Originally posted by Snaylor47

If I am an investor why would I want to invest 100 mil into an MMO to make a good profit if a Star Wars MMO by Bioware couldn't mantain a great profit?

Because as an investor... you'd be looking for the next big thing.  As long as you recoup your money, who gives a crap.  If it makes more, that's just icing.

Think about Eve or Rift.  They may not EVER be WoW but they've mad enough to keep going, expand, and then some.  No, they weren't WoW but you think the investors in either company are hurting from it?  Doubtful.  And now because of the CCP/Trion influence their NEXT games are that much more likely to reach a pre-positioned audience that have favorable views of the companies (if not the games themselves)

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Creslin321

Snip

1.5 billion dollars

That's a pretty freaking big number.  That means that if your total production costs are $100 million, then you really only need to capture 10 percent (being conservative because of variable retail costs) of the market to make back your investment in a year.

I don't see how the failure of one game would stop people from investing.  The industry is just too big and profitable.

Thats only if oyu have WoW like numbers thoughs.

 

I think you'll see a decrease in large scale multi million dollor MMOs.

 

If I am an investor why would I want to invest 100 mil into an MMO to make a good profit if a Star Wars MMO by Bioware couldn't mantain a great profit?

 

Changing combat and gameplay will only get you so far (Ask battlefield 3).

I think a smarter development studio with a fraction of the budget could do something more appealing and with a better profit ratio.

Something indie developers can teach us (the good indie developers) is how important is to actually innovate. Problem is large studios are not willing to take risks.

Originally posted by MigPosada

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Creslin321

Snip

1.5 billion dollars

That's a pretty freaking big number.  That means that if your total production costs are $100 million, then you really only need to capture 10 percent (being conservative because of variable retail costs) of the market to make back your investment in a year.

I don't see how the failure of one game would stop people from investing.  The industry is just too big and profitable.

Thats only if oyu have WoW like numbers thoughs.

 

I think you'll see a decrease in large scale multi million dollor MMOs.

 

If I am an investor why would I want to invest 100 mil into an MMO to make a good profit if a Star Wars MMO by Bioware couldn't mantain a great profit?

 

Changing combat and gameplay will only get you so far (Ask battlefield 3).

I think a smarter development studio with a fraction of the budget could do something more appealing and with a better profit ratio.

Something indie developers can teach us (the good indie developers) is how important is to actually innovate. Problem is large studios are not willing to take risks.

QFT

You made some good points about the PVP. IMHO SWTOR has one of the worst thought out PVP themes I have seen in a modern MMO. I mean really if they didnt want to put any thought in it they could have just copy and pasted DAOCs PVP theme, only with bases and AT-ATs instead of keeps/seige equipment. That would have been 100x better than ILUMs current state. I am going to give bioware the benefit of the doubt and hope they get their head out of their arses and release some solid open world content.

That  being said I will still continue to play and support swtor because it's the best thing out with nothing but an overhyped GW2 in the near future.

Cypher Nine out !

Originally posted by MigPosada

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Creslin321

Snip

1.5 billion dollars

That's a pretty freaking big number.  That means that if your total production costs are $100 million, then you really only need to capture 10 percent (being conservative because of variable retail costs) of the market to make back your investment in a year.

I don't see how the failure of one game would stop people from investing.  The industry is just too big and profitable.

Thats only if oyu have WoW like numbers thoughs.

 

I think you'll see a decrease in large scale multi million dollor MMOs.

 

If I am an investor why would I want to invest 100 mil into an MMO to make a good profit if a Star Wars MMO by Bioware couldn't mantain a great profit?

 

Changing combat and gameplay will only get you so far (Ask battlefield 3).

I think a smarter development studio with a fraction of the budget could do something more appealing and with a better profit ratio.

Something indie developers can teach us (the good indie developers) is how important is to actually innovate. Problem is large studios are not willing to take risks.

+1

Originally posted by MigPosada

I think a smarter development studio with a fraction of the budget could do something more appealing and with a better profit ratio.

If that were the case then we'd would have seen it by now. Regardless of what you think of SWTOR's questing structure and combat (Because at the end of the day those are the two big things) you have to at least admit that a KOTOR MMO by Bioware sounds more appealing to just about anything else out there.

Something indie developers can teach us (the good indie developers) is how important is to actually innovate. Problem is large studios are not willing to take risks.

If you ask me if anything they have thought us that so called "Innovation" is almost meaningless and that having a good polished proctuct is far more importent.

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by MigPosada

I think a smarter development studio with a fraction of the budget could do something more appealing and with a better profit ratio.

If that were the case then we'd would have seen it by now. Regardless of what you think of SWTOR's questing structure and combat (Because at the end of the day those are the two big things) you have to at least admit that a KOTOR MMO by Bioware sounds more appealing to just about anything else out there.

Something indie developers can teach us (the good indie developers) is how important is to actually innovate. Problem is large studios are not willing to take risks.

If you ask me if anything they have thought us that so called "Innovation" is almost meaningless and that having a good polished proctuct is far more importent.

Mmm, the red text looks like I was writting that :P

It's better to put it outside the quote box, me thinks.

Good polished products are meaningless without innovation, we always try to experience new things, otherwise the industry would be stuck.

And I think because the game art/craft/industry is imperfect and in a learning process, is that we haven't "seen it by now".

Ahh, and because to innovate is much much harder. But it's not surprise if we want the best to stand out.

Sorry that it hasn't quite worked out for Pony. I know you were a big fan of the game before release. 

I haven't reached level 50 yet. I've been actually just alt hoping through all of my characters because I'm actually a bit afraid of what will happen once I reach level 50. However, the repetiveness, other than the class quests, are starting to get to me.

I've been trying to level just by PVP on my Operative. I've grown to hate Hutball so much. It's a real chore for me to level that Operative in that way.

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Xthos

 I know its all opnion, but I don't agree, I mean take away VO (to me its not that big for a playing point, its nice, but I like substance, verse flash)....I would disagree and say that UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG, and even Vanguard all did more for their time/place, than TOR...From what I have seen.

I am not a big fan of the companions, so if VO and Companions are the basis of the arguement, then I can see how we don't agree.

 

Player created content is not really content at all IMO.

Actual Content wise all of hte games you listed had very little save for EQ and DAoC.

 

SWTOR added in its time frame Full VO and a chose you're own story type of game. Things such as housing do not stack up against what TOR has IMO and I am not going to continue to sub because of things like that.

 You didn't say content, even though I would argue against your point, you said did more with development time.....more is a whole package...You chose your story, but it doesn't do anything, it may modify something on a quest a little, but when the quest is done, it is like you never did it, except in your own story instance which you are 'in', like 1% of the time...So if thats the crowning achievement, to modify something that isn't meant for anyone else...I find it lacking as a major factor.

I stated all those titles as in their time, due to things advance, and the innovation and change they brought, I think TOR does not stack up, and in the end it will not work...I will wait and see, but thats what I see atm....I will give them time, but I do not see adding it to my list of favorite mmos of all time...I think Rift grabbed me more, to be honest...And I played it 3-4 months, the shortest time I have ever played a mmo that I paid for.

Originally posted by Snaylor47

We have had tons of MMOs that have "Broken the mold" more then those three (You could make the argument that TOR broke it too not more then GW2 AA TSW(Calling it now SWTOR will be more innovative then TSW.) ) Darkfall, TERA (Its already failing in the East I doubt it will do anybetter over here) and even EvE have all menaged to to something different yet are only able ot retain a fraction of what WoW has and even failures like WAR still have about 1/6th the number of players as EvE and EQIIs severs are all full.

 

My new question to you is, Is changing the core element of gameplay enough?

 

BF3 while a poor example still pales when compared to the new COD.

I'm not a fan of modern realism military shooters, so I never played CoD or BF3.  I wish someone would make UT4, instead.. so, can't comment on them, specifically.

I disagree that any major MMOs have even attempted to "break the mold" since WoW was released.  I can't speak to whether TSW, GW2, or AA will be successful in doing so, but at least they claim to be trying.  I don't know how you can say there have been "tons" of MMOs that have done the same.  Darkfall is way too indy, and Tera isn't out here, where I can try it, and comment on whether its mold breaking or not.  

Is changing the core gameplay enough, though?  No, it has to also be done well, and that is the hard part.  Innovation is easy.  You could make a game, where we all play as fleas trying to live on the back of a dog, and it might be the most innovative MMO ever, but that alone wouldn't make it good.

If it is done well, though?  I think that is the very foundation of progress, and entertainment needs to progress to avoid getting stale.

Wait for a year, or two, then take a fresh look., MMO's are notorius for releasing early, since they can patch on the fly. Many MMO's became great games, a year or more after release.

Originally posted by DarkPony

That's right.

After anticipating and defending this game very eagerly for a year or more (you are welcome to check my posting history) and after making it to max level in a very Swtor-heavy first month I am sad to say I am kind of disappointed in its long term value.

Despite its potential and the very worthwhile first month I don't think I will play it for much longer. The main things which prevent me from having fun with it for a longer time are personal but maybe also general problems:

- Poorly thought out and implemented world pvp;

Things might change for the better when 1.1 gets released but as of now it is simply beyond disappointing;

Clicking a couple of enemy tanks a day to complete your daily and weekly world pvp quests; killing players actually is detrimental to completing that objective so both factions simply "exchange" world pvp objectives in a friendly atmosphere. Very ironic since these quests are pretty much the sole incentives to seek out enemy players in the open world. ... Seek out enemy players to "click on tanks with", that is.

Questing areas don't overlap much; on most worlds factions are playing in the same open map but in very seperate areas; No Southshore - Tarren Mill random pvp raids to stumble into.

The peeps at Blizzard were smart enough to actually put factions in eachother's ways, (both zone and quest wise), and throughout the leveling range bar the first zones. This is sadly lacking in Swtor. During leveling your battles with either empire of republic will be mostly restricted to warzones and npc enemies out in the world. If you do encounter an enemy player out in the world, please give him directions in /say because he's probably lost.

World pvp kills, as of now, don't even get registered or acknowledged, let alone reward valor or tokens.

Logically all this means that even the Outlaw's Den on Tatooine is as dead as a door nail.

I might stick around for 1.1 though, to see to what extent things will change in this regard but all in all it seems that all world pvp content was added as an afterthought. Much like crafting in WAR or AoC.

- Fragmented game "world":

Even though the worlds are big, open and richly detailed. And even though world <-> personal instance transitions are completely seamless, traveling between worlds or stations means staring at a long loading screen each time; so long that it breaks my attention, immersion and possibly other -ions too.

- Uninspired design;

Making relatively compact space stations the main hub for each faction was a very, very bad call in my opinion; it has been said before by others; these kind of artificial "shopping mall like" environments function pretty well as hubs but feel very artifical and unimmersive. Also they are lag heavy with 200+ players in your direct vicinity at prime time.

I think that the fleet cantina music (at least on empire side) will eventually inspire people to choke small animals and maybe even family members, which really is a shame.

- Cookie cutter themepark formula;

Swtor is going the well trodden path of carrot-driven gameplay a little too much in my opinion; even the exploring content (datacrons and matrix cubes / shards) are based on improvement / progress driven incentives. PvP, PvE, dailies, exploring, space-on-rails; its all about gearing up and improving your stats on a regular basis.

This cunning treadmill has proven to be one of the main pillars of success for "long term gaming" in general but sadly it is a little too apparent in SWTOR. Also because of the ...

- Lack of gameplay alternatives;

At max level it's either grinding the same old warzones (mostly Huttball), doing hard mode fp's, spend your 10 minutes on Ilum for quest completion each day and if you like some extra grind: doing level 50 dailies on Belsavis and Illum for "daily commendations".

Since I am not much of an instance crawler, the things I can do out in the open world, like world pvp, harvesting, fishing, to give a few examples, are crucial.

Sadly Swtor doesn't tap into that so much; the two main time sinks for players at max level are warzones and flashpoints; the worlds are mostly leveling content and don't play much of a role at all at level 50. So yeah, at 50 you'll spend most your time in either instances or in a shopping mall.

IF world pvp on Ilum post 1.1. turns out to be very fun and engaging even after people did their daily, that might be a saving grace in my eyes. I'm very curious how it will pan out.

- Final words:

My outlook has shifted a lot; I still think its a very good game but not so much in the long run for me personally. Since the things which are important to me: world pvp, alternative open world content and immersive aspects are either lacking or disappointing.

Some of these things might successfully be addressed soon though, rekindling my fire for this game, but as for now;

 

/sad pony

 

 

 

You are a troll and a hater...why are you even posting on this forum if you do  not like this game.  ::huge grin::

Originally posted by WikingDK

The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

 

Sorry, Sir. But you don't come here and rub Darks face to dirt.

He is the one that has been telling people not to rush and has numerous times told people to smell the roses while there and I'm sure he's been doing just that. You can probably say many things about his Internet-persona but you really don't come here telling him how to play SW:ToR.

@Dark: I'm sad to read about this (unless your account is stolen and this was written by some person with malicious intention).

I didn't like the game and I've disagreed with you on many threads but I kind of envied your enthusiasm on this title.

I hope you find the game fun again or another title to enjoy about.

Originally posted by DarkPony

That's right.

After anticipating and defending this game very eagerly for a year or more (you are welcome to check my posting history) and after making it to max level in a very Swtor-heavy first month I am sad to say I am kind of disappointed in its long term value.

Despite its potential and the very worthwhile first month I don't think I will play it for much longer. The main things which prevent me from having fun with it for a longer time are personal but maybe also general problems:

- Poorly thought out and implemented world pvp;

Things might change for the better when 1.1 gets released but as of now it is simply beyond disappointing;

Clicking a couple of enemy tanks a day to complete your daily and weekly world pvp quests; killing players actually is detrimental to completing that objective so both factions simply "exchange" world pvp objectives in a friendly atmosphere. Very ironic since these quests are pretty much the sole incentives to seek out enemy players in the open world. ... Seek out enemy players to "click on tanks with", that is.

Questing areas don't overlap much; on most worlds factions are playing in the same open map but in very seperate areas; No Southshore - Tarren Mill random pvp raids to stumble into.

The peeps at Blizzard were smart enough to actually put factions in eachother's ways, (both zone and quest wise), and throughout the leveling range bar the first zones. This is sadly lacking in Swtor. During leveling your battles with either empire of republic will be mostly restricted to warzones and npc enemies out in the world. If you do encounter an enemy player out in the world, please give him directions in /say because he's probably lost.

World pvp kills, as of now, don't even get registered or acknowledged, let alone reward valor or tokens.

Logically all this means that even the Outlaw's Den on Tatooine is as dead as a door nail.

I might stick around for 1.1 though, to see to what extent things will change in this regard but all in all it seems that all world pvp content was added as an afterthought. Much like crafting in WAR or AoC.

- Fragmented game "world":

Even though the worlds are big, open and richly detailed. And even though world <-> personal instance transitions are completely seamless, traveling between worlds or stations means staring at a long loading screen each time; so long that it breaks my attention, immersion and possibly other -ions too.

- Uninspired design;

Making relatively compact space stations the main hub for each faction was a very, very bad call in my opinion; it has been said before by others; these kind of artificial "shopping mall like" environments function pretty well as hubs but feel very artifical and unimmersive. Also they are lag heavy with 200+ players in your direct vicinity at prime time.

I think that the fleet cantina music (at least on empire side) will eventually inspire people to choke small animals and maybe even family members, which really is a shame.

- Cookie cutter themepark formula;

Swtor is going the well trodden path of carrot-driven gameplay a little too much in my opinion; even the exploring content (datacrons and matrix cubes / shards) are based on improvement / progress driven incentives. PvP, PvE, dailies, exploring, space-on-rails; its all about gearing up and improving your stats on a regular basis.

This cunning treadmill has proven to be one of the main pillars of success for "long term gaming" in general but sadly it is a little too apparent in SWTOR. Also because of the ...

- Lack of gameplay alternatives;

At max level it's either grinding the same old warzones (mostly Huttball), doing hard mode fp's, spend your 10 minutes on Ilum for quest completion each day and if you like some extra grind: doing level 50 dailies on Belsavis and Illum for "daily commendations".

Since I am not much of an instance crawler, the things I can do out in the open world, like world pvp, harvesting, fishing, to give a few examples, are crucial.

Sadly Swtor doesn't tap into that so much; the two main time sinks for players at max level are warzones and flashpoints; the worlds are mostly leveling content and don't play much of a role at all at level 50. So yeah, at 50 you'll spend most your time in either instances or in a shopping mall.

IF world pvp on Ilum post 1.1. turns out to be very fun and engaging even after people did their daily, that might be a saving grace in my eyes. I'm very curious how it will pan out.

- Final words:

My outlook has shifted a lot; I still think its a very good game but not so much in the long run for me personally. Since the things which are important to me: world pvp, alternative open world content and immersive aspects are either lacking or disappointing.

Some of these things might successfully be addressed soon though, rekindling my fire for this game, but as for now;

 

/sad pony

 

 

 

LMFAO..after all the over the top praise and the accussing anyone who didn't get caught up in the hype train of being a troll,you are leaving lol.

What i don't understand is it took most of us 2 beta weekends to see what swtor was all about.

Pretty sure you though swtor was the bestest and anyone who didn't agree was a troll.

Originally posted by olepi

Wait for a year, or two, then take a fresh look., MMO's are notorius for releasing early, since they can patch on the fly. Many MMO's became great games, a year or more after release.

well u can wait... ill be in GW2 :)

Originally posted by Sylvarii

*snip*

LMFAO..after all the over the top praise and the accussing anyone who didn't get caught up in the hype train of being a troll,you are leaving lol.

What i don't understand is it took most of us 2 beta weekends to see what swtor was all about.

Pretty sure you though swtor was the bestest and anyone who didn't agree was a troll.

Don't feel vindicated just yet.

Originally posted by DarkPony

I still think a lot of the criticism / flak which Swtor has been getting was either premature, not based on facts or actual experience and inspired by personal bias though.

There has been very little worthwhile criticism from people who had actually played it for a long time / made it to level 50 in beta. The little of it that actually did surface was subsequently drowned in the onslaught of unmerrited hate.

The points in the above impression are based on my own experiences though,and I don't regret a minute of playing it or a penny spend on it. Because like I said, I did have a great first month.

 

Originally posted by WikingDK

The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

 

Look, i seriously understand where Pony is coming from, because i experienced the same letdown this very night. I'm a nobody here on this forum but i read a great many posts here every day and i thoroughly enjoyed Pony's posts on the game throughout this past year.  The simple fact that this happened to Pony is crazy to begin with.  

If you personally are enjoying the game, more power to you, that's why we all play these games and often times converge here to this website to discuss all of this.  However, you are in no position to judge Pony in any way, shape, or form.  If there's anyone in these forums that gave ToR a legitimate shot, it was Pony.

On a personal note, I am sad to see this happen in general.  For myself, it was the realization that the carrot on a stick isn't worth a sub anymore. Some may disagree with me, but i just can't justify it anymore.  I want something deeper...something more, and i just can't find it.  It's disheartening.  Many people saw this coming, albeit without actual proof, but many were correct in their assumption of what this game would be.

It was a great game....for one go 'round.  The second character sunk me.  

What really bothers me about this forum is that people Automatically assume that Pony hit 50 because he rushed.

Thats troubling.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to play through to 50 and due to the nature of most of the filler quests, subsequent levelling to 50 is shortened even further.  Yea the people who made it to 50 before launch were rushing but its the first month.

Anyone who PvPs knows the sheer amount of 50s out there.  You think they all rushed up the tree?  Really?  As more and more people play, I think a more conclusive pattern will emerge.  What then?  Oh it has been 6 months since launch, you rushed to 50, you should have taken your time..

I think it's just an overwhelming case of 'more of the same' - Because MMOs can be such ardous feats it#s becoming really apparant now that each title is just basically the same game in a different skin.

Originally posted by Skymourne

Originally posted by WikingDK

The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

 

Look, i seriously understand where Pony is coming from, because i experienced the same letdown this very night. I'm a nobody here on this forum but i read a great many posts here every day and i thoroughly enjoyed Pony's posts on the game throughout this past year.  The simple fact that this happened to Pony is crazy to begin with.  

If you personally are enjoying the game, more power to you, that's why we all play these games and often times converge here to this website to discuss all of this.  However, you are in no position to judge Pony in any way, shape, or form.  If there's anyone in these forums that gave ToR a legitimate shot, it was Pony.

On a personal note, I am sad to see this happen in general.  For myself, it was the realization that the carrot on a stick isn't worth a sub anymore. Some may disagree with me, but i just can't justify it anymore.  I want something deeper...something more, and i just can't find it.  It's disheartening.  Many people saw this coming, albeit without actual proof, but many were correct in their assumption of what this game would be.

It was a great game....for one go 'round.  The second character sunk me.  

Hey, we are all just nobodies on this forum, glad you decided to weigh in on the discussion, the more PVP we have the better.

Everytime another standard themepark MMO is released, more and more people come the same realization as yourself, you don't really want the same mechanics (with subtle variations) in every MMO that you play, you crave something different, hence your disillusionment.

My great hope is that over time more and more people will reach this same state (I've been in it for years) and some developer will be able to capitalize on the demand.