Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Originally posted by nariusseldon 

"fitting the big picture and being meaningful"  is just wishy washy vague talk.

 

Well, would you ever use a otherwise good crafting system in a game, if everything could be bought from NPCs for cheap?

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

 LOL :D

Well if they did a market research on this site they clearly did not know their target group at all.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

This is quite possibly the best post i have ever seen on this site.

Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

I was wondering how game companies who obviously have put a lot of time and money into a game, can so miss the mark on what the gaming community wants.  I'm not talking about nitpicking every little thing a game does right/wrong, becausee those are always up for debate.  Instead I'm wondering at a more Macro level.  Star Trek Online and Champions online come to mind.  Its obvious that a lot of money was spent on them.  The quality shows.  However, they are so far off the mark on what players wanted, that they just fail to attract the masses.  I know that politicians and others do a lot of market surveys and focus groups to help them make decisions.  Do game companies not do this?  Just cruious.

This topic has been discussed for years now. Literally the past 8 years it has been like this...

There are many reasons i think, but mainly, it is Business reasons, getting Funding for a game is not easy if you cannot convince the investors, and the investors have tables and data that they pull out on you which show the numbers of what "most" players will like and will not like.

When all the investors use the same Criteria...it is obvious that all games that require funding will end up being the same game with same gameplay just with different story, models and colors.

Independent Innovation is not an option for most Dev teams and Designers.

---

Originally posted by Banquetto

---

Originally posted by Onomas
Polls, forums, etc. Just look at some of the polls here, and youwill see what so many would like. But they settle for dumbed down games and just go along with it.

---

If you want absolutely surefire guaranteed way to "get it so wrong" and be "so far off the mark on what players wanted", here it is:

Base your game on what people on the mmorpg.com forums demand.

---

It's money! The cause of and solution to any game's problems.

Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

I was wondering how game companies who obviously have put a lot of time and money into a game, can so miss the mark on what the gaming community wants.  I'm not talking about nitpicking every little thing a game does right/wrong, becausee those are always up for debate.  Instead I'm wondering at a more Macro level.  Star Trek Online and Champions online come to mind.  Its obvious that a lot of money was spent on them.  The quality shows.  However, they are so far off the mark on what players wanted, that they just fail to attract the masses.  I know that politicians and others do a lot of market surveys and focus groups to help them make decisions.  Do game companies not do this?  Just cruious.

Seriously i think they listen to sites such as this one much to often. 

Have a vision i say and see it throught!   Don't try and match the vision to alll the flock in these places

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

---

Originally posted by Onomas

I personaly feel many dont even know what a MMORPG should be or what it use to be like.

---

Let me guess... You are the one who knows what MMORPG should be or what it use to be like because your opinion is superior to others for some random arbitrary reasons....

---

Originally posted by Loke666

I am pretty sure people didn´t want STO & CO. The fact that both have gone F2P and that most players left after the first month told us that.
Besides that I amnot sure people do even know what they want in a new game. Heck, I don´t exactly know what I want before I see it either, I just know that I want something that is fun and different.

---

So you do not even know what you want yourself, yet you are sure what others do not want... Nice.

---

Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

I'll tell you the truth. I'm not sure what 'the community' wants.

---

And once again...you do not know what players want, yet you know that companies are not delivering it? I guess you have an access to analysis you accuse STO and CO devs should have made. Do you mind to share some of the content of that research?

As for some more of your baseless assumptions:

The fanatics are pretty much one sided. Themepark gamers do not care about sandbox games but it does not work the same other way round. Sandbox fanatics are truly threatened by any themepark game released as it means their own type of game is being further more neglected and their voices not heard.

The troll on these boards are fair example, especially SWTOR boards these days...

Originally posted by Gdemami

The fanatics are pretty much one sided. Themepark gamers do not care about sandbox games but it does not work the same other way round. Sandbox fanatics are truly threatened by any themepark game released as it means their own type of game is being further more neglected and their voices not heard.

Even if we somehow accept , that this is true (i see a similar number of people arguing both ways), can you really blame them (us) ?

Themepark or Sandbox exclusive games are nearly nonexistent these days, even if we would actually be able to agree on the definitions, and if a game attracts some people of the sandbox crowd (if there is such a thing), sandbox aspects are the first thing to go in the long run, and the number of angry people increases again...

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Gdemami

The fanatics are pretty much one sided. Themepark gamers do not care about sandbox games but it does not work the same other way round. Sandbox fanatics are truly threatened by any themepark game released as it means their own type of game is being further more neglected and their voices not heard.

Even if we somehow accept , that this is true (i see a similar number of people arguing both ways), can you really blame them (us) ?

Themepark or Sandbox exclusive games are nearly nonexistent these days, even if we would actually be able to agree on the definitions, and if a game attracts some people of the sandbox crowd (if there is such a thing), sandbox aspects are the first thing to go in the long run, and the number of angry people increases again...

I think I have to stick with my assessment, although I did mean for these to go both ways.  I wasn't trying to make one side or the other seem 'more' fanatical.   Like all generalizations, it doesn't fit everyone or even most people.  Its just one liitle fish in this MMO pond.

The question really becomes what should be an MMO game companies strategy to get the good intel they need.  I'm hesitant to say 'listen to gamers.'  I agree they have to go to gamers, but what I mean by my hesitation is that if you listen to every swinging richard, a game would never get made.   You would have to establish some criteria on a focus group that you could get good solid info from.

Apart from what i posted earlier:

Todays games are all about fighting....fight to get gear, fight to get money, fight to get levels, fight to get titles, fight fight fight.

I am 100% sure there are a lot, and i mean really A LOT, that love to craft all day. Todays kids shiver and call it mind numbing boredom, but it's a large group, larger than is recognized. No WOW or RIFt crafting, but back to the days of Daoc, EQ or Vanguard.

Same goes for housing (not some portal to a remore housing location, brrrrrr) but actually an integrated part of the actual world .

Give us something else to do than fighting (grinding) all day long. Make it an integrated part of the game, not some after thought....

Yes, that requires you, the developpers, to actually think and make something original...well, that's what i pay 15 bucks a month for, for something original that works and is fun. If i wanted to play wow, rift, or any clone look alike, newsflash: i wouldn't buy YOUR game.

companies want their game to be as successful as WoW , and they fail miserably, they better wait for Titan, maybe by then they will learn something out of Blizzard lol

So making surveys, what ? Ok, let's make a survey, why don't we "survey" ... this thread !

How hard can this be ? Any volunteers ? OP ? Anyone ?

75 replies till now on the OP's original simple question: "how come companies get it so wrong"

lets see, answers:

• companies don't give a damn, they count costs and risk assesment,  they are only interested in money.
• the customers are unable to express themselves enough to tell what they need
• customers (  players ) have "chaotic" diverse ideas on what their "needs" are
• it is impossible to survey
• the surveys and/or the conlusions give the wrong impression(s).
• surveys are redundant or unnecessary, companies should make whatever they fancy
• companies should not follow surveys since they give what costumers don't want.
• games in the past were better, they should never have changed
• customers only get what they don't want
• companies are making products for another type of costumer
• The company are ( too ) concerned about their image and reputation

Because mmo are huge projects, they need a lot of brain, experience and cohesion.
 
Also mmo can't be done like this, as the OP seam to think, you need some real brains with some experience that took years to think about their project before even gathering a team. Its not just "lets gather some data from the net and forum, shake it baby and throw the dice", that will never work for mmo because it need more cohesion than any other project.
 
Look at some of the last mmo, don't need to point anything. They took some really great elements, those elements are even better than the "gathered data from the net" the OP talk about, those are hard data coming from real commercial success. Well they took those, shake it baby and roll in. And you see what we got? Some "not that good" game. This just don't work like this, it's a bit like cooking (ye i like cooking). Well everyone love salt, meat and bread, but with those some people will make shitty food they'll barely be able to eat, other will have a good dish and will ask more of it.

Originally posted by Manarix

Here is what i think.

I think developpers listen WAY TOO MUCH to their so called customers.

And the endresult is a bland product, that does not excell in anything, while trying to cater to as many as possible.

Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot were games that were made by people with a vision. They made the game like they wanted it to be, games they wanted to play themselves and have have a good time wasting time with. If you didn't like it, well too bad, you didn't play...simple as that. And to be honest, both games went downhill when the developpers started to "listen" to what the players wanted, most times fragmented ideas of people that didn't like a, b or c.

 

 

lol

UO got the AOS (Age of Shit) patch as the lead developer thought it woule be cool to implement Diablo 2 features into UO.

No one really asked for that stuff.. the developer decided it was the way to go ....

As for Trammel Sunswords said it would not be a mirror but as downloads were hard those days they still mirrored it :P

Ah yes, developers ... the animal that thinks they know it all, just to fail at reality :P

Originally posted by Manarix

Here is what i think.

I think developpers listen WAY TOO MUCH to their so called customers.

And the endresult is a bland product, that does not excell in anything, while trying to cater to as many as possible.

Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot were games that were made by people with a vision. They made the game like they wanted it to be, games they wanted to play themselves and have have a good time wasting time with. If you didn't like it, well too bad, you didn't play...simple as that. And to be honest, both games went downhill when the developpers started to "listen" to what the players wanted, most times fragmented ideas of people that didn't like a, b or c.

 

 

Yes and no.

YES - games and especially mmropg's need VISIONARIES not just good workers that will copy & paste some ideas.

NO - It is not "we should carefully listen to consumers and do what they tell" vs. "we should do only what WE think is best".

Real mastery is knowing WHICH community ideas should be listened to AND having balls to shun off some community ideas as well.

Listening to everything / almost everything = 'enslaving' game to community and spiral downwards + losing core game concepts sooner or later

Not listening at all / almost at all = sooner or later failing hard like SWG failed with NGE.

---

Originally posted by obii

---

Originally posted by Manarix

Here is what i think.
I think developpers listen WAY TOO MUCH to their so called customers.
And the endresult is a bland product, that does not excell in anything, while trying to cater to as many as possible.
Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot were games that were made by people with a vision. They made the game like they wanted it to be, games they wanted to play themselves and have have a good time wasting time with. If you didn't like it, well too bad, you didn't play...simple as that. And to be honest, both games went downhill when the developpers started to "listen" to what the players wanted, most times fragmented ideas of people that didn't like a, b or c.
 
 

---

lol
UO got the AOS (Age of Shit) patch as the lead developer thought it woule be cool to implement Diablo 2 features into UO.
No one really asked for that stuff.. the developer decided it was the way to go ....
As for Trammel Sunswords said it would not be a mirror but as downloads were hard those days they still mirrored it :P
 
Ah yes, developers ... the animal that thinks they know it all, just to fail at reality :P

---

Uo like SWG was literally massacred for commercial reasons. They saw other games getting more succeed so they wanted to do the same. So silly, especially for mmos. But i guess its a common behavior among game developers as the history shows us.