The intense adherance to the single player aspect of this game coupled with the stagnation of the genre really begs the question, "Why is it even an MMO?"

Its pretty self evident by playing The Old Republic that "MMO" simply means that there are other players potentially playing, and you might potentially have some sample of content you may want to partake with them at some point as you will likely not be IMBA enough to solo it (this rule excludes Bounty Hunters).  However, the desire to interact with other players is awkwardly low for the lonely adventurer.  Perhaps they haven't found a guild that would represent their ideals, or perhaps they've no friends playing the game, but one thing is clear, its literally every man for himself when it comes to questing.

Now, typical new player interaction with other players should be expected out in the world, leveling, completing content, and "enjoying" the experience crafted for you.  These sorts of encounters and interactions are suggested to be "pleasant," "helpful," or at the very least, "interesting."  This is, unfortunately, not the nature of the beast.  Typical interactions between players out in the environment tends to be tense and cutthroat; excessively competitive.  Players who prefer to play solo gain a tunnel vision effect, simply ignoring all other people in their immediate surroundings.  These are the players who decline group invites from other players who are working on the same quests or are in the same areas on perhaps different stages of the quests.  Players who have grouped, duo or so in size, tend to stick to their own groupmates in terms of "MMO-etiquette" and all others be damned (NOT ALWAYS, but in several observed interactions, this was the case).  Regardless of whether a player is solo or in a group, however, mob tagging, kill stealing, gathering node stealing, and an overall air of animosity for other players runs rampant out in the world.  "They want what I want, so I need it first so I won't have to wait."  I have even observed several occasions, Empire and Republic, on several different planets and situations, players purposely kiting mobs into other players to kill those players, simply to cut down on the competition in an area for enemy spawns, loot, or mission objectives.  Waiting for other players to pull that stationary group of enemies so the offender can run in and snag the chest, mission objective, or gathering node.  I could go on.

Its unreasonable to expect players to enhance the experience of the game, however it is within the game's developer's power to control what experience players are capable of having.  Providing incentives to working together, reducing hassle of environmental objectives for players, et cetera.  Since The Old Republic took so many pages from WoW, perhaps they could implement a semi-phasing system eventually that provides individual players the objectives across an area, rather than having players becoming discouraged at other players ruining their experience.  Its certainly not difficult to run into other players in the lower to mid level areas and in abundance at high level areas, but the detriments of bad-player interactions at lower levels is exacerbated by the TINY funnel-esque areas, all of which are streamlined themeparks.

Any sort of resolution to this problem realistically is improbable as it is just the nature of the genre.  MMORPGs have re-educated players for content, difficulty, and what they should get away with as years have progressed.  Shortcuts were made here, there, and eventually it became part of the common MMO paradigm to assume that most players were going to average somewhere between tolerable and complete dick-holes.  Despite the amount of animosity I've seen over features (or the lack there-of) and select areas of the community, it does not stop this game from being fairly successful.  It just means that this game is no more a haven from WoW than Rift was for players seeking to leave the behemoth.

Having dug through The Old Republic's forums, both via devtracker, as well as typical "suggestions/bug reporting/feedback" forums, there are many players who at heart want this game to do well and have immense amounts of hope for its success... And there is about an equal amount who are inherently impatient, demanding, and abrasive.  Its communities like this that have drug down MMO's in the past, while there is the half that wants the best, there is the other half who complains louder and more frequently, who tosses off etiquette as something for the older generation of gamers, and who knows without a doubt their authority on everything [GAME].  Even having seen Bioware's enforcement of the ToS age policy, intending to "mature" the community, the way policies like that are being enforced is generating negative effects even amongst the hopeful players.  Bioware is certainly attempting to make steps to correct the game toward feedback (I've seen several positive "We're working on it!" posts) however they had also made promises many of the player base expected them to deliver, what some are claiming as false advertising.  "Open space/world exploration!" "Customizable [everything]" and so on are broad generalizations made during the ramping hype that players have now come to see is just not completely accurate.  Players take to heart what they are promised more often than not, and failure to meet some of those expectations results in players acting out in forum and in game.  I've heard "It doesnt matter, not like that mob isn't going to spawn in another hour," before, and that is just silly.  Epic, open environments where you really feel "heroic" starts to diminish pretty quickly when you have spent your last 40 minutes waiting on a respawn of your mission mob that you cleared all the enemies along the way up to, only to have some other person who needed to kill that one enemy, tags it, then denys the intial player's invites so they can at least both get credit for it.

As fine a single player storyline it is (with MMO "kill ten rats, pick up 8 piles of poo" standard quests sprinkled throughout), having the MMO option means there should at least be some incentive to want to play with other players.  In this genre though, thats quickly not becoming the case.  The community, despite itself, is what drags the game down and will make this just another mediocre MMO until it can innovate beyond the parameters that have dictated so many failures before it.

Any thoughts?

________________________

TL:DR; A lot of people in the world suck.

Swift kick in the teeth. :)

I felt like i was playing KTOR on my console system to be honest. Did not feel like mmo's i ahve enjoyed and played before. I did cancel, though i wish TOR no harm and hope it does well.

Just not a true epic mmo with all the features i would have hoped. Felt limited and confining. Themeparks are ok, this one was to hardcore themepark, no room to do what you wanted to do. I guess thats why i am a sandbox gamer, jsut wanted to play SW's again after SWG was shut down.

But coming from SWG to TOR was a huge, and i mean HUGE change. I guess thats why i didnt click with it. Until i saw a few hundred others feel the same way.

In time, TOR may be great or die as they all do.

Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok, I got about halfway through and your argument seems to be that it's not an mmo because people don't accept random invites and there is kill/node stealing.

I think those things are pretty freaking common in MMOs. I'm not sure I understand this.

You got halfway through? You're my idol!

Originally posted by Warmack

 

The intense adherance to the single player aspect of this game coupled with the stagnation of the genre really begs the question, "Why is it even an MMO?"

 

Its pretty self evident by playing The Old Republic that "MMO" simply means that there are other players potentially playing, and you might potentially have some sample of content you may want to partake with them at some point as you will likely not be IMBA enough to solo it (this rule excludes Bounty Hunters).  However, the desire to interact with other players is awkwardly low for the lonely adventurer.  Perhaps they haven't found a guild that would represent their ideals, or perhaps they've no friends playing the game, but one thing is clear, its literally every man for himself when it comes to questing.

Now, typical new player interaction with other players should be expected out in the world, leveling, completing content, and "enjoying" the experience crafted for you.  These sorts of encounters and interactions are suggested to be "pleasant," "helpful," or at the very least, "interesting."  This is, unfortunately, not the nature of the beast.  Typical interactions between players out in the environment tends to be tense and cutthroat; excessively competitive.  Players who prefer to play solo gain a tunnel vision effect, simply ignoring all other people in their immediate surroundings.  These are the players who decline group invites from other players who are working on the same quests or are in the same areas on perhaps different stages of the quests.  Players who have grouped, duo or so in size, tend to stick to their own groupmates in terms of "MMO-etiquette" and all others be damned (NOT ALWAYS, but in several observed interactions, this was the case).  Regardless of whether a player is solo or in a group, however, mob tagging, kill stealing, gathering node stealing, and an overall air of animosity for other players runs rampant out in the world.  "They want what I want, so I need it first so I won't have to wait."  I have even observed several occasions, Empire and Republic, on several different planets and situations, players purposely kiting mobs into other players to kill those players, simply to cut down on the competition in an area for enemy spawns, loot, or mission objectives.  Waiting for other players to pull that stationary group of enemies so the offender can run in and snag the chest, mission objective, or gathering node.  I could go on.

 

Its unreasonable to expect players to enhance the experience of the game, however it is within the game's developer's power to control what experience players are capable of having.  Providing incentives to working together, reducing hassle of environmental objectives for players, et cetera.  Since The Old Republic took so many pages from WoW, perhaps they could implement a semi-phasing system eventually that provides individual players the objectives across an area, rather than having players becoming discouraged at other players ruining their experience.  Its certainly not difficult to run into other players in the lower to mid level areas and in abundance at high level areas, but the detriments of bad-player interactions at lower levels is exacerbated by the TINY funnel-esque areas, all of which are streamlined themeparks.

 

Any sort of resolution to this problem realistically is improbable as it is just the nature of the genre.  MMORPGs have re-educated players for content, difficulty, and what they should get away with as years have progressed.  Shortcuts were made here, there, and eventually it became part of the common MMO paradigm to assume that most players were going to average somewhere between tolerable and complete dick-holes.  Despite the amount of animosity I've seen over features (or the lack there-of) and select areas of the community, it does not stop this game from being fairly successful.  It just means that this game is no more a haven from WoW than Rift was for players seeking to leave the behemoth.

 

Having dug through The Old Republic's forums, both via devtracker, as well as typical "suggestions/bug reporting/feedback" forums, there are many players who at heart want this game to do well and have immense amounts of hope for its success... And there is about an equal amount who are inherently impatient, demanding, and abrasive.  Its communities like this that have drug down MMO's in the past, while there is the half that wants the best, there is the other half who complains louder and more frequently, who tosses off etiquette as something for the older generation of gamers, and who knows without a doubt their authority on everything [GAME].  Even having seen Bioware's enforcement of the ToS age policy, intending to "mature" the community, the way policies like that are being enforced is generating negative effects even amongst the hopeful players.  Bioware is certainly attempting to make steps to correct the game toward feedback (I've seen several positive "We're working on it!" posts) however they had also made promises many of the player base expected them to deliver, what some are claiming as false advertising.  "Open space/world exploration!" "Customizable [everything]" and so on are broad generalizations made during the ramping hype that players have now come to see is just not completely accurate.  Players take to heart what they are promised more often than not, and failure to meet some of those expectations results in players acting out in forum and in game.  I've heard "It doesnt matter, not like that mob isn't going to spawn in another hour," before, and that is just silly.  Epic, open environments where you really feel "heroic" starts to diminish pretty quickly when you have spent your last 40 minutes waiting on a respawn of your mission mob that you cleared all the enemies along the way up to, only to have some other person who needed to kill that one enemy, tags it, then denys the intial player's invites so they can at least both get credit for it.

 

As fine a single player storyline it is (with MMO "kill ten rats, pick up 8 piles of poo" standard quests sprinkled throughout), having the MMO option means there should at least be some incentive to want to play with other players.  In this genre though, thats quickly not becoming the case.  The community, despite itself, is what drags the game down and will make this just another mediocre MMO until it can innovate beyond the parameters that have dictated so many failures before it.

 

Any thoughts?

 

________________________

TL:DR; A lot of people in the world suck.

Posts like yours are why I won't even be giving GW2 any chance.  Thanks.

Thats not fair, really do you know how annoying it is to get random party spams and guild spams when you pve? Thats what the little port towns are for or the cantinas. 

I clicked swift kick in the teeth because it was up there you could have said it about any game even AA and im waiting on that and gw2 like no tomorrow.

Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok, I got about halfway through and your argument seems to be that it's not an mmo because people don't accept random invites and there is kill/node stealing.

I think those things are pretty freaking common in MMOs. I'm not sure I understand this.

Plenty common, and not new by far, however the point of the discussion is more the fact the game is uncompromisingly anti-MMO in that not only are players intentionally making the game more of a chore for other players, but the fact the game itself is designed around a single player experience.  There is very little incentive whilst leveling to actually play with other people, and a large portion of people I've interviewed actually dislike having to play while other people are coming into their area.  The extra competition is unwanted, and that in itself undermines the entire point of playing an online game.  Why not play something that has no monthly subscription that is single player with easily just as much, if not deeper content, fewer things the populous can nit pick over and not have to worry that some other player will swoop in from the shadows and steal your womp rat?

The game undermines its own premise of being a multiplayer title, which in turn encourages players to establish that difference moreso.  This topic is more of a discussion or debate to what could be done to solve the problem the game establishes upon itself.

Originally posted by Warmack

Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok, I got about halfway through and your argument seems to be that it's not an mmo because people don't accept random invites and there is kill/node stealing.

I think those things are pretty freaking common in MMOs. I'm not sure I understand this.

Plenty common, and not new by far, however the point of the discussion is more the fact the game is uncompromisingly anti-MMO in that not only are players intentionally making the game more of a chore for other players, but the fact the game itself is designed around a single player experience.  There is very little incentive whilst leveling to actually play with other people, and a large portion of people I've interviewed actually dislike having to play while other people are coming into their area.  The extra competition is unwanted, and that in itself undermines the entire point of playing an online game.  Why not play something that has no monthly subscription that is single player with easily just as much, if not deeper content, fewer things the populous can nit pick over and not have to worry that some other player will swoop in from the shadows and steal your womp rat?

 

The game undermines its own premise of being a multiplayer title, which in turn encourages players to establish that difference moreso.  This topic is more of a discussion or debate to what could be done to solve the problem the game establishes upon itself.

Ohh, ok yeah your right on this thou, but the reason i bought it and played it was because of KOTOR yeah so the storyline was enough for me, and since im threw the one i wanted to finish i will not be resubbing until some new content has been released or until you can be a droid, cause droids own. Yeah thou all the kotor fans just bought it for the storyline.

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Warmack

 

-edit for length-

Posts like yours are why I won't even be giving GW2 any chance.  Thanks.

Guild Wars 2 is an entirely different basket that people have not gotten to openly try.  Once NDAs start lifting and that eventual* release date hits are when players can actually see how things will pan out.  From what I've seen of interviews, ArenaNet seems intent on making sure to fix the "common player problems*" like mob tagging, "kill ten rats" questing, and overall experience.  I have some degree of faith in them, having seen their product at gamescom, however we are still holding our breath for the final release (which likely means we'll all be asphyxiated by the time it finally hits shelves).

Back to the topic though, what would you suggest as a form of community you would be more attracted to in a video game? In an MMO?

Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok I can't quote now because I'm on my phone, but someone said there is no incentive for grouping.

Wrong. Social points (only rewarded for grouping), faster quest completion, bonus xp, better loot drops, ability to tackle heroic quest (with great rewards) very quickly and consistently, more xp, group conversations (which are fun), beig able to watch another classes story line,etc..

Oh and the most important incentive: having fun with your friends while playing a video game.

Guess what?

Game experience may vary.

I met a lot of cool friendly people throughout my game play experience, also I see people all the time.

Go into a situation expecting something, guess what you get what you are looking for.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Guess what?

Game experience may vary.

I met a lot of cool friendly people throughout my game play experience, also I see people all the time.

Go into a situation expecting something, guess what you get what you are looking for.

 

This guy sounds like an army recruiter after you already signed up. He is right, but you wish somone would have told you sooner.

Originally posted by Weretigar

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Guess what?

Game experience may vary.

I met a lot of cool friendly people throughout my game play experience, also I see people all the time.

Go into a situation expecting something, guess what you get what you are looking for.

 

This guy sounds like an army recruiter after you already signed up. He is right, but you wish somone would have told you sooner.

My point is that if you go looking for problems, you are going to find them...  Its a well known saying...

SWTOR is actually the next step in terms of how MMO's are evolving.

From a game design point of view, SWTOR is all about choices to the player.

Grouping provides a lot of benefits but it is totally viable for players to ignore that and solo it through.

The game experience is left in the player's hands and if players ignore grouping then the game doesn't care.

I'm always for more choices / playstyles so I am perfectly happy with this.

Originally posted by jpnz

SWTOR is actually the next step in terms of how MMO's are evolving.

From a game design point of view, SWTOR is all about choices to the player.

Grouping provides a lot of benefits but it is totally viable for players to ignore that and solo it through.

The game experience is left in the player's hands and if players ignore grouping then the game doesn't care.

I'm always for more choices / playstyles so I am perfectly happy with this.

Really? I mean REALLY?! Whow...

By "next step" I would say about 2 steps BACKWARDS. And this...."SWTOR is all about choices to the player" is pure rubbish. SW:TOR is all about limitations and railroading through a predefined path. If you think you have choices in SW:TOR you have absolutely NO IDEA about the possibilities outside of what is presented to you.

I am so utterly amazed at the low standards put forth here. If this game was  presented as KOTOR3 then I would say "Great! Fun game", but to present it as an MMO and even on top of that drum it up like "innovation" or "the next generation MMO" is pure garbage!

As a singleplayer game, KOTOR3...sorry SW:TOR, is a fun game. But as an MMO it is a completely lackluster and mediocre title.

Originally posted by BloodyViking

Originally posted by jpnz

SWTOR is actually the next step in terms of how MMO's are evolving.

From a game design point of view, SWTOR is all about choices to the player.

Grouping provides a lot of benefits but it is totally viable for players to ignore that and solo it through.

The game experience is left in the player's hands and if players ignore grouping then the game doesn't care.

I'm always for more choices / playstyles so I am perfectly happy with this.

Really? I mean REALLY?! Whow...

By "next step" I would say about 2 steps BACKWARDS. And this...."SWTOR is all about choices to the player" is pure rubbish. SW:TOR is all about limitations and railroading through a predefined path. If you think you have choices in SW:TOR you have absolutely NO IDEA about the possibilities outside of what is presented to you.

I am so utterly amazed at the low standards put forth here. If this game was  presented as KOTOR3 then I would say "Great! Fun game", but to present it as an MMO and even on top of that drum it up like "innovation" or "the next generation MMO" is pure garbage!

As a singleplayer game, KOTOR3...sorry SW:TOR, is a fun game. But as an MMO it is a completely lackluster and mediocre title.

From a game design level, the game offers choices on how the player chooses to advance its character.

It can be done through PVP/PVE and Solo/Group.

You are incentivized for grouping but the game doesn't force you to and doesn't mind how you advance at all.

Is it the 'Star Trek Holo-deck virtual reality'? No. Sorry, this isn't it.

I think the fact you are defining what an MMO is to you and then forcing that definition to others is causing this disconnect.

I have my own definition on what an MMO is but have no issue with what others define it as.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by BloodyViking

Originally posted by jpnz

SWTOR is actually the next step in terms of how MMO's are evolving.

From a game design point of view, SWTOR is all about choices to the player.

Grouping provides a lot of benefits but it is totally viable for players to ignore that and solo it through.

The game experience is left in the player's hands and if players ignore grouping then the game doesn't care.

I'm always for more choices / playstyles so I am perfectly happy with this.

Really? I mean REALLY?! Whow...

By "next step" I would say about 2 steps BACKWARDS. And this...."SWTOR is all about choices to the player" is pure rubbish. SW:TOR is all about limitations and railroading through a predefined path. If you think you have choices in SW:TOR you have absolutely NO IDEA about the possibilities outside of what is presented to you.

I am so utterly amazed at the low standards put forth here. If this game was  presented as KOTOR3 then I would say "Great! Fun game", but to present it as an MMO and even on top of that drum it up like "innovation" or "the next generation MMO" is pure garbage!

As a singleplayer game, KOTOR3...sorry SW:TOR, is a fun game. But as an MMO it is a completely lackluster and mediocre title.

From a game design level, the game offers choices on how the player chooses to advance its character.

It can be done through PVP/PVE and Solo/Group.

You are incentivized for grouping but the game doesn't force you to and doesn't mind how you advance at all.

 

Is it the 'Star Trek Holo-deck virtual reality'? No. Sorry, this isn't it.

 

I think the fact you are defining what an MMO is to you and then forcing that definition to others is causing this disconnect.

I have my own definition on what an MMO is but have no issue with what others define it as.

I have absolutely no issue with you liking this type of MMO's. What I DO have a problem with is the lies and deception presented as truths.

- Innovation? Lie

- Next generation (implying an overall better game standard than previous generation)? Lie

- Choices in character advancement (as if this game is better than any other MMO in that regard in some way)? Lie

Originally posted by BloodyViking

Originally posted by jpnz

 

From a game design level, the game offers choices on how the player chooses to advance its character.

It can be done through PVP/PVE and Solo/Group.

You are incentivized for grouping but the game doesn't force you to and doesn't mind how you advance at all.

 

Is it the 'Star Trek Holo-deck virtual reality'? No. Sorry, this isn't it.

 

I think the fact you are defining what an MMO is to you and then forcing that definition to others is causing this disconnect.

I have my own definition on what an MMO is but have no issue with what others define it as.

I have absolutely no issue with you liking this type of MMO's. What I DO have a problem with is the lies and deception presented as truths.

- Innovation? Lie

- Next generation (implying an overall better game standard than previous generation)? Lie

- Choices in character advancement (as if this game is better than any other MMO in that regard in some way)? Lie

The game actually innovates at the game design level and not in the mechanical which is why it isn't very visible.

To over-generalize, this is the first MMO that puts emphasis on the 'story' aspect of the game.

It is actually quite simple and easy to miss but entirely reasonable if you have been making RPG the past 20 years.

The Witcher/ Neverwinter/ Dragon Age/ World of Warcraft

Those 4 are all 'go to XYZ' -> 'Talk to NPC' -> 'Go and Press Butan!'

Mechanically they are fundamentally the same but I loved to do that in Dragon Age, why the heck didn't I want to do that in WoW?

I feel slightly responsible for this type of behaviour since I have 2 kids and another on the way. My gaming time is limited so I tend to play games like this which are soloable.  I would love to group but just can't commit.

However I am always helping out in chat and answering questions etc.  I have had some pretty decent discussions with people in this MMO but there is a difference from playing on the PvE server vs PvP.  to be expected though.