My main issues -

Faction/side balance
Class balance is terrible
Too much CC (stun, knock down, pulled up, pushed back, slowed, rooted, spun in circles, harpooned, choked). Yeah, all good stuff. You know how you eliminate player skill from PVP? You take away the players ability to do anything i.e. CC
Forced minigame grind
No WZ premade only queue
Too much emphasis on gear over skill
RNG boxes for pvp gear. All your hard work doing the minigame grind is ruined by luck = terrible system
Ilum is beyond terrible. It's nothing but a mindless zergfest and box clicking. It's not world PVP, it's just glorfied empty zone they put together overnight and said 'PVP done, enjoy'. And as for objectives on Ilum? lol. Click on 3 of the enemies droids/structures, 30 seconds later you own the objective? ROFL. Sorry, but Ilum is TERRIBLE.

But my main one... World PVP is next to non-existant, and clearly overlooked in favor of the forced minigame grind model *yawn*.

It's pretty clear that PVP never got much attention, so I really doubt anything is going to change soon. And the fact that they just announced a new SAME SIDE warzone (like huttball), seems they aren't looking at overhauling there terrible pvp system and fixing the unbalanced factions, but rather... add a few more bandaids and hope for the best.

This is just my opinion.  

1) Bioware needs to realize they have an awesome built in conflict.  Sith vs Jedi.   Then add a third faction(In an expansion).  Who cares what it is.  Something either side can latch onto.  

2) Add more open world PvP and make it actually matter.   From what I understand they still offer no rewards for open world PvP.   No valor gained from killing opposing forces?  Really Bioware?   That is number two.

3) GIve players free server transfers to imblanced servers.  Right now I understand that is the biggest problem on many game servers.   To many IMP's.   The server loads have been adjusted to accomadate more players supposedly, so let players transfer to a new server free of charge to help balance them out.  

4)  Add open world PvP objectives.    Taking control of points in the worlds means players gain more valor for their side when they control certain points.

5) Add other incentives to participate in open world PvP.   Give loot bonuses, exp bonuses, a drop in prices from vendors, cost of skill training could be lowered if you control x number of planets.   There are many things they could do to make PvP deeper and more engaging and worthwhile.

6) Add PvP space combat challenges.    One side has to defend a convoy of ships,  The other side is attacking.   Players have to defend a starbase.   Again...it doesn't take much to add PvP space if Bioware can allow for open romaing space flight.    BTW it can be done.   Just as EVE does with their tournaments, just have a huge bubble that will keep players within that area of space.  Ifthey venture out of the bubble - their ship is destroyed. 

7) If you are going to add BG's at least do them as well as Altrec Valley, Wintergrasp, and Tol Barad.   That would go a long way in adding more enjoyable PvP.   I have seen my friend play Ilum and that is a sorry excuse for a BG.

There is 7 things right now Bioware could do to help make PvP more interesting.

What I'd like to see from PvP is a hell of a lot more rewards that give you no power advantage,  only more options (like how BF3 is). I want a lot more cosmetic gear options that actually look good, gear that gives a bonus to hybrid skill trees or builds other than the typical (5/31/5), or mods for weapons that give them a new sound effects or unique blaster bolt visuals.

Besides the faction imbalances and glitches favoring one side and snares not counting towards resolve. 

The big ticket no one seems to mention is input delay/ability lag.

Patch notes say the improved the delay but we'll have to test it out.

Originally posted by Teala

This is just my opinion.  

1) Bioware needs to realize they have an awesome built in conflict.  Sith vs Jedi.   Then add a third faction(In an expansion).  Who cares what it is.  Something either side can latch onto.  

2) Add more open world PvP and make it actually matter.   From what I understand they still offer no rewards for open world PvP.   No valor gained from killing opposing forces?  Really Bioware?   That is number two.

3) GIve players free server transfers to imblanced servers.  Right now I understand that is the biggest problem on many game servers.   To many IMP's.   The server loads have been adjusted to accomadate more players supposedly, so let players transfer to a new server free of charge to help balance them out.  

4)  Add open world PvP objectives.    Taking control of points in the worlds means players gain more valor for their side when they control certain points.

5) Add other incentives to participate in open world PvP.   Give loot bonuses, exp bonuses, a drop in prices from vendors, cost of skill training could be lowered if you control x number of planets.   There are many things they could do to make PvP deeper and more engaging and worthwhile.

6) Add PvP space combat challenges.    One side has to defend a convoy of ships,  The other side is attacking.   Players have to defend a starbase.   Again...it doesn't take much to add PvP space if Bioware can allow for open romaing space flight.    BTW it can be done.   Just as EVE does with their tournaments, just have a huge bubble that will keep players within that area of space.  Ifthey venture out of the bubble - their ship is destroyed. 

7) If you are going to add BG's at least do them as well as Altrec Valley, Wintergrasp, and Tol Barad.   That would go a long way in adding more enjoyable PvP.   I have seen my friend play Ilum and that is a sorry excuse for a BG.

There is 7 things right now Bioware could do to help make PvP more interesting.

 

1) A third faction would undoubtedly be comprised of at least Smugglers and Bounty Hunters (an underworld faction, if you will) but we're pretty much past the point of no return on that.

2) You do actually gain Valor for killing players, though this may only apply to killing them in the designated open world PvP areas such as Battle for Ilum and Outlaw's Den. Killing players in random areas of the world on a PvP server doesnt award Valor to my knowledge (someone correct me if  I am wrong!).

3) Agreed. It's in the article! ;)

4) This already exists (Ilum). They definitely could use more -- but improving the existing experience and then using that as a baseline for new ones is probably the better course of action.

5) I agree, for the most part. Though I personally prefer the PvP incentives only affect PvP.  My own suggestions are, of course, in the article.

6) I don't think space as it is currently implemented really works in a way that allows for this. I'm hoping they do an entirely different space experience in the future that would naturally facilitate co-operative and PvP play.

7) Ilum isn't a BG (or Warzone, in this case). I do enjoy the current set of Warzones, but your mileage may vary here. In any case, a new one will be introduced next month. :)

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Here's one really great spot to start . GET RID OF STUNS. I'm not sure why mmo makers feel that having a stun/hold mechanics are a good idea , it's an even worse idea in pvp. If you want dynamic flowing pvp , get rid of stuns/holds . It's the most exploited mechanic in mmo pvp. If they won't remove it , severely nerf the ability in pvp areas and zones.

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Teala

This is just my opinion.  

1) Bioware needs to realize they have an awesome built in conflict.  Sith vs Jedi.   Then add a third faction(In an expansion).  Who cares what it is.  Something either side can latch onto.  

2) Add more open world PvP and make it actually matter.   From what I understand they still offer no rewards for open world PvP.   No valor gained from killing opposing forces?  Really Bioware?   That is number two.

3) GIve players free server transfers to imblanced servers.  Right now I understand that is the biggest problem on many game servers.   To many IMP's.   The server loads have been adjusted to accomadate more players supposedly, so let players transfer to a new server free of charge to help balance them out.  

4)  Add open world PvP objectives.    Taking control of points in the worlds means players gain more valor for their side when they control certain points.

5) Add other incentives to participate in open world PvP.   Give loot bonuses, exp bonuses, a drop in prices from vendors, cost of skill training could be lowered if you control x number of planets.   There are many things they could do to make PvP deeper and more engaging and worthwhile.

6) Add PvP space combat challenges.    One side has to defend a convoy of ships,  The other side is attacking.   Players have to defend a starbase.   Again...it doesn't take much to add PvP space if Bioware can allow for open romaing space flight.    BTW it can be done.   Just as EVE does with their tournaments, just have a huge bubble that will keep players within that area of space.  Ifthey venture out of the bubble - their ship is destroyed. 

7) If you are going to add BG's at least do them as well as Altrec Valley, Wintergrasp, and Tol Barad.   That would go a long way in adding more enjoyable PvP.   I have seen my friend play Ilum and that is a sorry excuse for a BG.

There is 7 things right now Bioware could do to help make PvP more interesting.

 

1) A third faction would undoubtedly be comprised of at least Smugglers and Bounty Hunters (an underworld faction, if you will) but we're pretty much past the point of no return on that.

I have seen players asking for a third neutral faction or just another faction in general.  I think Bioware could add one.  It won't happen over night, but it could be a goal they can shoot for in an expansion.  If anything it'll give players another option - and options are always good.

2) You do actually gain Valor for killing players, though this may only apply to killing them in the designated open world PvP areas such as Battle for Ilum and Outlaw's Den. Killing players in random areas of the world on a PvP server doesnt award Valor to my knowledge (someone correct me if  I am wrong!).

Only indisgnated areas.  I am talking anywhere Imps and Repubs have a chacne to kill one another - anywhere.  That is open world PvP.

3) Agreed. It's in the article! ;) 

Yep it is...at least we both see this is a must.

4) This already exists (Ilum). They definitely could use more -- but improving the existing experience and then using that as a baseline for new ones is probably the better course of action.

Ilum is just one planet.  I am talking all the planets IMP's and Repubs come in contact.   Once they leave the starter worlds there should be bases they can hold - anything really that will cause players to engage in PvP.

5) I agree, for the most part. Though I personally prefer the PvP incentives only affect PvP.  My own suggestions are, of course, in the article.

:)

6) I don't think space as it is currently implemented really works in a way that allows for this. I'm hoping they do an entirely different space experience in the future that would naturally facilitate co-operative and PvP play.

Well anything right now is better than nothing.  Even if the PvP space conflict is just a huge bubble in space, that is better than none at all.

7) Ilum isn't a BG (or Warzone, in this case). I do enjoy the current set of Warzones, but your mileage may vary here. In any case, a new one will be introduced next month. :)

Well you can hope that that the next battleground is more engaging.   :)

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Always a pleasure. 

Dark Age of Camelot came out ten years ago. 

If a company as prolific as the huttball manufacturing companies above has to ask "how," it just means someone at the office got bored.

At best, players will get more instanced huttball experiences.  Sure some will have better laser light shows - but in the end it will be a capture the flag mechanic where every class on the lego land battlefield has a mirror.

/welcome to the era of vanilla.

The problem with 2 faction games is just that THEY HAVE 2 FACTIONS.

This results in one side being overbearing or perceived as the "better" side.  Years of complaints by gamers have not resulted in a third faction in any profitable or even pay 2 play mmorpg.  While I would like to see that third wild card faction that breaks up the hum drum (rhymes with dum...) of a stalemate pvp system, it just isn't going to happen.

In regards to a bounty hunter smuggler faction being the third - the reality as well is that if SW:ToR broke the mold (no one does this) of the WoW corporate model and made a third faction, they would have plenty of races and classes to choose from.  However, since they have already subscribed to making mirror classes for both sides, they would undoubtedly do the same for a third faction.

We would see Moglai warriors who use rage as a mechanic.  THere would be a caster class that can heal - and it would have one light saber.  etc., etc., etc.

The genre is vanilla.  GOod news is a lot of folks love vanilla, otherwise, the WoW corporate model of "Do unto  your own game as we have done to ours," would not be profitable.

And by the way, MIKEB the MMORPG.COM Community Manager is spot on.  You nailed it.  Gods, I wish there were developers with your sense.  And c'mon folks, even you free for all so called non care bear pvp games.  Aren't you sick of the same old mirrored class cosmetic race 2 faction games?  Seriously, I am.

Originally posted by Teala
[snip]

I'll address the third faction bit a little further. There aren't really, in terms of Star Wars, many ways to go with a third faction that doesn't also involve Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, and these are both established in the lore for this particular game as throwing their hats in with the Republic (Smuggler) and Empire (Bounty Hunters). A theoretical third faction would have to include both of these plus two more and again there aren't really many archetypes to choose from that would fit in here. Slicer and Crime Lord were ones I suggested back in 2009, but Slicing has been relegated to a Crew Skill, and I'm not too sure Crime Lord fits in with what I know about the game now.

However, this isn't even really the main issue. When asked in the past, the real reason BioWare didn't go for a third faction was simple: cost. Those of us who love PvP, as passionate as we may be, really only represent a smaller fraction of the playerbase. In order to accomodate us, BioWare would have to create new class storylines and quest experiences for basically a whole new faction. The impetus to do so isn't really there, especially if the main reason is to facilitate PvP in an ideal but not required manner.

You can argue that this is one of the many compromises BioWare had to make in order to give us a story-centric MMO and whether that was ultimately worth it to you, but I really think that anyone hoping for a third faction in an expansion is going to be waiting a long time, or well, forever. Four entirely new classes, eight new main voice actors, four new starships, an entirely new 1-50 quest track with unique sidequests and Flashpoint content -- all to make PvP more ideal?  All the existing PvP content and everything developed on the PvP front between now and then would also have to be reworked to take a third faction into account. There are cheaper and more creative ways to work within the current design and the economics involved would point to that as being the most likely option.

I hate having to be the realist here -- but it is what it is. I'd love for a third 'Underworld' faction as much as the next guy. It would make for a great and natural theme for an expansion. Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, anyone? :) I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, Bioware!

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Teala
[snip]

I'll address the third faction bit a little further. There aren't really, in terms of Star Wars, many ways to go with a third faction that doesn't also involve Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, and these are both established in the lore for this particular game as throwing their hats in with the Republic (Smuggler) and Empire (Bounty Hunters). A theoretical third faction would have to include both of these plus two more and again there aren't really many archetypes to choose from that would fit in here. Slicer and Crime Lord were ones I suggested back in 2009, but Slicing has been relegated to a Crew Skill, and I'm not too sure Crime Lord fits in with what I know about the game now.

However, this isn't even really the main issue. When asked in the past, the real reason BioWare didn't go for a third faction was simple: cost. Those of us who love PvP, as passionate as we may be, really only represent a smaller fraction of the playerbase. In order to accomodate us, BioWare would have to create new class storylines and quest experiences for basically a whole new faction. The impetus to do so isn't really there, especially if the main reason is to facilitate PvP in an ideal but not required manner.

You can argue that this is one of the many compromises BioWare had to make in order to give us a story-centric MMO and whether that was ultimately worth it to you, but I really think that anyone hoping for a third faction in an expansion is going to be waiting a long time, or well, forever. Four entirely new classes, eight new main voice actors, four new starships, an entirely new 1-50 quest track with unique sidequests and Flashpoint content -- all to make PvP more ideal?  All the existing PvP content and everything developed on the PvP front between now and then would also have to be reworked to take a third faction into account. There are cheaper and more creative ways to work within the current design and the economics involved would point to that as being the most likely option.

I hate having to be the realist here -- but it is what it is. I'd love for a third 'Underworld' faction as much as the next guy. It would make for a great and natural theme for an expansion. Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, anyone? :) I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, Bioware!

You make an excellent point.   Can't argue with the reality of the way the game is set up and like you said the lore is kind of a hindrance. It sure would be nice to see Bioware prove us both wrong.  :)

"You should have gone with a three faction game!” Sure, I’d be strongly inclined to agree, but at this point that’s not happening"

Why not? If you think for one second that people wouldn'yt jump the Imperial ship for a Mandalorian 3rd faction, you are crazy. If BW introduced Mandalorians as a playable third faction, with mirrored classes of course, the problem would easily sort itself out.

Im perplexed at the question of the article in context to what was delivered.  The OP's origonal thought is backwards imho.  The elephant in the room is the lack of acknowledgement that this is a single-player rpg/corpg and giving it passing grade as a subscription-based mmo. 

The origonal question should remain how to improve this game as a mmorpg first, but by trying to address this bolt-on pathetically deliverd arena third-person shooter pvp while making belive fixing PvP should take foreground conversation is silly.

What did you expect from a cinematic single-player rpg studio in terms of pvp, let alone mmo.  Now some are going to spend the next year "hoping" the game turns into what it will never be. . .like STO all over again, and again.

I love how people believe a 3 faction game will fix anything. Anarchy Online was three faction. Neutrals never did crap because GM's and story walked all over them.

Three factions wont do anything if the third faction isnt compelling. Would the Mandlorians be the answer? No. unless you're willing to make them a MASSIVE threat and bring storyline about to break from the Sith and run their own road. Like Ordo's descendent rising to power and telling Malgus to fuck off.  If you're going to go three faction you have to potentially consider the VOSS. The storyline allows it. They've got access to force powers and can create a completely new set of classes. The Voss would be an awesome third faciton

And best of all you wouldnt have to go single species would you? Not like the mandalorians (technically)

Factional pride gets killed for at the least trooper by the time you're in act 1. No way around it. The person you work for is a cold-hearted bitch and more than once through the prelude i wanted to blast her face clean off for her decisions. Jedi Knight is significantly better but sentinel suffers from HUGE issues in PVP. The afformentioned CC madness basically makes them a pinball.

Crew Skills: HELL YES HELL YES. Release the BOP locks on the Purple items for each class and let people start selling them add in armor and PVP mods for any group that can make them. Give a new crystal that adds expertise. You can really do something here to make crew skills far more important. (I'm one of maybe 2 people on my server with the Magenta Crit Crystal recipe)

Get rid of the PvE style gear grind that are in most thempark MMOs.  LoL isn't perfect, but at least it focuses people on winning.  21/4/15 means nothing if you loose and you're rewrded appropriately for it.  Many FPSs also manage to creat diversity between players without totally unbalancing the game before it even starts.

MMOs are the only genre of game where you can begin a match with no hope of winning due to a system design problem.

Originally posted by Zarynterk

"You should have gone with a three faction game!” Sure, I’d be strongly inclined to agree, but at this point that’s not happening"

 

Why not? If you think for one second that people wouldn'yt jump the Imperial ship for a Mandalorian 3rd faction, you are crazy. If BW introduced Mandalorians as a playable third faction, with mirrored classes of course, the problem would easily sort itself out.

 

See my above post. :)

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Teala
[snip]

I'll address the third faction bit a little further. There aren't really, in terms of Star Wars, many ways to go with a third faction that doesn't also involve Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, and these are both established in the lore for this particular game as throwing their hats in with the Republic (Smuggler) and Empire (Bounty Hunters). A theoretical third faction would have to include both of these plus two more and again there aren't really many archetypes to choose from that would fit in here. Slicer and Crime Lord were ones I suggested back in 2009, but Slicing has been relegated to a Crew Skill, and I'm not too sure Crime Lord fits in with what I know about the game now.

However, this isn't even really the main issue. When asked in the past, the real reason BioWare didn't go for a third faction was simple: cost. Those of us who love PvP, as passionate as we may be, really only represent a smaller fraction of the playerbase. In order to accomodate us, BioWare would have to create new class storylines and quest experiences for basically a whole new faction. The impetus to do so isn't really there, especially if the main reason is to facilitate PvP in an ideal but not required manner.

You can argue that this is one of the many compromises BioWare had to make in order to give us a story-centric MMO and whether that was ultimately worth it to you, but I really think that anyone hoping for a third faction in an expansion is going to be waiting a long time, or well, forever. Four entirely new classes, eight new main voice actors, four new starships, an entirely new 1-50 quest track with unique sidequests and Flashpoint content -- all to make PvP more ideal?  All the existing PvP content and everything developed on the PvP front between now and then would also have to be reworked to take a third faction into account. There are cheaper and more creative ways to work within the current design and the economics involved would point to that as being the most likely option.

I hate having to be the realist here -- but it is what it is. I'd love for a third 'Underworld' faction as much as the next guy. It would make for a great and natural theme for an expansion. Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, anyone? :) I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, Bioware!

Yes an no.

Let me explain. The third faction must not mandatorily come with new classes nor V.O. Story.

It could be unlocked through the legacy system and be a feature like one of your topped (or maybe not) character is becoming rogue or something and being transferred into this faction. Then the fun would start with new objectives, new fluffy items, new companions (that barely speak) and so on.

How to fix PvP in SWTOR?

Just copy what WoW did. I mean they pretty much did that for the rest of the game!

WoW PvP blows ass, don't even mention it here ever again. Just because your first game was WoW doesn't mean it is good, especially at PvP. I want Open World PvP that isn't absolute garbage.

The only way to fix it is to put in a third faction. DAOC is the king of open world PvP, I don't know why developers do not follow this model, it is completely idiotic on every account.

The only way to salvage it at all would be to introduce a 3rd "rebel" faction or something. Let anyone from either side join it. When you join it you could easily change class names to match it based on whatever class you were.

This could be for PvP only, or a separate faction entirely. Right now, SWTOR PvP is probably unsalvageable, mainly due to the IP. It is pretty non-impressive on every account. But the only way to even have a hint of hope would be to have 3 factions, and allow people to change their characters to it. Hell, you could even allow migration from Imp-> Rebel and back, and Republic->Rebel and back.

Camping at base spawns with a bunch of bad players that don't know how to play isn't fun. Make the objectives more like outposts or keeps that you have to take. See WAR and DAOC ... All this instant kill BS is so dumb. If they are losing the battle, then let people go in and freaking destroy them. It is a PvP zone, who freaking cares if you die?

It is also pretty apparent that most people playing the game have zero PvP experience at all. There is no flanking, repositioning or surprise attacks that I have seen. Everyone literally just camps at the bases and kills eachother dancing around the instant kill line.

Either way, I doubt I will be playing after this month, as it is a pretty easy game, and the PvP is lame, there will not be much to do soon. Hopefully a development team will hire some people with half a brain and make a game that actually works. Right now, this is easily one of the worst Open World PvP games made that I have ever seen. Population imbalance will always be an issue, you have to be smart enough to design the game around it.

I am basically just writing SWTOR off as a PvE carebear game at this point. There are no real fights and no real PvP strategy and war. Lets not kid ourselves, at this point, this game is going no where for the REAL PvP crowd. It just appeases the retarded WoW kiddies that think 3v3 arena games are the best thing ever. Instanced PvP will never come close to the scale and fun Open World PvP can bring. The only game to come even close in the past 10 years has been WAR. They failed miserably at the 3 faction system as well (what the hell Mythic?), but at least it was dynamic and awesome most of the time.

/rant off

Even if they had balanced factions the PVP in the game is still completely flawed.

Ilum is broken, the objectives are a joke (click 3 mechs?!?!), the pvp is unrewarding (if you can even find it), and the crate clicking incentive is terrible. This map rewards nothing more than travel in a zerg bigger than the other teams, and make sure you tag (damage) every player you gank.

PVP minigames is where they have focused what little attention they gave PVP, so even if the sides were more evenly balanced, the best outcome would be that you get more variation of the 3 minigames you are forced to grind for pvp gear, gear you are required to get to stay competitive. Yay?

TBH, If they wanted to make a decent PVP game they shouldn't have followed the same formula (except worse) that failed them under Warhammer. They should have learnt from their mistakes, and the mistakes of all the other recent MMO's where PVP died...and instead made a game where PVP isn't just some pointless minigame grind and where their are only two factions.

Maybe they can get some idea's from this: http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/2012/01/guild-wars-2-pvp-roundtable/