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Originally posted by Zekiah

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Originally posted by Matt1128Y
I recently bought and played Star Wars The Old Republic

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As long as people keep doing the above, the answer is NO. Why would MMO companies do anything different when people are perfectly willing to throw cash at these poor titles?
Stop paying for these copy/paste games and then you'll see a change.

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Originally posted by Matt1128Y

I recently bought and played Star Wars The Old Republic, leveled up a Bounty Hunter to 35, and then realized... this game is basically exactly the same thing as WoW. Their themes are different, and the quests and dialogue are voiced in SWTOR, but besides that, there is no difference between the two.

What makes matters worse, WoW trumps SWTOR where they are similar (battlegrounds, dungeons, world pvp, etc.).

That being said, I don't like either of these games.

I just wonder if there will ever come a time when another well-done Ultima Online or Everquest will be released.

My issues with these newer MMORPGs (older MMORPGs lacked in some of the following ways too though) are as follows:

1. The leveling experience is unchallenging. Weak death penalties and easy leveling make for a boring game. It wouldn't be so bad if the death penalties were stricter, or if the leveling were more difficult, but neither is the case with these newer MMORPGs.

I agree. I came to these games in the late 90s and viewed them as they were at the time, an evolution of MUDs which were an evolution of table top games, which had no end, no finish line. I absolutely enjoyed the journey more than the destination, which in modern MMOs is basically grinding away at stale, repetative endgame content while stagnating for months as we await new content. The endgame is far too easy and fast to reach when all there is waiting is endless raid grinds which consist of memorising simon-says routines all for the exact same gear everyone else has anyway.

No challenge, no risk, no hardship to contrast the endless stream of epic loot simply leaves me feeling my character is totally disposable.

I put in no effort, take no chances and take no risks in an online world that is supposed to be a dangerous place, and I'm supposed to appreciate the rewards thrust upon me for taking 10 steps and clicking on 10 baskets?

There is no finish line, there can't be a finish line, yet everyone seems to play as if actually playing is a chore and they're entitled to the best of the best for little to no effort. You cannot 'Win' MMOs, yet it feels like everyones still trying.

2. Linear zone design. I didn't have this problem in WoW, but in SWTOR, the zone designs are terrible. It feels like you're stuck on a train of boredom going to hell.

I personally felt this in WoW as well, and most games to arrive after WoW nerfed the MMO landscape.

That feeling of being on rails and knowing that there is nowhere to explore destroys a huge part of what made previous games feel like an adventure. However they're now determined to force us to experience their game as they want it to be experienced rather than simply giving us the tools to adventure in a well crafted world. Their stories have NEVER been as good as those I've played through with no guiding hand in more open world and dangerous environments.

3. Focus on canned PVP. I enjoy community-driven spontaneous World PVP as opposed to being teleported to some arena and being told to capture a flag. Nuff said. By the way, there is practically no World PVP going on in SWTOR.

I specifically made a character on a pvp server, however pvping on Ilum simply stirs general chat into a frenzy of insults because they'd rather play staring competition as they trade objectives with the other side to more efficiently finish their dailies. Luckily this will/should be changing tomorrow.

4. Nothing to do but grind quests, level up your crafting, and grind "Battlegrounds" and "Dungeons." I can't believe there were MMORPGs released in 2011 where all you can do is the aforementioned.

It would be one thing if you could safely ignore their golden trail of pre-canned experiences and not be shooting yourself in the foot, but due to modern game design it's not possible. You'll be missing out on faction/gear/commendations/affection/insert mechanic .

It would also be nice if they kept those linear pre-scripted hallways they dare to call 'Dungeons' for those that actually prefer that type of guided, no surprises experience, yet also crafted the deep open world dungeons earlier games did so well for those of us that are tired of hallway grinds.

The dynamics of multiplayer areas/dungeons add way more excitement to an experience for me than walking in a straight line watching silly little scripts play out and cutscenes we'll skip over after the first time. There's a reason 'Dungeon Crawls' were fun and are remembered fondly by those that pushed their group deeper and deeper to the absolute limits of whaty they could handle for that hard to acquire treasure. And it wasn't because of any ham handed script, cutscene or invisible wall keeping me on some predetermined path.

5. Lack of character customization. Not many choices for faces, hair, etc.; and few species/race options--or the differences between species/race options are purely aesthetic (like in SWTOR).

 Aesthetically I think games have come a long way, and also would have to say they provide far more ways to customise your character than pre-WoW games. however in terms of actual character customisation in terms of skills/AAs/abilities and similar defining attributes they've gone backward to non-existant.

Given that raids are SO easy and with no risk whatsoever everyone can have the exact same gear, what are we left with but clones? There's nothing attatching me to a character that's so similar to every other player of my class. Especially considering it took me 2-3 weeks to max him/her out in the first place. I don't want my hobby to be so disposable.

All in all, this is NOT where I imagined games would be in 2012. I remember a decade ago marvelling at all the various ways this genre would and could grow in time, back when I foolishly assumed games would continue to be their own animal as pre-WoW games were and strive for excellence.

I never would have believed you if you'd told me that one dumbed down game would come along and simply be rehashed over and over for more than half a decade.

All we can hope for now is for an independant gaming studio to come along and make a game born of their passion and ingenuity rather than reverse engineered spreadsheets and feature to profit ratio statistics and take a brave step by producing something that's actually a fresh of breath in this stifling unimaginative MMO landscape.

 

 

Regardless, I'm done with these kinds of MMORPGs. Some call them theme park MMORPGs, but my problems with current MMORPGs are beyond that. For instance, a sandbox MMORPG could have weak death penalties too.

Going back to my original question, do any of you know of any MMORPGs that will be released in the future that will coincide with my tastes? Thanks.

While I have my doubts I have people trying to convince me GW2 will actually be a step in my direction with it's open world dungeon, but I'll wait and see. Otherwise the only ones on my radar are ArcheAge, Pathfinder MMO and Kingdoms of Amular MMO version codenamed 'Copernicus' still, I believe (as Kurt schilling was a pretty hardcore raider in EQ, I'm hoping some of his taste rubs off on the project - plus with Todd McFarlane as Art director, RA Salvatore behind the worlds lore writing, and...that guy from Elder Scrolls on board, it might be something to watch).

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I think statements like this thread's title makes people sound like old farts.  "Will music come back to the glory days of the 60s"  "Movies aren't the same anymore as they were in the past".

 

The thing is, any art form changes with time.  As people change, so do anything that they create and consume.  Games won't stay in the state that they are now forever.  They will change.  But asking for them to return to an old style is silly.  They will change in ways that we can't predict. 

 

You want to keep playing games?  You have to adapt to how they are or move on.  Same with music, movies or anything else.  Either that or you can keep listening to that elvis vinyl over and over again.  I'm not saying that listening to old music or playing old games is bad.  I'm just saying it's unreasonable to want current media to adopt those old styles.

There are still artists creating music and movies of every genre out there. Even new classical-style music is being composed everyday. It may not be mainstream, but it exists. Therein lies the difference with MMOs. Those old-style games no longer exist. At least not in a recognizable capacity. There's certainly a place for the easy-mode theme park MMOs that seem to be popular today, but when thats the ONLY thing being made, its a valid complaint that something different needs to come along.

 Even if they did return to the things we crave in the older games it will not be the same. Because we have grown older ourselves. We are looking for that first intense "HIGH" so to speak. It just doesn't work that way.

Ever read a really really good book. Then go back and read it again a year later, then again a year after that. About the third time through do you find yourself skipping the"dull" parts and going for the parts that you actively remember..You know the parts of the story you thought were really realy cool........yeah me to. We tend to gloss over the suckage parts.

Not to mention as much as I would love to play UO 20 hours a day now while using ICQ to talk to people and stealing people's house keys, being a general douche red character bemoaning trammel and it's evil ways ...it isn't going to happen. I have a family and a job and a life now and the lessening of patience that comes from all that. So while I would love it to happen. I think I will just piss and moan about it and play whatever 30 second sound byte shyte they pump out nowadays rememebring a better time long past and die a bitter old man :(

Or I can act like Richard Garriot and pretend I am still relevant to today's society game wise and look like a retard in outerspace.

My choices are bleak :(

BUT...... I am still hoping Archage doesn't suck and I find a new gameing home to immerse myself in. If it doesn't release here or whatever I might just learn Korean and play it anyway fuck it.

You know, I think there were reasons why EverQuest will always be my favorite MMORPG in which its just not fair to judge against other MMORPGs.  One of the prime reasons was it was my first MMO.  It was really cool to be playing with several other players and it was just something new.  I never really got high level because I was around 12 and always made new characters, so I can't so much for the higher level content.  Another thing was when the game came around.  While the internet was picking up steam for sure(think it was during or just before the whole .com buisness boomed), there was limited information.  Sure if you knew where to look you could find the info you wanted later down the line, but intially, you basically went into each zone blind.  Heck you didn't even have a map, which I think the lack of one had its own merits.  Finally they didn't have instancing, which let you see a lot more of the community for better or worse(LGuk: train to zone undead side! "twiches")

Today, however, people would probably not find this acceptable.  People want to have maps to find the quickest route, in addition to having quick travel stations and mounts early on.  People want instancing because they don't want to wait hours killing some generic mob until they can get into a group to actually get some loot.  Plus websites dedicated to any given MMO pop up before the game even leaves beta.  To be fair its understandable why people don't want to wait forever.  On the other hand it leaves the game being....well easy.  So I'm not sure if mmos will ever go back to those days or if they even can.  Perhaps once/if everyone doesn't try to copy WoW, realizes they won't be the next WoW, but can still have a very profitable population you can get close to it, but part of it might have just been it was a new type of game in general.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I think statements like this thread's title makes people sound like old farts.  "Will music come back to the glory days of the 60s"  "Movies aren't the same anymore as they were in the past".

 

The thing is, any art form changes with time.  As people change, so do anything that they create and consume.  Games won't stay in the state that they are now forever.  They will change.  But asking for them to return to an old style is silly.  They will change in ways that we can't predict. 

 

You want to keep playing games?  You have to adapt to how they are or move on.  Same with music, movies or anything else.  Either that or you can keep listening to that elvis vinyl over and over again.  I'm not saying that listening to old music or playing old games is bad.  I'm just saying it's unreasonable to want current media to adopt those old styles.

There are still artists creating music and movies of every genre out there. Even new classical-style music is being composed everyday. It may not be mainstream, but it exists. Therein lies the difference with MMOs. Those old-style games no longer exist. At least not in a recognizable capacity. There's certainly a place for the easy-mode theme park MMOs that seem to be popular today, but when thats the ONLY thing being made, its a valid complaint that something different needs to come along.

Your statement doesn't make much sense.  Yes new classical music is being composed, but it is not the same as classical music from the 18th century.  New music is completely different than Beethoven, Bach etc.  People who compose in exactly the same style as Beethoven don't get much attention.  It's been done before and why would you listen to some 3rd rate composer compose something in old styles when you can just listen to the masters.  And I'm not saying this new music is mainstream, it's not, but it certain does not ressemble older styles of classical music, even if people still call it "classical music"

Music has moved on, and is always changing.  So are games.

Originally posted by leojreimroc

Your statement doesn't make much sense.  Yes new classical music is being composed, but it is not the same as classical music from the 18th century.  New music is completely different than Beethoven, Bach etc.  People who compose in exactly the same style as Beethoven don't get much attention.  It's been done before and why would you listen to some 3rd rate composer compose something in old styles when you can just listen to the masters.  And I'm not saying this new music is mainstream, it's not, but it certain does not ressemble older styles of classical music, even if people still call it "classical music"

Music has moved on, and is always changing.  So are games.

The problem with this is you can still "listen to the masters." This isn't available in MMOs- the closest you'd get is the same song remixed into dubstep or some other horrid abomination of the originals.

Some elements of UO or EQ *may* return, but I would suggest the following will NOT in a AAA MMO...

1) The harsh time sink of EQ. That includes big death penalty, sitting around to mana up, camping, very rare spawn, non-instance dungeons/boss fights ... most of these do NOT add challenge but only frustration and time needed to spend on the game.

2) FFA PvP in UO

Surely there is always the niche, indie market and there may be *some* small games with these characteristics. However, they are no longer mainstream and i do not see a AAA MMO would have such design.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by Matt1128Y

 same thing as WoW.

Since WoW didn't really do anything beside tweak leveling speeds does that mean that everything is a EQ lite clone?

Tweak? They destroyed leveling speed.

They also simplified classes, led players by the hand from one area to the next, turned faction gains/losses into a joke, reduced max-level advancement to pure gear grinding, did away with armor cusomization, eliminated 90% of the incentive to be social with other players, and created a compact world comprised of playpens with mountains for bars.

 

I whole-heartedly believe that if WoW had been the exact same game WITHOUT the Warcraft name attached to it, it would not still be around today.

You see I started mmos with UO.  So most of the things you are blasting WoW about I think the exact same thing about EQ.  It is all about prospective.

EQ went so far to the time sink side that WoW was a natural gut check.

Yes, let us return to the dark days where having 300k subs was considered 'gigantic', where playing an MMO was not something you said socially. /sarcasm

Last I checked, EQ/UO are still up and running so what's the problem?

Originally posted by jpnz

Yes, let us return to the dark days where having 300k subs was considered 'gigantic', where playing an MMO was not something you said socially. /sarcasm

Last I checked, EQ/UO are still up and running so what's the problem?

 

They're old and we've been there and done that.

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Originally posted by jpnz
Yes, let us return to the dark days where having 300k subs was considered 'gigantic', where playing an MMO was not something you said socially. /sarcasm
Last I checked, EQ/UO are still up and running so what's the problem?
 

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Originally posted by leojreimroc

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I think statements like this thread's title makes people sound like old farts.  "Will music come back to the glory days of the 60s"  "Movies aren't the same anymore as they were in the past".

 

The thing is, any art form changes with time.  As people change, so do anything that they create and consume.  Games won't stay in the state that they are now forever.  They will change.  But asking for them to return to an old style is silly.  They will change in ways that we can't predict. 

 

You want to keep playing games?  You have to adapt to how they are or move on.  Same with music, movies or anything else.  Either that or you can keep listening to that elvis vinyl over and over again.  I'm not saying that listening to old music or playing old games is bad.  I'm just saying it's unreasonable to want current media to adopt those old styles.

There are still artists creating music and movies of every genre out there. Even new classical-style music is being composed everyday. It may not be mainstream, but it exists. Therein lies the difference with MMOs. Those old-style games no longer exist. At least not in a recognizable capacity. There's certainly a place for the easy-mode theme park MMOs that seem to be popular today, but when thats the ONLY thing being made, its a valid complaint that something different needs to come along.

Your statement doesn't make much sense.  Yes new classical music is being composed, but it is not the same as classical music from the 18th century.  New music is completely different than Beethoven, Bach etc.  People who compose in exactly the same style as Beethoven don't get much attention.  It's been done before and why would you listen to some 3rd rate composer compose something in old styles when you can just listen to the masters.  And I'm not saying this new music is mainstream, it's not, but it certain does not ressemble older styles of classical music, even if people still call it "classical music"

Music has moved on, and is always changing.  So are games.

But we're not talking about exact remakes of the old games, either. We're talking about new games done in the same style. So where is the difference, exactly?

What we had in those old games is not recreatable.

you cannot make the same anymore the current market wants something else.

UO etc were from a time when players were on average a little older than they are these days, those days will never return as those players have moved on or have become diluted amongst the miriad of MMOs available. I'm still in touch with old UO players 12 years on from our first meeting in-game, but none of us play the same games anymore.

As many people have already said because the players have changed so had the demands the market is making, you might not like non-sandbox games but that's where the demand is, all I'm hoping for is one good Sandbox to come out soon which I can invest some time into over the next couple of years and get some fun back. DF2.0 would tempt me but I've no idea when it'll come and I dont' want to starting playing DF to find that a wipe does happen.

Dominus is the main one I'm waiting on, trying not to get too excited about it though.

Originally posted by xeniar

What we had in those old games is not recreatable.

you cannot make the same anymore the current market wants something less.

fixed

Originally posted by leojreimroc

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I think statements like this thread's title makes people sound like old farts.  "Will music come back to the glory days of the 60s"  "Movies aren't the same anymore as they were in the past".

 

The thing is, any art form changes with time.  As people change, so do anything that they create and consume.  Games won't stay in the state that they are now forever.  They will change.  But asking for them to return to an old style is silly.  They will change in ways that we can't predict. 

 

You want to keep playing games?  You have to adapt to how they are or move on.  Same with music, movies or anything else.  Either that or you can keep listening to that elvis vinyl over and over again.  I'm not saying that listening to old music or playing old games is bad.  I'm just saying it's unreasonable to want current media to adopt those old styles.

There are still artists creating music and movies of every genre out there. Even new classical-style music is being composed everyday. It may not be mainstream, but it exists. Therein lies the difference with MMOs. Those old-style games no longer exist. At least not in a recognizable capacity. There's certainly a place for the easy-mode theme park MMOs that seem to be popular today, but when thats the ONLY thing being made, its a valid complaint that something different needs to come along.

Your statement doesn't make much sense.  Yes new classical music is being composed, but it is not the same as classical music from the 18th century.  New music is completely different than Beethoven, Bach etc.  People who compose in exactly the same style as Beethoven don't get much attention.  It's been done before and why would you listen to some 3rd rate composer compose something in old styles when you can just listen to the masters.  And I'm not saying this new music is mainstream, it's not, but it certain does not ressemble older styles of classical music, even if people still call it "classical music"

Music has moved on, and is always changing.  So are games.

leojmreimroc is correct in everything he says. The problem also is that things from the past are never remembered as they actually were. All the flaws are forgotten. The contemporary is always viewed critically, however. And it seems to be just human nature to think everything is going to pot. People have thought this way since they thought at all.

Originally posted by Mahlo

Originally posted by leojreimroc

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I think statements like this thread's title makes people sound like old farts.  "Will music come back to the glory days of the 60s"  "Movies aren't the same anymore as they were in the past".

 

The thing is, any art form changes with time.  As people change, so do anything that they create and consume.  Games won't stay in the state that they are now forever.  They will change.  But asking for them to return to an old style is silly.  They will change in ways that we can't predict. 

 

You want to keep playing games?  You have to adapt to how they are or move on.  Same with music, movies or anything else.  Either that or you can keep listening to that elvis vinyl over and over again.  I'm not saying that listening to old music or playing old games is bad.  I'm just saying it's unreasonable to want current media to adopt those old styles.

There are still artists creating music and movies of every genre out there. Even new classical-style music is being composed everyday. It may not be mainstream, but it exists. Therein lies the difference with MMOs. Those old-style games no longer exist. At least not in a recognizable capacity. There's certainly a place for the easy-mode theme park MMOs that seem to be popular today, but when thats the ONLY thing being made, its a valid complaint that something different needs to come along.

Your statement doesn't make much sense.  Yes new classical music is being composed, but it is not the same as classical music from the 18th century.  New music is completely different than Beethoven, Bach etc.  People who compose in exactly the same style as Beethoven don't get much attention.  It's been done before and why would you listen to some 3rd rate composer compose something in old styles when you can just listen to the masters.  And I'm not saying this new music is mainstream, it's not, but it certain does not ressemble older styles of classical music, even if people still call it "classical music"

Music has moved on, and is always changing.  So are games.

leojmreimroc is correct in everything he says. The problem also is that things from the past are never remembered as they actually were. All the flaws are forgotten. The contemporary is always viewed critically, however. And it seems to be just human nature to think everything is going to pot. People have thought this way since they thought at all.

Yes, people can do that. No, not all people do. Some people can actually speak objectively sometimes.

Originally posted by Mahlo

leojmreimroc is correct in everything he says. The problem also is that things from the past are never remembered as they actually were. All the flaws are forgotten. The contemporary is always viewed critically, however. And it seems to be just human nature to think everything is going to pot. People have thought this way since they thought at all.

I never claimed, nor have I implied, that the old MMOs were flawless. I only stated that I like them better. Don't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that "flaws are forgotten". Not everyone considers the same features "flaws" as others anyway. A lot of the "flaws" I find with, for example, WoW, might be exactly what someone else is looking for in an MMO, and that's alright. I'm not trying to deny anyone else their game style of choice, just saying that there's room for more than just one style of MMO in today's market.

i hope not.  those days werent really all that fun. they were just all we had at the time.

but you know, if you miss eq and uo so bad they are both still running and nothings stoping you from going back.