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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » should swtor have built their own engine?

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254 posts found
  xKingdomx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/10
Posts: 1549

1/24/12 8:54:26 AM#81
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by troublmaker

Very few MMOs can afford the time to make their own engine.  Warhammer Online and Rift used the Gamebryo engine.  DC Universe Online and Global Agenda use the Unreal Engine (with DCUO having Havoc Physics).  SWTOR is using The Hero Engine.  The only other game that used it was Faxion Online which was so terrible it lasted all of four months before closing down.

Making a gaming engine is not something any game developer will ever want to do.  The companies that make really good gaming engines are rich. Crytek for example (creators of the Cryengine 1, 2, and 3) have seven studios all busy on projects and all profiting heavily.

Epic Games have done so well with their Unreal Engine they ONLY make and configure gaming engines.

So yeah, gaming engines is big business.  It is also something that is expensive to make.

Usually when a new game engine is debuted it doesn't come from a gaming company.  It usually comes from a bunch of MIT type students who have spent 4 years of university working with a research team to develop it.  These gaming engines are debuted at conferences like E3 and are usually shown off at really cheap looking boothes using a pretty crappy home made game rendering that only shows the power the engine has.

Gaming engines take a long time to develop.  Crytek had an entire studio ONLY working on Cryengine 2 and it took THREE YEARS for them to make it.

If you are building an MMO you do not have time to build your own gaming engine.

The only MMO to have built its own gaming engine is Funcom with Age of Conan.  They built this engine for The Secret World and adapted it to Age of Conan to show off their engine.  Oh and of course World of Warcraft.

 

How did blizzard afford to make their own engines for everything from WC3 to WoW to Diablo. Where did all that money come from?

If WC3 and Diablo were MMORPG, your argument would've made sense. there is a huge difference in development for online games and MMORPG.

Plus the fact Blizzard used the same engine for most of their games, justifies them to build their own game engine, licensing each game from another company would've been a huge cost. Starcraft was an upgrade Warcraft II, WoW used a modify WCIII engine, so on and so on. They really just created one engine in the end for all their games.

How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9942

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

1/24/12 9:00:26 AM#82


Originally posted by mithoss


Originally posted by Mellkor
 



*lengthy*

 
They don't need to support post dx9 libraries. A large number of consumers would not have the required hardware use them.
Thus, The golden mmo rule: Make it run on as many systems as possible to maximize potential customers, and therefore profits.
 


so basically, Bioware failed miserably at this rule. I have a radeon 5770 an a triple core 3 ghz with 4 gb ram. Guess what? the game runs like shit. What has Bioware to say about this performance problem? They say there are no problems, just old rigs. Biowares *nananana i cant hear you*-policy regarding criticism just baffles me.



I have a dual core e6750 with an HD5770. The game runs great so long as I cut off the grass and tree clutter. I can cut all the other features up to 'High'. This exact scenario where one machine runs a game fine, and another machine doesn't is endemic to the PC gaming industry. Hundreds of slightly different machines and slightly different chipsets, processors, video cards, etc. leads to quirks.

Overall though, the game does run fine on millions of machines. Good, even. So they haven't failed at this rule. They just haven't achieved perfection at this rule.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  wizyy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/05
Posts: 626

1/24/12 9:50:15 AM#83

They should have done it with CryEngine 2 or 3, like ArcheAge is doing it (with only $ 25 mil budget)

 

 

ArcheAge Online CBT4 Gameplay Collection Ultra Setting 1080p (by SteparuTV):

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL67288C785BA81366

  User Deleted
1/24/12 9:57:40 AM#84

I do not honestly believe that they had anyone capable of building an engine for the game.   If they had hired the people needed then it would have added to cost of development long term... and other things would likely have been cut from the game.

 

As others have said they probably should have gone with a different engine.   The problem is many of the issues with the game (in my opinion) have nothing to do with the Engine and wouldn't have been fixed by using a different engine.   Now if they could undue choices made...

 

I would say not only should they have gone with a different engine.. but some of the working systems they decided to change during the summer.. shouldn't have been changed.   (to me there is far more to it than an Engine choice but that's a wall of text I will pass on today).

  cscurlock

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/08
Posts: 38

1/24/12 10:08:46 AM#85

They used this engine because the tools to actually develop the world were easy to use and light years ahead of what was out there at that time and that was their primary concern.  The owner of the hero engine basically already stated this.   They saw the alpha engine tools and said I NEED THIS. 

Performance with 16 people on the screen was not even a thought in their mind at that time.   They figured they could just go in and fix the issue.  Unfortunately that is not how engines work.  You have to build them from the ground up to be able to handle large scale combat.  

  TJixlee

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/11
Posts: 174

1/24/12 10:10:59 AM#86
Originally posted by Souldrainer

Hero engine is trash.  I will never know why they used it.   Unreal 3 engine has potential and they used it for ME3... have no idea why they didn't just add a chat client to it and call that a day.  That engine is a beast!

 

 

amen brudduh

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1302

1/24/12 10:21:41 AM#87

I would assume that most of the people saying the engine is trash do not work in the field of Programming, or they are armchair programmers in their parents basements or dorm rooms.

I cant say the engine is trash, as I'm not a programmer. I do however know for a fact that this game had a ridiculous budget and I cannot believe for a second that a decision to use a shitty engine to save money was made. I would have to logically believe that their engineers knew the capability of the engine and decided it was the best fit for their product. I can say as a player, I'm having minimal to zero issues so far with the way the game plays.


For those of you alleging the engine is trash, please list some credentials so we can at least verify you know of which you speak. Reading an article about an engine doesn't make you a programmer....lol

  hercules

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/03
Posts: 4778

 
OP  1/24/12 10:31:01 AM#88
Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

I don't know anything about platforms, programming, developing mmorpgs, but here is an article I think some of you have read.

http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/21/heroengine-is-the-unsung-platform-behind-star-wars-the-old-republic/ 

One quote from the article, that I'm sure some of you will take issue with:

 

The Star Wars game proved that the HeroEngine works. ""

 

I would like to know what some professionals in this area think. If you actually understand the technology here, please break it down for those of us who don't understand the issues.

 

I post this as an observer. It's an interesting issue and it relates to whether the bugs (delays) will be fixable to a satisfactory degree or not. If not, it goes to the long-term survivability of this game.

 

yeah i saw that quote too.

  bfpiercelk

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 48

1/24/12 10:54:56 AM#89

Wouldn't have mattered what engine they used, you can't test the loading that you experience with a released MMO until you actually release that MMO. Nobody has on staff that many testers, and an open beta only tells you so much.

 

This is why every MMO has teething problems, and anybody who claims otherwise is either a liar or a fanboy lol.

  Wickedjelly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

1/24/12 11:12:58 AM#90

Honestly? I don't know enough about that type of stuff to say for sure.

What I will say is that when I heard they were going to sue the same engine as what was used in Warhammer I was stunned. Considering all the problems they had in that game that were supposedly because of the engine I was surprised anyone would consider using it again least for these types of games.

But many said they made a lot of changes to it so it wasn't really the same engine used in Warhammer after all. Gotta say considering how things are panning out I'm not so sure they were right.

Lot of deja vu to me far as problems that are arising.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2423

1/24/12 12:14:11 PM#91
Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Honestly? I don't know enough about that type of stuff to say for sure.

What I will say is that when I heard they were going to sue the same engine as what was used in Warhammer I was stunned. Considering all the problems they had in that game that were supposedly because of the engine I was surprised anyone would consider using it again least for these types of games.

But many said they made a lot of changes to it so it wasn't really the same engine used in Warhammer after all. Gotta say considering how things are panning out I'm not so sure they were right.

Lot of deja vu to me far as problems that are arising.

Warhammer used the Gamebryo engine, which is a totally different product.

 

Any technical comparison of Warhammer and SWTOR is totally irrelevant, they use DIFFERENT game engines.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6382

1/24/12 12:16:40 PM#92


Originally posted by xKingdomx

Bioware obtaining HERO engine wasn't the wrong move, using it on SWTOR first was.

Oh really? Do you mind to elaborate why?

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

1/24/12 12:17:38 PM#93
Originally posted by Praetalus

I would assume that most of the people saying the engine is trash do not work in the field of Programming, or they are armchair programmers in their parents basements or dorm rooms.

I cant say the engine is trash, as I'm not a programmer. I do however know for a fact that this game had a ridiculous budget and I cannot believe for a second that a decision to use a shitty engine to save money was made. I would have to logically believe that their engineers knew the capability of the engine and decided it was the best fit for their product. I can say as a player, I'm having minimal to zero issues so far with the way the game plays.

 


For those of you alleging the engine is trash, please list some credentials so we can at least verify you know of which you speak. Reading an article about an engine doesn't make you a programmer....lol

I'm a programmer. Even I can't say the engine is good or not lol. Unless you have hands on experience with something over a long period of time you can't really say anything for sure. And I suspect good game programmers are a rarer breed than most people realize. I wouldn't know. I'm neither a good programmer nor a game programmer lol.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  bfpiercelk

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 48

1/24/12 12:34:23 PM#94
Originally posted by NaughtyP
Originally posted by Praetalus

I would assume that most of the people saying the engine is trash do not work in the field of Programming, or they are armchair programmers in their parents basements or dorm rooms.

I cant say the engine is trash, as I'm not a programmer. I do however know for a fact that this game had a ridiculous budget and I cannot believe for a second that a decision to use a shitty engine to save money was made. I would have to logically believe that their engineers knew the capability of the engine and decided it was the best fit for their product. I can say as a player, I'm having minimal to zero issues so far with the way the game plays.

 


For those of you alleging the engine is trash, please list some credentials so we can at least verify you know of which you speak. Reading an article about an engine doesn't make you a programmer....lol

I'm a programmer. Even I can't say the engine is good or not lol. Unless you have hands on experience with something over a long period of time you can't really say anything for sure. And I suspect good game programmers are a rarer breed than most people realize. I wouldn't know. I'm neither a good programmer nor a game programmer lol.

 

"Good" programmers in general are a rarer breed than most people realize haha.

I don't even consider myself "good" at it but the number of people with far more experience who are far worse than myself was one of the staggering realizations when I was hired.

  spaceport

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/11
Posts: 417

1/24/12 12:40:18 PM#95

It seems like the Hero Engine has severe issues when there many players on the same place.

Or more than 10...

I drop to 10 fps on the fleet, with SWTORs terribad graphics and textures, there is no excuse for it, the game looks like crap and runs like crap.

 

Look at Tera...

I played K-Tera and the graphics are much much better than SWTOR, yet when i was part of 50 vs 50 PVP i had NO fps issues.

 

This isn't a "game vs game" crap or anything like that, just giving an example of a great looking game that runs better than SWTOR, even on huge pvp battles with 100+ players.


"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2709

1/24/12 12:41:44 PM#96

I voted yes, but my guess is they massively reworked the Hero engine anyway.

 

The number one priority for this game should have been fluid combat without delays.  No exceptions.

  Wickedjelly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

1/24/12 12:42:16 PM#97
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Warhammer used the Gamebryo engine, which is a totally different product.

 

Any technical comparison of Warhammer and SWTOR is totally irrelevant, they use DIFFERENT game engines.

My mistake then. For some reason I was under the impression both games used the same engine. Not sure where I got that idea from.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/24/12 1:07:51 PM#98
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

I voted yes, but my guess is they massively reworked the Hero engine anyway.

Yep.  And a lot of blame-it-on-the-engine at random isn't making much sense either.

Bio's got to eat the responsibility on this one, regardless of who wants to point fingers elsewhere.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  PukeBucket

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/11
Posts: 888

1/24/12 1:10:32 PM#99


Originally posted by hercules
 recall a long time ago some developer saying that each mmo is unique and needs its own engine built for it ,in response to why they abandoned the use of the unreal engine for that mmo.
Now we have the hero engine which is at best a 2005 engine which was meant for hero's journey but sold as a engine .it was originally designed for a fantasy mmo .
So how would you rate the hero engine in swtor which i feel is not performing well .lag when more then 30 people on the screen is horrible and  the game for what it looks seems to suck a lot of power.
what do you think?

Would making their own engine also include trying to make their own game rather than being just a wow-clone?

I mean it's obvious by their sell numbers it doesn't matter. They spent money on voice acting and saved on the engine. So yes, I'd like to have seen them make a unique game with a unique engine.

I don't think that was ever their goal.

I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7927

1/24/12 1:12:14 PM#100
Set tcpdelacktick to 3.and maybe disable shadow.(yes shadow are bugged in swtor(everywhere)and you should have smooyh game.most game maker don't know how shadow is supposed to work and good luck asking dev to go ask help at microsoft
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