too. I don't think many people play just to relax anymore. It's like dating... No one wants to invest the time to get to know each other anymore.

/shrug

You know what i think the difference is between people that call themselves "old timers" and what they call the new crowd of casual gamers?

Old timers were looking for friends.

Casual people are looking for fun.

2 total different mind sets. Yes, they can combine a bit. But just think of that.

One set is more interested in making long term commitments by looking for friends that game.

And the other is looking for a fun game to play. And  will drop the  game as soon as the fun stops, with no, or small  amount of thought given, to the people that they may have met while playing.

Both gamers, but the mind sets will always set them apart from each other. And the casual is where the investors and dev's are spending the cash.

And i really do not see it ever going back to the old way. And yes on topic:) because the 2 groups see what defines a MMO  as completely different as their reasons to game. And neither can really see that they are both right, and wrong.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Granted, Meridian 59 was my first true MMO, it wasn't until EQ that I realized just how amazing online games could be. Being a fan of AD&D since I was 8, roleplaying was a huge part of my gaming hobby. When EQ launched, it was buggy and complicated and new. NPC's didn't have exclamation points above their head or dot trails leading you to your quest objective. EQ was designed in a way that forced players to explore the world, not that I would really classify it as forced, since most enjoyed traveling the world by foot. Sure, Druids and Wizards could teleport but it wasn't as easy to come by as most MMO's today.

The OP brings up a good point. Today's MMO generation are lazy, thats right, lazy in their gaming when in fact, all they are doing is pressing keys and moving a mouse. So what if it takes an hour to get from one zone to another. If you can't enjoy that simple aspect called exploration, why are you playing MMO's? MMO's were designed to pass time and with that in mind, we lost our direction.

Remember the language barrier in EQ? Not everyone could communicate with one another. Remember needing food and water in your bag? Remember STR stat actually affecting how much one could carry aka encumberance? It's like today's gamers have zero and I mean zero sense of RP.

I don't care if gaming companies want to cater to that particular crowd, but please, don't claim to be making an MMORPG and have it end up like GW, Global Agenda or APB.

Let's bring back the RP to MMOG and get back to the roots that started this epic genre. Let's bring back SWG, EQ and DAoC utilizing today's technology and graphics. Heck, even Anarchy Online in it's god awful launch is a much better game then some of the crap coming out claiming to be MMO's.

OP, I totally agree with you on this, unfortunately.

I think there really is room for both types of MMOs. Heck, I could see myself playing a casual game some days and something deeper with plenty of exploration other days.

The real problem with exploration is that in some games there really isn´t much to explore, moving through a gigantic forrest with just trees and some monsters placed in a certain order isn´t that fun, you need to find stuff to actually explore something. Just small stuff like a rare harvestable flower, a small ruin  that looks weird or maybe a rare animal.

I started with Meridian 59 as well. I saw the potential directly but since I still had a dial up at the time I didn´t get so much out of it and didn´t really get stuk in MMOs until a few years later when I got my broadband.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Maybe the problem with the direction of the genre has nothing at all to do with player wants and or feedback and everything to do with developers trying to push the genre toward the Console market?

I'm a casual player and I don't want a corpg or lobby based game, but neither do I want to return to the old days of camping spots and loot drop grinds, hell levels and time requirments that would tax even a retiree.  I want persistant, breathing worlds that are immersive and fun to play, but not if they're going to suck the life out of you, turning you into a basement dweller.

This +1 every store you go in regular retail or specialty gaming the PC selection is shrinking or non existant. A number of MMOs have already worked to cross platform and with the release of next gen consoles rapidly approaching, we're likely to see more and more games become cross platform or console exclusive. Face it console games are easier to develop because the only need to work on one hardware standard. The market majority are casual console gamers who won't spend hundreds to upgrade a PC just to waste hours on one single game. These gamers would rather spend an hour or two playing BF3 or MF3 with family members and friends three States away than 8 hours on a PC sandbox with people they really don't know. Until that changes (and it's not ever likey) the trend will move more to the casual with every passing year.

Originally posted by tixylix

They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3. They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.

For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this. 

Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game. 

It's happening and happened to SWTOR already...

People are already asking for fast travel every, the ability to just warp to any planet from your location. They're already asking for faster vehicles because they hate the travel times which in SWTOR are so small as it is. In beta they added the fleets which basically took everyone out of the worlds and put them in a social hub where they just stay there. Most people now just sit there get groups for flashpoints and battlegrounds and level up on that stuff like what happened to WoW. The worlds have no one in them because these people playing do not want to play an MMO, they just want to play Guild Wars. 

We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.  

What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.

 

Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004. 

 

 

SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.

  I think the main issue is people want to play mmo's I am sure alot of them want to do all you said the problem is as the mmo genre has grown more and more ppl are in these games now which also means more and more kiddies and immature adults who berate anything someone does wrong or any mistake from missing crap on the floor in WoW to not doing "enough dps" combine that with no real consquence for that kinda behavior,Yes we has toolbags back in the early mmog days also the difference was you didn't have cross realms and random dungeon finder etc etc and if you burned bridges on your server you were done for so it helped keep players in line as they knew once they got blackballed it was either reroll or never do any end game content.

    People have became so critical of others it has made them withdraw and just play solo or with 1-2 friends they feel like they cannot experience the game due  to the idiots telling them they are playing there character wrong and berating them non stop.I mean you run a instance in WoW and even if the group is doing well you will have one smarta** in group mouthing off with either worse dps ever,worse tank ever and on and on and on people will only listen to that so much til they just stop wanting to join in on anything due to it.

It is so hard not to step on anyones toes, but here is what I think is the difference between the classic mmorpg players and a gamer.

The classic mmorpg gamer is likely to have played eq, uo, doac or similar. This person was usually turned onto the genre by reading lord of the rings and other fantasi and sci fi books. This person finds the invention of new worlds with new rules extremely fascinating and has a high amount of imagination. This person needs and wants moments of escapism, and for this is using his imagination combined with whatever source he can find, that beeing books, games, movies etc.

In games for this player a kind of roleplaying is important for this to happen, and to be in the "zone of imagination" you cant have too much that constantly sends you out of your escapist moment (very individual how much this is). They need a world that somehow makes sense, and various people may accept more or less of stuff that makes their bullindicator go off. The main thing is they can stay in their escapist moment of imagination.

This is a rough and unfair generalization, but it is not entirely untrue.

I decided not to describe the new gamer, as it would certainly lead to trolling. But I think it is safe to say that the background and reason for playing games is not the same.

Preferences in games will show, and as the classic mmorpg lover I am, I can only define the mmorpg genre from that perspective. I like and play loads of other games, I just hate it when they are called mmorpgs, because to me they are not.

Originally posted by Gravarg

I've said it for years, the community is the main thing that makes or breaks a game.  In older MMOs, the community was very tight-knit.  Today, everyone is in it for themselves, and couldn't care less for other players.  In older MMOs, there were actually petitions (and sometimes didn't even need one) for Devs to even put in statues and memorials for players that passed away.  In one of my old old timey MMOs the Devs even put in an entire town named after a player since he was the leader of one of the major guilds in the game.  Now you'll never see anything of the like.  Community on just about every game I've played (except Rift, FFXI, DAoC) should get a community score of 1-3 out of 10.

And with the current trend of MMOs that have been released, they all encourage solo play. There is nothing in these games anymore that promotes community, and what's left is still being further destroyed.

Cross Server Grouping - No one gives a **** who they're grouped with and probably won't ever see them again, why build a relationship?

Cross Server Raiding - What's the point of a guild now? Run with a guild to do the same content again for +3 more stats to underwater basket weaving, while having to schedule raids out ahead of time? Why bother?

The Death of Crafting - Most of the older MMOs I played had a very tight nit crafting community. Crafted gear was actually worth something and you had to "seek" out a crafter that was able to fulfill your needs. Gear had a quality and durability attribute assigned to it which would affect stats, all crafters were not equal.

Fast Travel/Flying Mounts - While not always a bad thing, is often done to the point where game immersion is lost, the majority of content can be bypassed, and kills world PvP if you're into that kind of thing. World PvP develops community, rivalries just aren't formed anymore. Remember seeing a certain player name or guild and trying to gank them? or trying not to get ganked?

General Hand Holding - Most games tell you exactly what to do now, there's no mystery in it or sense of discovery anymore. Go to "x" quest hub, follow arrow to "y" quest. As linear as the second dimmension. 

Instancing - While it can have a relevancy, I find when it's overdone it completely destroys the point of the game being an MMO in the first place. Also, I've seen quite a number of posts on various game forums asking for solo instances, what are these people looking for in an MMO anyways? What does this offer over some SP RPG or CO-OP RPG? Why spend years of developement time to make a giant open world when in the end the player is off grinding in some instance over and over? Why spend thousands of dollars on equipment to put everyone on the same server when in the end, the instanced dungeon grinding would be more cost effective running on your own PC for the developer?

I know I will probably get responses telling me there are games out there that do what I am looking for, the problem for me though is I haven't seen one that offers the quality, polish, content, and responsiveness of todays AAA MMOs.

End Soapbox Rant.

Originally posted by tixylix

They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3. They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.

For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this. 

Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game. 

It's happening and happened to SWTOR already...

People are already asking for fast travel every, the ability to just warp to any planet from your location. They're already asking for faster vehicles because they hate the travel times which in SWTOR are so small as it is. In beta they added the fleets which basically took everyone out of the worlds and put them in a social hub where they just stay there. Most people now just sit there get groups for flashpoints and battlegrounds and level up on that stuff like what happened to WoW. The worlds have no one in them because these people playing do not want to play an MMO, they just want to play Guild Wars. 

We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.  

What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.

 

Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004. 

 

 

SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.