Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Creslin321

 Not really...

My problem is when people try to argue in binary terms.  It's like they think that either a game is completely original, or it is a clone, and there is no in-between.  When in reality, every game falls in-between these extremes.

Every single game to come out since Pong, has in some way built on the concepts of previous games.  Now if they go to far, and essentially just copy another game, then that's not good.  For example, if a game came out called "Ping" that played exactly like Pong, then that's not acceptable.

The key is that a good game should seek to differentiate itself from its predecessors, while still being inspired by their success and failures.

Seriously.

Think of any aspect of GW2 (or any game), and you can probably do a good job of tracing back what brought it about.  Either it was something someone liked about another game but want to use (and hopefully improve upon), or it was something they didn't like and wanted to go in a different direction from.

One thing to remember is that ArenaNet isn't trying to innovate for innovation's sake, they're trying to make the best game they can.  Things like the holy trinity worked really well for a long time and are still in use today.  It's not that it's a bad system, it's just that it's been used so much that a lot of people are looking for something different.  Look at the Downed State.  They've said it was inspired by Borderlands.  It doesn't matter that someone did something very similar before and that ArenaNet only tweaked it if it makes the game better.  Now, if every major MMO for the past 7 years had a Downed State, we'd be looking for them to do something else instead.

 

I swear, it's not just binary whether it's completely innovative or not at all.  Everything seems to be.  Everyone's a fanboy or a hater.  The game is the 2nd coming or its crap.

Also, it either kills WoW or it's a failgame.

 Lets not forget it's either P2P or P2W  there is no B2P model, it's all smoke and mirrors.

I cant tell if your beign sarcastic or not 

Maybe having a purple laced wedding gown or high heels that he gets from the cash shop makes him feel invincible.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by cali59

I swear, it's not just binary whether it's completely innovative or not at all.  Everything seems to be.  Everyone's a fanboy or a hater.  The game is the 2nd coming or its crap.

Also, it either kills WoW or it's a failgame.

 Lets not forget it's either P2P or P2W  there is no B2P model, it's all smoke and mirrors.

I cant tell if your beign sarcastic or not 

Look at the resposes I was quoting and you'll see i wsa rolling with it. Definately sarcasm.

Originally posted by Bunks

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Creslin321

...

.

Also, it either kills WoW or it's a failgame.

 Lets not forget it's either P2P or P2W  there is no B2P model, it's all smoke and mirrors.

I cant tell if your beign sarcastic or not 

Maybe having a purple laced wedding gown or high heels that he gets from the cash shop makes him feel invincible.

 You know...now that you say that, I am changing my mind on GW2's CS...I think it is P2W. 

That outfit you describe is just full of WIN.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Warband

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Creslin321

 You mean like just about every single invention in the course of human history?  I believe it was Isaac Newton who said:

If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants.

The quote refers to the fact that all of Newton's accomplishments were made possible by the discoveries that went before him.  This is the same with games.  A game should seek to build upon and improve its predecessors.  There is nothing wrong with this.  In fact, if you don't do this, then there may be something wrong.

Apparently, for many on this site, the MMORPG genre is excluded from this universaly accepted rule.

 

That's not really how it works. noone cares about "innovations" in the scientific concept science itself is simply a combined mass of human knowledge, however if someone were to read a book many a person would be able to see certain cliches seen as negative atributes to said book. Science by it's nature is objective there's supposed to be no personal bias or opinions based on feelings involved, entertainment however isn't. There's no right or wrong way to go about it, there is however boring and stale ways (ones done a thousand times) and fresh and interesting ways (types which are generally considered to be innovative).

 

So using that quote as method to support your arguement completely misses the point.

 Not really...

My problem is when people try to argue in binary terms.  It's like they think that either a game is completely original, or it is a clone, and there is no in-between.  When in reality, every game falls in-between these extremes.

Every single game to come out since Pong, has in some way built on the concepts of previous games.  Now if they go to far, and essentially just copy another game, then that's not good.  For example, if a game came out called "Ping" that played exactly like Pong, then that's not acceptable.

The key is that a good game should seek to differentiate itself from its predecessors, while still being inspired by their success and failures.

For an example of a game typically considered "innovative" look at Portal.  Portal is considered to be a really great original game.  But the reality is that Portal relies upon all of these pre-existing game concepts to even exist:

1.  FPS interface and movement scheme (Wolfenstein 3D).

2.  Puzzle game elements involving the movement of objects like blocks.

3.  In-game cinematics utilizing the game engine.

Portal built upon all these concepts, but then it added its unique take on puzzle solving to differentiate itself and offer a new experience, and this was successful.

But the point is that Portal still relied on the accomplishments of its predecessors...just like any other game.

Your not getting it. Fresh doesn't mean entire new. Using my book example again while certain cliches in books are seen as bad, simply breaking them for the sake of breaking is not seen as good either if the end result is worse than original e.g killing off all the characters for no real reason. They are always constrained within certain limitations and true innovation is feeling fresh operative word being feeling, while being in those limitations. There is of course no empirical measurement of such concept and is completely subjective, but typical something more fresh is more respected and lauded than tried and test method that is not but a simple refinement which can also be very popular. Why because it's harder, leads to newer directions and is better for whatever's in the subject, due to a fresh take to compare and challenge the old.

Originally posted by Vallista

 

That is my problem Quizzical, I'm sick of mmo making pve and pvp separate games altogether.  That is why I'm saying it feel like fools gold. 

I skimmed through the whole thread but im just now coming into it. I would like to take a crack at this.

WvWvW PvP is a combination of PvP and PvE. In various interviews (which I WILL dig up if you insist upon it) they descrbe the enviroment and some of the mechanics. 

There are various resources that must be gathered and npc gaurded locations that must be taken. Also DE will happen within WvWvW that will involve npc's. 

Captured locations on the map can cause various things to happen... like spawning trolls to attack the enemies base wave after wave.... forcing the enemy to fight off enemy NPC's as well as players.

So in essence gw2 is kinda three games in one... 

Pure PvErs will have DE's and Dungeons.

Pure PvPers have the arena type structured PvP

and those like yourself... who like a mix... have WvWvW

Originally posted by Vallista

Originally posted by IPolygon

Originally posted by Jonnas13

Originally posted by IPolygon

WoW is one of the most innovative MMOs of that time. Yep. But that's almost 7 years ago.

I am not saying GW2 is the second coming to anything, but denying the fact, that GW2 is improving a lot of things for a lot of people is ignorant at best.

Also, I've actually played the game.

that is my point, GW2 might improve on what is already out there.  That all.  

But that's how innovation goes.

If it wasn't for constant improvements of what already exists... we'd be beating on rocks, in caves.

Realistically, there's nothing new out there. Everything can be linked to something that already existed; such is the case with EQ and WoW, for example.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

Originally posted by Vallista

   When it comes to the PvE and PvP content, I've understood that they are two different entities.  Meaning players can choose to pvp, pve or both mainly.  Since there is not connection between the three styles of play, to me this is not different than other mmo's that came before it like WoW, Rift, Swtor.............. should I keep going?  Second, on the pvp side of things, GW2 battleground is really no different from the other titles I mention before.  I mean really?  So instead of little instances where small groups can battle each other, GW2 will have W v W v W<<<

You're implicitly assuming that PVE is the same in every game, and also that PVP is the same in every game.  And that's completely ridiculous.  The attraction of GW2 is that it's PVE will be very different from that of WoW, Rift, SWTOR, etc. (no aggro system, no dedicated tanks or healers, everyone can rez, ten skills accessible at a time, etc.) and that its PVP will be very different from those games (e.g., at least some forms of it will be balanced).

Originally posted by ZDPhoenix

Originally posted by Vallista

Originally posted by IPolygon

Originally posted by Jonnas13

Originally posted by IPolygon

WoW is one of the most innovative MMOs of that time. Yep. But that's almost 7 years ago.

I am not saying GW2 is the second coming to anything, but denying the fact, that GW2 is improving a lot of things for a lot of people is ignorant at best.

Also, I've actually played the game.

that is my point, GW2 might improve on what is already out there.  That all.  

But that's how innovation goes.

If it wasn't for constant improvements of what already exists... we'd be beating on rocks, in caves.

Realistically, there's nothing new out there. Everything can be linked to something that already existed; such is the case with EQ and WoW, for example.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

Hey put Carl Sagan's name in there if you are going to quote him.

Originally posted by Vallista

I'm starting to think GW2 is fools gold.  While I'm not bashing the game or saying it won't be successful, I'm saying the mor I read about this game, the more I don't like.  Don't get me wrong, there are things I do like in the game.  My overall feeling is that this game doesn't feel like an mmo, more like swtor (sorry) single player game with friends optional.  I understand GW2 is a pve game with PvP features, that is fine.  However, I can saying I'm not gonna drink the kool aid on this title.  Also after finding out that there won't be raid style feature in this game, while I'm not really gonna like that long term.  Am I wrong for feeling this way?

I would venture to say that the reason you don't think it has an MMO feel is the lack to coehsion between players.  Like as it stands it's like everyone is in there own lil grp n what not.  I think thats understandable.

However I think the fact that events scale in difficulty alone will require people to work together if they want to complete the event which I would say that in many MMOs and the overall trend is people can be oblivous to other players and not even lend a helping hand to someone in trouble... or in other words complete asshats.

As for guilds I think for once a company has it spot on.  By removing raids in the traditional sense and the option to have multiple guilds you can be a member of ANet takes guilds in an MMO in a whole new perspective and they have said that guilds should be for the social aspect of gaming.  Cause lets face facts, people typiclaly join X guild because X guild needs X class or roll that you bring to the table.

I too wonder the longevity of the game without raids as it has been a well used formula.  However they are offering challenges, and true challenges imo as gear progression won't trivilize content, via dungeons which will fulfill those who want those hard PvE encounters.  People seem to equate that any challenging content must be done with grps of raid size (10 or more typically which BW decided on 8 being their magic number)and will dismiss challenges of just reg party size.

There is still much unknown info on how DEs will be.  If done right they could exactly accomplish the same thing that raids accomplish in other MMOs as far as a gaming experiance.  They might have special DEs that are ramped up on steroids so to speak as a form of a challenging special DE event that players must work together through various other DEs to lead up that special DE.

In short I think you looking at the game in a limited scope. 

Originally posted by BadSpock

Thanks!

No I mean that in WAR PQ's or in Rift people would group up into public groups, not say a word to anyone, do their killing until they had the rewards they needed wanted, then drop groups without a word.

So not worried about AFK folk but worried more about "ends > means" folks.

Everything in MMOs these days and the majority of MMO players only do what they do in games because of rewards.

Sad, but true.

I mean, in TOR the other day, I was looking to kill an Elite level open world mob for a bonus quest, other guy comes up, invites me to group, we kill the Elite. He drops group. Not a word. Not an emote, nothing.

I was saying "hi" and "thank you" and emotes etc.

Hello typical MMO player. The type of player that is going to really take away from how good GW2 might be.

It's because everything there is to do in modern MMOs is to gain rewards. People need a reason to socialize otherwise it's a waste of time. "Hi" and "thanks" is the lowest possible level of communication in game so no wonder why people are skipping that part as well after 50 or so random raiding groups.

If you wonder why players don't socialize more often then you haven't played a MMO with well implemented social tools and don't understand the importance of player cities, player driven economy, personal shops, housing etc. It will all just sound trivial to you.

He didn't wonder why, he states he believes low social activity in a game is a result from the reward focussed play. Prophecies had plenty of grouping and interaction without player housing and all that stuff, but between then and Factions something changed and people were suddenly going after the reqrds rather then simply playing the game together.

Originally posted by Bunks

Originally posted by ZDPhoenix

Originally posted by Vallista

Originally posted by IPolygon

Originally posted by Jonnas13

Originally posted by IPolygon

WoW is one of the most innovative MMOs of that time. Yep. But that's almost 7 years ago.

I am not saying GW2 is the second coming to anything, but denying the fact, that GW2 is improving a lot of things for a lot of people is ignorant at best.

Also, I've actually played the game.

that is my point, GW2 might improve on what is already out there.  That all.  

But that's how innovation goes.

If it wasn't for constant improvements of what already exists... we'd be beating on rocks, in caves.

Realistically, there's nothing new out there. Everything can be linked to something that already existed; such is the case with EQ and WoW, for example.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

Hey put Carl Sagan's name in there if you are going to quote him.

OH NOES! YOU GONNA SOPA ME, BRO!? lol :P

I assumed it's a famous enough quote that it was a given.

Guess not, apparently.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Thanks!

No I mean that in WAR PQ's or in Rift people would group up into public groups, not say a word to anyone, do their killing until they had the rewards they needed wanted, then drop groups without a word.

So not worried about AFK folk but worried more about "ends > means" folks.

Everything in MMOs these days and the majority of MMO players only do what they do in games because of rewards.

Sad, but true.

I mean, in TOR the other day, I was looking to kill an Elite level open world mob for a bonus quest, other guy comes up, invites me to group, we kill the Elite. He drops group. Not a word. Not an emote, nothing.

I was saying "hi" and "thank you" and emotes etc.

Hello typical MMO player. The type of player that is going to really take away from how good GW2 might be.

I played both WarHammer online and Rift for awhile, so I know the situation you're describing here.

I think one problem with Rift, and SW:ToR are that the Rifts, or the Elite open world content, are just distractions to the main PvE content of the game, which are the traditional quests.  Often I would see a large Rift nearby, run over, start firing damage into the waves of mobs, and when it was done and the Rift popped away, then the "event" was over and we had no more reason to stick around, or together.  Same with the public quests in WarHammer.  It was a simple, static area where an event was on a timer.  It would go off, we would all kill the waves of mobs or whatever, and when it was completed then it was done and wouldn't spawn again for awhile.  Just like closing a rift, the event esentially disappears and won't be back anytime soon, so the ad-hoc group that formed to defeat the "event" is no longer needed.

Another issue is that, if you hadn't teamed up with that other character to kill the elite mob, then only one of you would have gotten credit, XP, and loot for killing the mob.

GW2 fixes those 2 issues by 1) having the open world content, as in Dyanmic Events, be their main PvE content.  You don't need to all have the same step of the same quest in your log.  These aren't just little side distraction to entertain you between quests.  You can just run into an event, start helping, and everyone gets credit.  That will foster a sense of "we're all working together on this goal" and cooperation will emerge.  You will all finish killing a mob or whatever you're facing and then a new event or 2 will spawn off of there.  So there is a reason to stick together, continue down the path, and keep cooperating.  And 2) All of the game mechanics in GW2 are geared towards making other players your allies.  No kill stealing, no tagging your mob or delivering the finishing blow and depriving you of something.  Cross-profession combos only further heighten this, as every other player's attacks can potentially enhance your own.  And everyone who helps gets credit, XP, and loot, so you're never sad/angry/jealous to see another player or 5 come running into the fight.

tl;dr: The Rifts in Rift, and Elite open-world mobs in SW:ToR are just side events, little one off things you can do between doing the main PvE content which are a series of quest hubs.  GW2 fixes this because these open world events are the main PvE content, they chain into further events, so it's not just kill the boss and we no longer have a reason to be in a group, and every mechainc in the game is there to make other players your allies, not your competition for XP and loot.

Originally posted by Warband

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Warband

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Creslin321

 ...

.

Your not getting it. Fresh doesn't mean entire new. Using my book example again while certain cliches in books are seen as bad, simply breaking them for the sake of breaking is not seen as good either if the end result is worse than original e.g killing off all the characters for no real reason. They are always constrained within certain limitations and true innovation is feeling fresh operative word being feeling, while being in those limitations. There is of course no empirical measurement of such concept and is completely subjective, but typical something more fresh is more respected and lauded than tried and test method that is not but a simple refinement which can also be very popular. Why because it's harder, leads to newer directions and is better for whatever's in the subject, due to a fresh take to compare and challenge the old.

 To be honest, I think we both know exactly what the other one is talking about, and we are in fact saying the same thing.  We're just quibbling over small technicalities ;).

Originally posted by Vallista

 

*snip*

3.My point of this thread was to address things many players like me have concern with, since I've played a lot of mmos.  I just want a good game thats is all.  I don't believe Arena Net did that with this game.  Every feature in this mmo I can do now in WoW, Rift and Swtor. 

 *snip*

 If you can do everything you're supposed to be able to do in GW2 in games like WoW, Rift and SWTOR, then why don't you go play those games? Simplly fork over the subs and play those games. If GW2 can provide a AAA MMO as a B2P game then that's already more than what you should reasonably be expecting.

If GW2 isn't good enough for you then wait for something that does meet your standards. TSW is coming out in april, is that something for you? TERA maybe?

If you feel GW2 won't be a good game then go look elsewhere. Have a nice day!

Is the OP high or something? GW2 is not the same as other MMO's , at all.

REASONS:

1. The combat is SKILL BASED, you can dodge attacks etc. Only game you can compare to there is Age of Conan, which was a crappy game but had amazing combat.

2. WvWvW is a huge PVP world where 3 servers fight eachother, a similar system was created in DAOC as someone stated before (For the record, DAOC is the best MMO and no other game have even come close to it after 12 years, ye i know its outdated now).

3. Gear doesn't carry much impact, in WOW, SWTOR and crappy games like that stats do ALOT.

4. The graphics are NOT cartoonish, they are high fantasy yes but not cartoonish and bland like WOW and SWTOR

5. Dynamic events, never been done properly. WAR had public quests and they were pretty neat. I'm sure GW2 will make them much better and they will change the game world.

6. The holy trinity is gone, i can heal myself whichever class i choose. THANK GOD!

7. Content scaling (You can play a level 10 zone when your level 60 and it will scale up to your level in difficulty.) Never been done.

I dont have time to list anything more. Check out this video if youre still not sure about this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC_ig73aMs&feature=relmfu

EDIT: One more thing! Mobs can kite you, thats never been done.

As i stated in my previous post, can you dodge attacks in other MMOs? Can mobs kite you? Can i as a mage put up a fire wall and a ranger allie can shot through it and the arrow will start to burn? Does other MMOs have dynamic events that changes the game world? Does other games have a flat leveling curve? Content scaling? Can you level your char with only PVP in other games? Does other games eliminate the holy trinity? Can you change the apperence of high level items to look like lower level items but have the same stats? Rewards for exploring?

I could go on all day.....

Don't waste your time.  While I'm not sure OP is a troll, they're probably trying to play devil's advocate to get people stirred up.  We all should know what GW2 is by now, and it's not anything OP suggests it is.  No one's mind is going to be swayed by purposeful ignorance.