Originally posted by Anubisan

In thread after thread in every forum on this site, I hear complaint after complaint about pretty much every game that is released. Every developer apparently does nothing right when designing games. They are also not due any time or leeway to remedy the problems in their game. It is either all or nothing.

Unless I am missing something, people on this site want a game like this:

1. Quantity of content on-par with games that have been out for nearly 10 years
2. 0 bugs
3. 0 lag
4. Pefectly balanced
5. AAA realistic graphics
6. Perfect performance (even on crap computers)
7. No unforseen problems with PvP
8. No other unforseen problems of any kind

Anything that falls short of these expectations is torn apart on the forums. Do people really believe these are realistic expectations? Especially from new games? It seems like expectations are really getting out of control these days. I have worked in the software industry for a long time and I have to tell you that it is virtually impossible to release something as complicated as an MMO with 0 problems...

can you name 2 of the 8 that TOR hit?

i cant...

1. nope. endgame content is limited to chilling at the fleet waiting for PvP queues or grinding another HM.
2. LMFAO... not even going to go into this one
3. see #2
4. "Perfect Balance" is hard to accomplish even for mature MMO's but at least a SMALL semblance of balance would be nice... IMHO
5. ...really? 2011 MMO... and no high res? ... really?
6. with the way the game LOOKS... it SHOULD run perfectly... even on crap rigs. ...ah but it dont. even high end rigs have problems with it.
7. there will be issues... but after 5+ years of development there shouldnt be that many.
8. see #7.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

 

Players all have different tastes. No MMO will ever satisfy EVERY player, which is why there will always be someone to complain about it. No MMO should ever TRY to satisfy every player because the aspects designed to attract group A will make group B not want to play, and vice versa. You're speaking as though you expect everyone to like the same thing, which, if you work in the industry, you should know will never happen.

The key to the statement in red above is that games need to actually be different in order for what you say to not be a huge problem and by and large MMOs are not different.

Originally posted by furidiam

 

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Originally posted by Kaerigan

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Originally posted by InFaVilla

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Originally posted by Kaerigan

Don't forget 3 faction PvP, since that automagically balances itself out.

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It is the solution to the inherent population-imbalance that plagues every 2-faction game. It automatically solves several imbalance issues, but not all issues.

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Many have said this but I've yet to understand why.

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When 1 side has a large advantage the other 2 sides can team up to even things out. Look at the success of DAOC (dark age of camelot). It is still considered one of the best pvp mmo's out.

Couldn't one faction grow too strong in that scenario? Like, faction A has 1000 players (or some other measurement of strength, I really don't know what type of game DAoC is unfortunately) while faction B and C only have 200 together?

Yes, that can happen. It was called the albion zerg in DAOC. But that is one of the great things about DAOC. If one side got so out balanced they were easy to see. Then you would attack assets by going around them.

I used to have lots of fun watching 16-24 players killing 50+ of the other side due to skill/team effort.

When 1 side gets too many people they become sitting ducks for true pvp'ers due to the zerg mentality.

Man I used to watch fights where 50 people are chasing 8 players to try and kill them and they would just keep getting strung out. Then the other faction would come hit the zerg from behind and clean house due to all the people that used up all there stamina chasing the first set of people.

Games used to take tactics.

Originally posted by 9reesracer9

"Y'know, I've noticed an infestation here. Everywhere I look, in fact. Nothing but undeveloped, unevolved, barely conscious pond scum, totally convinced of their own superiority as they scurry about their short, pointless lives."

                                                                                 Men in Black

agreed...pretty much sums up the sentiment of the mob posting such vitriol every day in these forums.

I have one for you in return...

"You aren't in traffic, you ARE traffic'

One mob attacks games, another mob attacks those that attack games... the mentallity is the same. Lets stop being so high and mighty superior.

Originally posted by Anubisan

In thread after thread in every forum on this site, I hear complaint after complaint about pretty much every game that is released. Every developer apparently does nothing right when designing games. They are also not due any time or leeway to remedy the problems in their game. It is either all or nothing.

Unless I am missing something, people on this site want a game like this:

1. Quantity of content on-par with games that have been out for nearly 10 years
2. 0 bugs
3. 0 lag
4. Pefectly balanced
5. AAA realistic graphics
6. Perfect performance (even on crap computers)
7. No unforseen problems with PvP
8. No other unforseen problems of any kind

Anything that falls short of these expectations is torn apart on the forums. Do people really believe these are realistic expectations? Especially from new games? It seems like expectations are really getting out of control these days. I have worked in the software industry for a long time and I have to tell you that it is virtually impossible to release something as complicated as an MMO with 0 problems...

Yes, complaining is what keeps evolution and pretty much everything going forward. If there is nothing to improve then you are stuck.

AND I DO NOT!!! talk about a lifestyle: You can live a very, very comfortable life with this attitude. We are talking about games.

Games are something "material", in small degrees even something artistic. There is always stuff to improve, because people have different oppinions. And again other people do like opinions of other people.

Keep an open mind, that's what's the fountain of youth.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by Anubisan

In thread after thread in every forum on this site, I hear complaint after complaint about pretty much every game that is released. Every developer apparently does nothing right when designing games. They are also not due any time or leeway to remedy the problems in their game. It is either all or nothing.

Unless I am missing something, people on this site want a game like this:

1. Quantity of content on-par with games that have been out for nearly 10 years
2. 0 bugs
3. 0 lag
4. Pefectly balanced
5. AAA realistic graphics
6. Perfect performance (even on crap computers)
7. No unforseen problems with PvP
8. No other unforseen problems of any kind

Anything that falls short of these expectations is torn apart on the forums. Do people really believe these are realistic expectations? Especially from new games? It seems like expectations are really getting out of control these days. I have worked in the software industry for a long time and I have to tell you that it is virtually impossible to release something as complicated as an MMO with 0 problems...

Yes, complaining is what keeps evolution and pretty much everything going forward. If there is nothing to improve then you are stuck.

AND I DO NOT!!! talk about a lifestyle: You can live a very, very comfortable life with this attitude. We are talking about games.

Games are something "material", in small degrees even something artistic. There is always stuff to improve, because people have different oppinions. And again other people do like opinions of other people. Keeps your mind fresh, being open for everything.

I do think that one should complain when they feel the desire to do so.

HOWEVER,

I dont think there is any evidence at all that our complaining has keep evolution going in the least.

Originally posted by Anubisan

In thread after thread in every forum on this site, I hear complaint after complaint about pretty much every game that is released. Every developer apparently does nothing right.... /snip

Plenty of folks recognise that plenty of things are done right. You are making absurd generalisations to make a fake point.

What do you propose? That we don't dicuss the bad things in games? The things that are broken? That we should all just post 'this game is fuckin' great!!!' about everything that is released and leave it at that?

That we stop all critical thought?

No.

I consider it a valid part of any forum like this to help shine a light on where games fail, as well as praise them when they suceed, if only to maybe help better games get made in the future.

I don't understand the mentality that staying quiet will help this floundering genre.

I think it is a fair expectation of customers to have a MMORPG that is at least as good as the ones 8 years ago. Maybe even move the genre forward, thanks to the 100's of sample MMORPGs already on the market, so you know what works.

What i don't expect is for devs to cater to the lowest common denominator and outright STEAL entire mechanics from other games, lazily slap them all together and sell it as a new game. Without even making the effort of making it all work as a fecking multiplayer game. The RPG-with-a-lobby is a proven failure in the past, but what did i expect from a "Best in World" RPG developer.

You may have guessed my example game, but i only highlight it as it is the highest profile.

There is a game in development called Salem, which probably has the worst graphics i have seen for many years, yet i would play it over anything out now, as it's not a sell-out theiving bastard of a game like all MMO releases in last few years.

What i want to know is, how the hell these companies get the investor funding, as i'm pretty sure it would involve the questions:

1. "So, what makes your game different?"
2. "What market do you hope to attract?"
3. "What features will make your game a success over the dozens of other MMOs in this genre?"

So i have come up with the theory that the suits treat this real-life scenario like a RPG:

Answers:
1. a) Nothing, but we don't have the talent to think of things ourselves.
b) We prefer to make it the same as the successful games, thereby making it successful
c) <lie> Everything man, look at this cinematic we made, the guy pulls a star destroyer out of the frickin' sky man!

2. a) To be honest, we are kinda winging it and hope hype sees us through.
b) Fans of the sci-fi genre, as we offer nothing new to the table, so hope our IP helps us attract customers.
c) <Lie> All of it, our market research team said we will get the exact same subscriber base as World of Warcraft, i saw the piechart myself.

3. a) We have added a bolt-on shoot 'em up to the game, has no connection to the rest of the game, but it's fun for a bit.
b) There are none, we prefer to play it safe. Like i said before, why fix what ain't broken. We can't get sued either for copying other games, as we changed the names of things.
c) <lie> *Laughs Arrogantly* Erm, i'm glad you asked, let me show this video clip, as you can see, it shows the NPCs actually talking and that's just the tip of the iceberg!

Then again, i have no right to complain, when i pay £40 for something, it's my responsibility to make it fun and if the promises/hype are not met, it's my stupid fault for trusting fellow humans.

Feel a bit better now :)

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't understand the mentality that staying quiet will help this floundering genre.

I don't understand the mentality that makes you believe you're helping.  Is it just hubris?

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't understand the mentality that staying quiet will help this floundering genre.

I don't understand the mentality that makes you believe you're helping.  Is it just hubris?

hehe you accusing anyone of hubris Ice.

Pot meet kettle.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't understand the mentality that staying quiet will help this floundering genre.

I don't understand the mentality that makes you believe you're helping.  Is it just hubris?

 

hehe you accusing anyone of hubris Ice.

Pot meet kettle.

You didn't answer the question.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Anubisan

In thread after thread in every forum on this site, I hear complaint after complaint about pretty much every game that is released. Every developer apparently does nothing right.... /snip

 

Plenty of folks recognise that plenty of things are done right. You are making absurd generalisations to make a fake point.

What do you propose? That we don't dicuss the bad things in games? The things that are broken? That we should all just post 'this game is fuckin' great!!!' about everything that is released and leave it at that?

That we stop all critical thought?

No.

I consider it a valid part of any forum like this to help shine a light on where games fail, as well as praise them when they suceed, if only to maybe help better games get made in the future.

I don't understand the mentality that staying quiet will help this floundering genre.

 

I am not saying that complaining about certain things is wrong. However, when people have totally unrealistic expectations, developers do not take their complaints seriously. Many people here do have valid criticisms, but they get drowned out by posts that are ridiculous. In fact, I would not be surprised if developers basically just ignore forums like this one because the expectations here are just impossible to meet.

If people actually want to have constructive conversations about games and hopefully get developers to try new things, they have to stop expecting perfectly polished, bug-free and completely content-complete MMOs at release. It just doesn't work that way.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't understand the mentality that staying quiet will help this floundering genre.

I don't understand the mentality that makes you believe you're helping.  Is it just hubris?

 hehe you accusing anyone of hubris Ice.

Pot meet kettle.

You didn't answer the question.

/sigh... whatever Ice... Same old predictable boring games in every thread. Back on ignore you go.

Originally posted by Anubisan

If people actually want to have constructive conversations about games and hopefully get developers to try new things, they have to stop expecting perfectly polished, bug-free and completely content-complete MMOs at release. It just doesn't work that way.

+1

We're talking about impossible expectations versus reality.

Originally posted by vesavius

/sigh... whatever Ice... Same old predictable boring games in every thread. Back on ignore you go.

 

Same old dodge the uncomfortable.

The OP pretty much summed up why I hate most people on this site.

Although Im for constructive critism and talking MMO-shop alot of people cant see the forest through the trees. Thier hatred blinds them from seeing the positiv e aspects of certain games or how a games failure or success will influence and better the MMO's in the future.

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Plenty of folks recognise that plenty of things are done right. You are making absurd generalisations to make a fake point.

What do you propose? That we don't dicuss the bad things in games? The things that are broken? That we should all just post 'this game is fuckin' great!!!' about everything that is released and leave it at that?

That we stop all critical thought?

No.

I consider it a valid part of any forum like this to help shine a light on where games fail, as well as praise them when they suceed, if only to maybe help better games get made in the future.

I don't understand the mentality that staying quiet will help this floundering genre.

 

I think the issue is the time spent talking about one compared to the other. 90% of the threads I read here seem to focus on the bad over and over. I rarely see anyone stating what they do like or what they'd like to see in place of this or that.

Stating what you don't like is one thing, giving it all focus over what you do really doesn't help in anyway to form a consensus on what would be better.

This is only my opinion but i don't think many care about that, they seemingly just like sensationalizing issues for the sake of viral marketing, word of mouth, and all that jazz. If there were more of what I highlighted at the beginning of this post, I wouldn't have such an opinion.

Originally posted by xDayx

from seeing the positiv e aspects of certain games or how a games failure or success will influence and better the MMO's in the future.

And that's an oft-repeated speculation without a shred of evidence to support it.  But it makes a good justification?

Originally posted by Anubisan

In thread after thread in every forum on this site, I hear complaint after complaint about pretty much every game that is released. Every developer apparently does nothing right when designing games. They are also not due any time or leeway to remedy the problems in their game. It is either all or nothing.

Unless I am missing something, people on this site want a game like this:

1. Quantity of content on-par with games that have been out for nearly 10 years
2. 0 bugs
3. 0 lag
4. Pefectly balanced
5. AAA realistic graphics
6. Perfect performance (even on crap computers)
7. No unforseen problems with PvP
8. No other unforseen problems of any kind

Anything that falls short of these expectations is torn apart on the forums. Do people really believe these are realistic expectations? Especially from new games? It seems like expectations are really getting out of control these days. I have worked in the software industry for a long time and I have to tell you that it is virtually impossible to release something as complicated as an MMO with 0 problems...

If the company is going to charge $15/month, why is Item 1 an unrealistic expectation?