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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars: The Old Republic: How to Improve PvP

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108 posts found
  catlana

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 1684

Playing GW2, ToR, PoE
Played AoC, Aion, DDO, EQ2, CoH, Rift, TERA, WAR, WoW

1/24/12 12:21:05 PM#41

Originally posted by warbot7777

I agree with most of this. I wish they'd fix the damn resolve bar :(





 


I agree with fixing the resolve bar. First, I want a fix to the ability delay issue thou. I have heard good things about today's patch helping for the ability delay issue. Ilum is still awful as well. Still, I have been having a great time on my alt since the 50 pvp bracket came in.  


  holifeet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 534

1/24/12 12:27:38 PM#42

People will complain about the PvP in TOR till the cows come home, but I think there is one major, overriding fact that's not being taken in to account.


TOR was never hyped as a PvP game, was it? It's essentially a PvE game with some PvP tacked on to keep the masses happy.


Those masses are all the people that seem to think any new MMO must have some PvP in it to make it a hit. You see it everywhere. Where's the PvP? What are the PvP factions? What, no PvP?


I don't mind PvP, even though I'm pathetic at it, but TOR has made me seriously meh meh on PvP. I can't stand Huttball, and it's the only warzone I ever get, so I've stopped doing warzones. I like open world PvP but I never see any. I've seen a few republic running about in the high level questing zones but it's only ever one-versus-one (or actually more often two-versus-one in republic favour - they stick together often). I don't find that fun though.


I'm actually wishing I hadn't rolled on a PvP server, mainly because there's no point in having done so. I'm hampered often by republic underdogs sticking together (which I don't blame them for) but the Empire don't look out for each other. I've mentioned in chat before that there's a nuisance jedi causing havoc somewhere and gotten a 'so what' reply. The other day I saw someone say that the Republic were camping a quest hub and the reply was 'yeah, they always do'. Maybe that just echoes that PvP in TOR is a grind taking place in warzones.


The problem is that PvP should be just an add on. It should be carefully thought out and have some meaning. I don't blame BW/EA for this though. I blame the community that insist on every game having PvP. That's what brings this on. BW/EA have no choice but to tack on a bit of PvP or their game will be slated across the spectrum of internet gamers, and more so than it is now. 'No PvP, what the heck'?


People insist on PVP in a game so the devs tack some on. It doesn't work how people wnat it to, even though the game might not be a pure PvPer, and they complain. Do people ever consider that TOR isn't a hardcore PvPer? No, they don't. Should they consider this? Yes, they should.


Let's have games that are designed (from the get go) for PvP or games that aren't. Not games that are 'a bit of this' tacked on.


 


I'm looking forward to PvP in GW2 because ArenaNet appear to have been really thinking about it. There's the obligatory small team matches and then there's much hyped world versus world battles that pit three servers against each other. It's thought about, not tacked on. And there'll be no under populated faction against an over populated faction.


 


Just one last point to say I really am enjoying TOR, but I like it for the PvE and the story. I'm seriously bored of the PvP and wish I hadn't rolled on a PvP server.


All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
.

  Xanderxavier

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/08
Posts: 16

1/24/12 12:38:23 PM#43

A decent article but it assumes the current state of the game is caused by a problem, which I challenge, faction inbalance is likely temporary, for an average gamer who works and isnt fed electricity by introvenous drip, and cant play every night and when they can it's only for a few hours, they'll be about lvl 47 by now from early access, why because I hit that a few days ago, and havent had the time to play since, but should again today, neverthless I chose Sith Warrior as my first character, when it hits 50 and i sort it out properly I decided on Republic Smuggler next, why sith well it's unusual in comparison with the being good thing, so stands out as a great 1st char, i strongly suspect I'm not alone in that conviction but SWTOR is a game as such that as soon as you've capped one char youll get round to new ones, so whilst the empire has a big lead for now, many people once they cap they're empire char's will next go for a Republic char, so the faction balance may well become scued the opposite way around, given the number of char's ahead of us in this game and unlike most MMO's where if i made more than one char I rarely levelled them far unless I liked the game but disliked the gameplay of the first one, theres a real reason to level other char's in this game the unique storylines, and different gameplay experience combines actually gives me a reason to, and I suspect many others will to, but it is true, pvp needs allot of balance sub-50 if you place player's together they should have equal damage, you shouldnt get arse raped, and a lvl 10 facing a lvl 49 gets it in the butt just as hard as they would from a lvl 50, so it's hardly a fix. them seperating 50 finally but im not sure if just making level tier's is tne answer maybe provide further tweaks for lowe rhcars to make them equal to the higher ones in pvp zones instead, that way people levelling up and people playing their existing 50 char's can play together which is good but atm all it means is your not lvl 50 and pvp prepare to die... miserably allot unfairly.


  UtukuMoon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/11
Posts: 1109

1/24/12 12:46:47 PM#44

Personally i think it runs alot deeper than just fixing PVP,they made a big bobo using the hero engine.Anyone who thinks that BioWare have not thought about all these pvp ideas over the 6 years is delusional.They have had devs from DAOC working with them and devs from war.

It's to little to late,the backdrop was set the day they agreed to use the crap graphics engine they built this game on.All this "with time bioware can" blah blah is just wishful thinking,they haven't got time.

Any serious PVP gamer would choose daoc three faction type pvp over swtor and sorry to bring it up but GW2 is that game.

Believe me when GW2 comes out many PVPers from swtor will switch.

BioWare can't turn back the clock and change the hero engine,this is imo what is stopping them going all out on RVR type PVP,the engine can't handle that type of PVP.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8ymgFyzbDo

  Shubawkss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/11
Posts: 57

1/24/12 1:06:01 PM#45

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

BioWare will never be able to improve the PvP significantly.


 


This is because SWTOR was never designed for PvP - it was designed for storytelling.


 


In contrast, Eve Online was designed for open world PvP on one server.


 


Unfortunately, you have to 'choose the right tool for the right job'.


 


SWTOR serves as a decent break from Eve Online though.



 


I'd prefer to not sit there and look at a space ship for hours on end. I don't understand how EvE is fun.. it MUST be a subjective, I find it so utterly boring. T_T


 


On the other hand, I love this Article, and I do believe they need to fix other things besides just the PvP aspects of the game, some of the later Flashpoints leave out the importance of story - the very first Flash Point for Republic ( I cannot recall the name..) seemed to be the only one with a large storyline included, while the others seemed like a "grab and go" situation.


  Niquity

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/09
Posts: 33

1/24/12 1:13:37 PM#46

Im sorry, you mis understood what Bioware was telling people when they made the game about the things it would have and content you could be looking ford to.


ill let you know what they really said in short ....


 


Bioware "SWtor is our largest project every its larger than all thebioware games put together and we dont want this to be just and mmo you play when you have time we want this game to have EVERY THING you want, we only want you to play SWTOR.


Video link http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/video-documentary-1 4:20 in were he talked about what im posting here.


so you are wrong this should be every bit a pvp mmo as it every could be pve. and prob more so needs to be pvp focused because its aimed in that area more emp vs repub


  Niquity

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/09
Posts: 33

1/24/12 1:20:15 PM#47

Oh i also saw a few videos talking about how swtor is going be balaneced around pvp as well as pve dev doc vid #4




http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/video-documentary-4




 




so yeah back to my point. SWtor pvp needs work to hold up to the standard thay keep pushing.




they said many times they are a pvp game i dont see it yet..




 




 





 

  buegur

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 460

1/24/12 1:25:17 PM#48

In my opinion PvP should actually be RvR.  I want reasoned PvP play, I get bored killing people for no reason other than loot.  We need the old DAoC realm pride to go along with some reason I need to better my side such as taking relics and such.  I like Kylera ealier post which I think adds value for peeps who want a reason to fight.  Make planets with objectives and let us make cities/guilds on them to defend and expand, that would be exciting!  Making PvP WoW style just bores the heck out of me.

  Deeter

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 140

1/24/12 1:37:13 PM#49

I like how everyone said the Empire is full of kids and Republic was where the hardcore PVPers went.


At least TOR finally broke the mentality that the "cool" side is for babies.


  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4849

1/24/12 1:49:07 PM#50
Originally posted by Sylvarii

Personally i think it runs alot deeper than just fixing PVP,they made a big bobo using the hero engine.Anyone who thinks that BioWare have not thought about all these pvp ideas over the 6 years is delusional.They have had devs from DAOC working with them and devs from war.

It's to little to late,the backdrop was set the day they agreed to use the crap graphics engine they built this game on.All this "with time bioware can" blah blah is just wishful thinking,they haven't got time.

Any serious PVP gamer would choose daoc three faction type pvp over swtor and sorry to bring it up but GW2 is that game.

Believe me when GW2 comes out many PVPers from swtor will switch.

BioWare can't turn back the clock and change the hero engine,this is imo what is stopping them going all out on RVR type PVP,the engine can't handle that type of PVP.

 

 

Sadly this is true.

 

SWTOR is just not setup to be a PvP game. Never has been. The PvP is 'just enough' to say it's there, but that's it. Could they improve upon it? Sure, to a point, but the engine does limit some things (like responsiveness / lag), and to be honest the amount of time / resources it would take to do enough of a revamp makes PvP becoming that much better highly unlikely. That said, there are a surprising amount of players that don't mind getting huttball for the millionth time in a row, or still enjoy Illum even though it's a complete mess. I heard someone mentioning them adding arena-like rankings, which I'm sure will also please another chunk of people.

Whether they care to admit it or not, this game is following the same progression as WoW. Almost to a T, and many players seem to like it that way. I expect that in the coming months, PvP in TOR will basically be like PvP in WoW from a year or two back. It'll be fun for many, but this will never be a PvP game, and I think Bioware has made that pretty clear.

  Niquity

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/09
Posts: 33

1/24/12 2:18:20 PM#51

i Agree the engine is crap iv looked at the hero engine webpage it looks good on the page but once you get your hands on it it does feel clunky.


and yes some of the Mythic guys did work on the game but are not over seeing the pvp department. that guy that is over seeing that department is shockly young for such a huge task.


i also am not sure if the Mythic guys even working in this game were the same guys that made DAoC a great pvp game if i was the guy that worked on DAoC and shaded land scape i can say i worked on that game but that dont mean im going to develope a great pvp game like we saw in DAoC


  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

1/24/12 2:32:03 PM#52
Originally posted by holifeet

People will complain about the PvP in TOR till the cows come home, but I think there is one major, overriding fact that's not being taken in to account.


TOR was never hyped as a PvP game, was it? It's essentially a PvE game with some PvP tacked on to keep the masses happy.


Those masses are all the people that seem to think any new MMO must have some PvP in it to make it a hit. You see it everywhere. Where's the PvP? What are the PvP factions? What, no PvP?


I don't mind PvP, even though I'm pathetic at it, but TOR has made me seriously meh meh on PvP. I can't stand Huttball, and it's the only warzone I ever get, so I've stopped doing warzones. I like open world PvP but I never see any. I've seen a few republic running about in the high level questing zones but it's only ever one-versus-one (or actually more often two-versus-one in republic favour - they stick together often). I don't find that fun though.


I'm actually wishing I hadn't rolled on a PvP server, mainly because there's no point in having done so. I'm hampered often by republic underdogs sticking together (which I don't blame them for) but the Empire don't look out for each other. I've mentioned in chat before that there's a nuisance jedi causing havoc somewhere and gotten a 'so what' reply. The other day I saw someone say that the Republic were camping a quest hub and the reply was 'yeah, they always do'. Maybe that just echoes that PvP in TOR is a grind taking place in warzones.


The problem is that PvP should be just an add on. It should be carefully thought out and have some meaning. I don't blame BW/EA for this though. I blame the community that insist on every game having PvP. That's what brings this on. BW/EA have no choice but to tack on a bit of PvP or their game will be slated across the spectrum of internet gamers, and more so than it is now. 'No PvP, what the heck'?


People insist on PVP in a game so the devs tack some on. It doesn't work how people wnat it to, even though the game might not be a pure PvPer, and they complain. Do people ever consider that TOR isn't a hardcore PvPer? No, they don't. Should they consider this? Yes, they should.


Let's have games that are designed (from the get go) for PvP or games that aren't. Not games that are 'a bit of this' tacked on.


 


I'm looking forward to PvP in GW2 because ArenaNet appear to have been really thinking about it. There's the obligatory small team matches and then there's much hyped world versus world battles that pit three servers against each other. It's thought about, not tacked on. And there'll be no under populated faction against an over populated faction.


 


Just one last point to say I really am enjoying TOR, but I like it for the PvE and the story. I'm seriously bored of the PvP and wish I hadn't rolled on a PvP server.

 

To be fair, we hear the exact same argument from PvEer's, even on PvP based games. We also hear the exact same argument from Soloers on group based games.

I remember a ton of complaining when WAR first released. Even though it was a PvP focused game, there were constant complaints like "what If I dont feel like grouping, I just want to solo" or the famous "Its not fair that I have to worry about players attacking me while I grind on mobs".

Vanguard and FX got the same complaints about being "forced" to group, even though the devs stated from the beggining, that the game would be group based, and still you guys complain. Recently with all the F2P hype, we PvPers are getting yelled at even more than ever.

I dont see this changing soon either, in fact I would bet my bottom dollar that when PS2 comes out, there will be mobs of players complaining that they keep getting attack by other players, while "exploring".    lol?

  holifeet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 534

1/24/12 3:15:15 PM#53

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Personally i think it runs alot deeper than just fixing PVP,they made a big bobo using the hero engine.Anyone who thinks that BioWare have not thought about all these pvp ideas over the 6 years is delusional.They have had devs from DAOC working with them and devs from war.


It's to little to late,the backdrop was set the day they agreed to use the crap graphics engine they built this game on.All this "with time bioware can" blah blah is just wishful thinking,they haven't got time.


Any serious PVP gamer would choose daoc three faction type pvp over swtor and sorry to bring it up but GW2 is that game.


Believe me when GW2 comes out many PVPers from swtor will switch.


BioWare can't turn back the clock and change the hero engine,this is imo what is stopping them going all out on RVR type PVP,the engine can't handle that type of PVP.


 



 


I'm sorry, but what has the engine and the graphics got to do with the quality of the PvP? Nothing, that's the answer.


This is just another post targeting the fact that you don't like SWTOR, isn't it?


Why does a graphics engine stop them from doing meaningful RvR?


All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
.

  Freche

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/07
Posts: 2

1/24/12 3:16:09 PM#54

SWTOR is no true Open World PVP game but rather a Lake PVP game, and Lake PVP together with the concept of Mass PVP will always fail due to faction imbalance (if the game only has two factions) and no matter of buffs or free transfers will change that.


What is needed is to spread people out and have a more skirmish focused PVP, but with todays MMO designs where we don't have to spend time in the world that wont happen.




  • If you want money, do dailes at these spot


  • If you want to get better gear do instances


  • If you want to PvP, do battlegrounds or go to this specific PvP lake.


  • Whatever you do, DO NOT EVER explore or spend time in the world.



The most fun OPEN world PVP is today almost always found while leveling.

  holifeet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 534

1/24/12 3:20:26 PM#55

Originally posted by Adalwulff


Originally posted by holifeet


People will complain about the PvP in TOR till the cows come home, but I think there is one major, overriding fact that's not being taken in to account.




TOR was never hyped as a PvP game, was it? It's essentially a PvE game with some PvP tacked on to keep the masses happy.




Those masses are all the people that seem to think any new MMO must have some PvP in it to make it a hit. You see it everywhere. Where's the PvP? What are the PvP factions? What, no PvP?




I don't mind PvP, even though I'm pathetic at it, but TOR has made me seriously meh meh on PvP. I can't stand Huttball, and it's the only warzone I ever get, so I've stopped doing warzones. I like open world PvP but I never see any. I've seen a few republic running about in the high level questing zones but it's only ever one-versus-one (or actually more often two-versus-one in republic favour - they stick together often). I don't find that fun though.




I'm actually wishing I hadn't rolled on a PvP server, mainly because there's no point in having done so. I'm hampered often by republic underdogs sticking together (which I don't blame them for) but the Empire don't look out for each other. I've mentioned in chat before that there's a nuisance jedi causing havoc somewhere and gotten a 'so what' reply. The other day I saw someone say that the Republic were camping a quest hub and the reply was 'yeah, they always do'. Maybe that just echoes that PvP in TOR is a grind taking place in warzones.




The problem is that PvP should be just an add on. It should be carefully thought out and have some meaning. I don't blame BW/EA for this though. I blame the community that insist on every game having PvP. That's what brings this on. BW/EA have no choice but to tack on a bit of PvP or their game will be slated across the spectrum of internet gamers, and more so than it is now. 'No PvP, what the heck'?




People insist on PVP in a game so the devs tack some on. It doesn't work how people wnat it to, even though the game might not be a pure PvPer, and they complain. Do people ever consider that TOR isn't a hardcore PvPer? No, they don't. Should they consider this? Yes, they should.




Let's have games that are designed (from the get go) for PvP or games that aren't. Not games that are 'a bit of this' tacked on.




 




I'm looking forward to PvP in GW2 because ArenaNet appear to have been really thinking about it. There's the obligatory small team matches and then there's much hyped world versus world battles that pit three servers against each other. It's thought about, not tacked on. And there'll be no under populated faction against an over populated faction.




 




Just one last point to say I really am enjoying TOR, but I like it for the PvE and the story. I'm seriously bored of the PvP and wish I hadn't rolled on a PvP server.



 


To be fair, we hear the exact same argument from PvEer's, even on PvP based games. We also hear the exact same argument from Soloers on group based games.


I remember a ton of complaining when WAR first released. Even though it was a PvP focused game, there were constant complaints like "what If I dont feel like grouping, I just want to solo" or the famous "Its not fair that I have to worry about players attacking me while I grind on mobs".


Vanguard and FX got the same complaints about being "forced" to group, even though the devs stated from the beggining, that the game would be group based, and still you guys complain. Recently with all the F2P hype, we PvPers are getting yelled at even more than ever.


I dont see this changing soon either, in fact I would bet my bottom dollar that when PS2 comes out, there will be mobs of players complaining that they keep getting attack by other players, while "exploring".    lol?



 


Well yes, I have to say I agree with you. My post wasn't meant to be a 'get at PvPers', so sorry if it came across like that. I was trying to get across that games need to be what they intend to be rather than appeasing as many groups as possible.


I may not be a hardcore PvPer, but I want to try PS2 and I won't be sitting there screaming that I can't explore...trust me. I'll be out shooting people, or helping my team to shoot people by engineering or crafting or healing for them.


A similar thing goes for hardcore PvP games such as Darkfall. I really thought mechanics sounded interesting in that game, but I wasn't in love with the very hardcore PvP environment so I stayed away.


The community, as a whole, does need to draw itself away from wanting everything in a game. If a game can do everything well, like GW2 seems to have a chance of doing so, then all is good. I just don't think SWTOR was ever meant to be a PvP focused game. People clamoured for PvP and got a half there add on. That's the problem.


All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
.

  Interitus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 136

1/24/12 3:35:15 PM#56

Non-force users need mobility. Sage/Inquisitor gets a speed buff. Warriors/Knights get a leap. The non-force users have no mobility, you are basically running around when people are jumping up and running past. This is really bad in huttball, but it works on all the maps. They need to do something to even it out.


 


And Huttball in general needs to leave. I am so sick of that game, because of the huge faction imbalance on my server I'll get something other then huttball 1/15 times..  In pvp you are basically stuck grinding for gear,  most of that pvp is huttball...  SO it's basically like I'm playing huttball all the time. whee...


  justinco

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 11

1/24/12 4:17:32 PM#57

Originally posted by Kyleran

My thoughts,  give people something really worth fighting for.  Create some sort of territory (make a new planet) where players/guilds can put their own fortresses down and defend them against all comers. 


Said fortresses should impart bonuses to the guild, and perhaps if enough fortresses exist impart factional bonuses to encourage everyone to assist each other within the faction.


Make the new planet contain valuable resources that can come from no where else but are extremely valuable, as a bonus make it so crafters can use them to create great new stuff.


Only reward people for fighting and killing, give no reward for just participating by standing around in the battlefield.


Reduce crowd control, it really only belongs in the hands of one or two classes. Reason being, then the focus in any battle will be to kill that person first, and then follow on to the healers.    


But make that person's crowd control very powerful, hence the desire to neutralize them quickly.   People decry DAOC's CC model but it was better than anything I've seen since, even if it did mean sometimes you were stuck for long periods of time.


None of this is likely to happen btw, maybe in the next game.


 


 



 




Good post. I too hope for all those things, but don't see it coming in SWtor either...


  Benthon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/07
Posts: 2132

Even if you can't hear me, you're still wrong.

1/24/12 4:22:40 PM#58

Great article, agree completely. Thanks for writing this!


He who keeps his cool best wins.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/24/12 4:34:30 PM#59

heres how, for future MMO developers.


the next time you clone WOW, copy the things it does well - e.g. dungeons


but don't copy the things it does badly - e.g. pvp (and crafting)


same applies to RIFT, not just SWTOR


 


seriously did anyone expect a story driven wow clone with in a box PVP to have good PVP?


 


 


  punkrock

Novice Member

Joined: 10/31/03
Posts: 1786

1/24/12 4:47:45 PM#60

Do a DAOC style pvp. That is the only way to do it. If people want to copy so much from other games, that is the game to copy PVP  from.


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