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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Guild Wars 2: WTF no Raids

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256 posts found
  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

 
OP  1/14/12 5:10:29 PM#61
Originally posted by Vhaln

So, what do we know about the 5-mans GW2 is going to have?  Are the going to be like traditional instances?  Are they going to be the sort of things players will grind over and over, a lot like raids?

One of the few extensive bits of info that you can actually find on the main site, has to do with dungeons. LINK

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

 
OP  1/14/12 5:14:30 PM#62
Originally posted by Nessanugget

They have implmented what they call "Dynamic Events" and im sure that is what is supposed to replace the end-game raiding aspect of GW2... That's just a personal opionion I wills ay that eventually players will be ble to spawn these events, and im sure that key to being able to spawn the event won't be as easy as just walking to in instance and teleporting through.

Dynamic Events are in no way designed to replace the raiding that these kind of WoW/Rift raiders want. They want the large group content to be the hardest content and offer up the best loot in the game. GW2 doesn't offer that because all they offer is this unfathomable idea of actual fun large-scale, PvE content, without the drama.

  User Deleted
1/14/12 5:14:31 PM#63
Originally posted by sidhaethe
Originally posted by Plasmicredx

This doesn't sound good for people that want there to be hundreds of people fighting a huge dragon just for fun and cool looking items

Actually, elite dynamic events, or the entire continent of Orr would be exactly what those people ought to be looking forward to.

The only thing that they can't have is specific, exclusive group sizes larger than 5. That's it. You want a hundred people doing an epic dragon battle? You got it (you just can't keep people out).

And instead of thinking "oh, great, these plebes are going to screw up our elite event," instead try to recognize that a) if they're actually terrible at it, their contribution level probably won't make the event scale up, and b) if they ARE somewhat competent, you just got an additional challenge! Now try and see if you and your whole guild can get that gold contribution level despite the additional pubbies, and you have yourself that measuring stick you wanted.

Oh ok! This sounds really good then.

Can't wait to see Guild Wars 2 to confirm all of this!

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

1/14/12 5:44:31 PM#64
Originally posted by Plasmicredx
Originally posted by sidhaethe
Originally posted by Plasmicredx

This doesn't sound good for people that want there to be hundreds of people fighting a huge dragon just for fun and cool looking items

Actually, elite dynamic events, or the entire continent of Orr would be exactly what those people ought to be looking forward to.

The only thing that they can't have is specific, exclusive group sizes larger than 5. That's it. You want a hundred people doing an epic dragon battle? You got it (you just can't keep people out).

And instead of thinking "oh, great, these plebes are going to screw up our elite event," instead try to recognize that a) if they're actually terrible at it, their contribution level probably won't make the event scale up, and b) if they ARE somewhat competent, you just got an additional challenge! Now try and see if you and your whole guild can get that gold contribution level despite the additional pubbies, and you have yourself that measuring stick you wanted.

Oh ok! This sounds really good then.

Can't wait to see Guild Wars 2 to confirm all of this!

It's confirmed and has been shown on many boss fights and events, if you want I can send you links.

Though all in all just wait and play it.

I did and even though they had to "nerf" the bosses for making it easy for the pre alpha it was pretty lengthy.

I think you'll like the challenge once you play it.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

1/14/12 8:47:20 PM#65
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by Nessanugget

They have implmented what they call "Dynamic Events" and im sure that is what is supposed to replace the end-game raiding aspect of GW2... That's just a personal opionion I wills ay that eventually players will be ble to spawn these events, and im sure that key to being able to spawn the event won't be as easy as just walking to in instance and teleporting through.

Dynamic Events are in no way designed to replace the raiding that these kind of WoW/Rift raiders want. They want the large group content to be the hardest content and offer up the best loot in the game. GW2 doesn't offer that because all they offer is this unfathomable idea of actual fun large-scale, PvE content, without the drama.

True.

 

I think what mmorpg playerbase need to realize is that developers that make AAA games trying to cater to whole or almost whole playerbase are slowly going to end.

Sure AAA games won't change into some niche hardcore games - no chance for that, but since WoW losing subs, and WoW-like games failing up till now to hold interest of players for long time , SOME devs will try to do SOME games a tad diffrently. Just a bit.

Still that mean is that some AAA games will NOT cater to whole playerbase of WoW.

 

Hardcore raiding PvE-rs is one of this group. If someone really find best fun in being into big raids and beating hardest newest raids - he will just not find it in GW2.

That's conscious decision from A.net.

 

Same as for example Swtor is not aiming to compete for e-sport crowd, while GW2 does.

 

I really hope genre in 3-4 years will be much more diverse gameplay wise than it is atm. (in AAA titles, I know that there are indie or / and very old mmorpg's / some f2p games that break WoW-clonism).

  Nethermancer

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 530

"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different"

1/14/12 8:49:37 PM#66

TBH for me one of the big selling points is its doing things differently

So for me personally its a positive not a negative that there is no raids

 

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  User Deleted
1/14/12 9:15:13 PM#67
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by Nessanugget

They have implmented what they call "Dynamic Events" and im sure that is what is supposed to replace the end-game raiding aspect of GW2... That's just a personal opionion I wills ay that eventually players will be ble to spawn these events, and im sure that key to being able to spawn the event won't be as easy as just walking to in instance and teleporting through.

Dynamic Events are in no way designed to replace the raiding that these kind of WoW/Rift raiders want. They want the large group content to be the hardest content and offer up the best loot in the game. GW2 doesn't offer that because all they offer is this unfathomable idea of actual fun large-scale, PvE content, without the drama.

Raiding as we know it is a creation of Everquest which was brought by Everquest Raiders and Devs to WOW which spread to the EQ, WOW family of games, TOR, WAR, LOTR , AOC and RIFT and a few others including ftp clones. That doesn't mean that everyone does it. What does happen is most of these clonse are stale. So whenever a game comes along that gasp doesn't use it the Raiders go into QQ mode and raid the games official forums and demand they implement raiding right away. 

I'm sorry I hate raiding it is boring and is simply a reward for not sleeping  and hitting a few macros to kill your 60 foot raid bosses. It is a totally un immersive mini game that is totally detached from the game world. And they only started doing that back in the day so that people who were afraid to do PVP could feel like they were accomplishing somehing by killing monsters.

  User Deleted
1/14/12 9:15:54 PM#68

Honestly to me you do not need to have drasticaly better gear that comes from content to make it desirable to be done, which would eliimante the need for raiding gear. To me the biggest different between a raid as well as a dongeon is the depth of the story and the effect on the game setting. A dongeon normally only efects the zone you are in or has an effect in that area, but a raid  normally has effect that affect the entire world and setting (such as world bosses, or creature of vast power or importance.).  To me a game should always have raiding in it yet it should not just be a gear grind, or a progression affair, but a desire to see more of the story as well as world. Even though many hated them overall i had always loved the requirements, attunements, and such that had to be doen to enter places or raids as they functioned as a way of making sure people knew what was going on in the story. Though to me these thiggns should have been account-wise so that if you are bringing up a new character you could skip them if you wishedm but a up and coming guild or character that had never seen them would actually need to progress thru them to gain access to other things. Atleast for me the story of the game that is really central for me in playing has always been sacrificed for the grinding, and gear bth in pvp or in pve. Even if no gear or achievements were in a raid for me to gain, i would still run it for the story thhat is being told thru them, and just like rereading a good book i would redo them as well. The better you tell a story in a game the less need you have to entice people to run things, yet having rewards for running thigns is not evil so long as you make it secondary to the actual story and events of the content.

  User Deleted
1/14/12 9:21:05 PM#69
Originally posted by Elricmerren

Honestly to me you do not need to have drasticaly better gear that comes from content to make it desirable to be done, which would eliimante the need for raiding gear. To me the biggest different between a raid as well as a dongeon is the depth of the story and the effect on the game setting. A dongeon normally only efects the zone you are in or has an effect in that area, but a raid  normally has effect that affect the entire world and setting (such as world bosses, or creature of vast power or importance.).  To me a game should always have raiding in it yet it should not just be a gear grind, or a progression affair, but a desire to see more of the story as well as world. Even though many hated them overall i had always loved the requirements, attunements, and such that had to be doen to enter places or raids as they functioned as a way of making sure people knew what was going on in the story. Though to me these thiggns should have been account-wise so that if you are bringing up a new character you could skip them if you wishedm but a up and coming guild or character that had never seen them would actually need to progress thru them to gain access to other things. Atleast for me the story of the game that is really central for me in playing has always been sacrificed for the grinding, and gear bth in pvp or in pve. Even if no gear or achievements were in a raid for me to gain, i would still run it for the story thhat is being told thru them, and just like rereading a good book i would redo them as well. The better you tell a story in a game the less need you have to entice people to run things, yet having rewards for running thigns is not evil so long as you make it secondary to the actual story and events of the content.

Well that is an opinion most of the GW2 player base does not share. Any raid content forced into a game setting will always lead to loot grinding. Attunement, tiered gear and all of that are carrots on a stick. To me it is not like reading a good book, it's like taking  a book with glass and nails glued to it, and smashing my face with it, that is what Raiding is to me. I am happy there is not chance, not chance at all of this game being a Raid loot grind. Just get used to it. For a good Raid themepark experience I advise you to go the Direction of RIFT.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

1/14/12 9:26:37 PM#70
Originally posted by Azaria
Originally posted by Elricmerren

Honestly to me you do not need to have drasticaly better gear that comes from content to make it desirable to be done, which would eliimante the need for raiding gear. To me the biggest different between a raid as well as a dongeon is the depth of the story and the effect on the game setting. A dongeon normally only efects the zone you are in or has an effect in that area, but a raid  normally has effect that affect the entire world and setting (such as world bosses, or creature of vast power or importance.).  To me a game should always have raiding in it yet it should not just be a gear grind, or a progression affair, but a desire to see more of the story as well as world. Even though many hated them overall i had always loved the requirements, attunements, and such that had to be doen to enter places or raids as they functioned as a way of making sure people knew what was going on in the story. Though to me these thiggns should have been account-wise so that if you are bringing up a new character you could skip them if you wishedm but a up and coming guild or character that had never seen them would actually need to progress thru them to gain access to other things. Atleast for me the story of the game that is really central for me in playing has always been sacrificed for the grinding, and gear bth in pvp or in pve. Even if no gear or achievements were in a raid for me to gain, i would still run it for the story thhat is being told thru them, and just like rereading a good book i would redo them as well. The better you tell a story in a game the less need you have to entice people to run things, yet having rewards for running thigns is not evil so long as you make it secondary to the actual story and events of the content.

Well that is an opinion most of the GW2 player base does not share. Any raid content forced into a game setting will always lead to loot grinding. Attunement, tiered gear and all of that are carrots on a stick. To me it is not like reading a good book, it's like taking  a book with glass and nails glued to it, and smashing my face with it, that is what Raiding is to me. I am happy there is not chance, not chance at all of this game being a Raid loot grind. Just get used to it. For a good Raid themepark experience I advise you to go the Direction of RIFT.

Agreed, there are raiding in enough games as it is, lets try something new.

There is no feature that is a must in a MMO.

  Twistingfate

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/10
Posts: 178

1/14/12 9:34:59 PM#71

Im really excited for GW2 because of the lack of raids. I loved leveling and exploring the content in WoW/rift/many other mmo that play similiarly. My biggest problem was that I hated large raids. I didnt like feeling pointless and grinding raids over and over again. I love the focus on 5 man groups and the lack of an item treadmill. I find no joy in grinding the same boss 300 times trying to get that one piece of loot that someone else ninja loots anyways xD. Spent many joyful years in the traditional mmo. Very excited for something different. even if its not earth shatteringly different im still very happy to see a different focus :)

  Venomania

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/11
Posts: 42

1/14/12 9:46:12 PM#72

Much like most other features isn't the 'raiding' just Gw2-like. They said there is no conventional instanced raids right, that's not how GW2 works. What do we do in Raids atm? We go into an instance and fight little boss's or parts of a boss so it give the illusion it's huge. Gw2 give you, real gigantic dragons to fight, in the open world. You can get all your friends together, push the dynamic events along the track and get the mobs to spawn. [isn't this just like clearing all the trash to get to the mob, except it's all dynamic scaled and in the open world] The large number of people ups the difficulty and boosts the rewards... eh, isn't that pretty much raids are? Maybe i'm missing something. The only difference is instand of it being some imaginary instanced world where just you and your crew can interact it's in the open world. Gw2 isn't a gear focused game imo, much of the reward system is very much on looks, for me that's what I raid for now too. I like to get that new shiny set peace so people know I'm uber. The stats are merely part of the incentive. So you can still get all of that, just... you don't get the stats.

 

Not really sure why no instanced raids is an issue for some people. It's not like you don't get more epic massive boss fights, because you do. You even get them as you level up. You're not going to miss out <.<

  rykim86

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 238

1/14/12 9:55:37 PM#73

Obviously from some comments here, some people are still in the dark a bit with the dynamic event system.  Like how ArenaNet is going to have to educate most players from the classic holy trinity system to their trinity, so they will have to for grouping as well.

No traditional raiding of grouping up 10+ people to do a dungeon, but there will be plenty of dynamic event chains that will feel like a dungeon raid.  Remember they also stream line so as you progress through a certain DE, it'll chain into a bigger event.  The best things about DEs is you don't have to wait for new players.  They can join and leave whenever.  No more waiting for 5 minutes for a tank or healer.  

Just have at it.  One of my favorite parts of MMOs is just running around, coming across random areas and treading lightly at obvious danger zones.  MMOs have been lacking a sense of adventure for awhile, and GW2 looks to bring that back.

  sidhaethe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/06
Posts: 868

1/14/12 9:57:50 PM#74
Originally posted by Elricmerren

Honestly to me you do not need to have drasticaly better gear that comes from content to make it desirable to be done, which would eliimante the need for raiding gear. To me the biggest different between a raid as well as a dongeon is the depth of the story and the effect on the game setting. A dongeon normally only efects the zone you are in or has an effect in that area, but a raid  normally has effect that affect the entire world and setting (such as world bosses, or creature of vast power or importance.).  To me a game should always have raiding in it yet it should not just be a gear grind, or a progression affair, but a desire to see more of the story as well as world. Even though many hated them overall i had always loved the requirements, attunements, and such that had to be doen to enter places or raids as they functioned as a way of making sure people knew what was going on in the story. Though to me these thiggns should have been account-wise so that if you are bringing up a new character you could skip them if you wishedm but a up and coming guild or character that had never seen them would actually need to progress thru them to gain access to other things. Atleast for me the story of the game that is really central for me in playing has always been sacrificed for the grinding, and gear bth in pvp or in pve. Even if no gear or achievements were in a raid for me to gain, i would still run it for the story thhat is being told thru them, and just like rereading a good book i would redo them as well. The better you tell a story in a game the less need you have to entice people to run things, yet having rewards for running thigns is not evil so long as you make it secondary to the actual story and events of the content.

The problem with your statement above is that you are coming at it from the perspective of the story being locked behind raids/dungeons. This may be the case in other MMOs, but is NOT the case in Guild Wars 2. You have your personal storyline, which is your character's personal story, and explorable dungeons in story mode that elucidate on the secondary plot elements. Dynamic events are the overarching story of the world by zone and by area.

So if you are looking for story, no need to look farther than the personal story, and explorable dungeons (whether in story mode or explorable mode). If you are looking for large-scale challenges, elite dynamic events tell the larger story of the world out in the open.

Guild Wars 2 is built from the ground up with different motivators than many other MMOs... you have to realize this first before you approach it in the way you have above. It simply does not apply.

  Magnetia

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 978

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

1/14/12 9:58:26 PM#75

At first I thought 'No raids? What will I do endgame?' then it slowly dawned on me that Guild Wars 2's lack of raids may be contrinubted to two things.

Organizing/running a raid sucks - Sure we're all talking about raids raids but remember there has to be someone with enough game knowledge to put together a team of 25 COMPETENT people and having all of them perform at 170%. As much as I loved raids there are certain aspects of it I absolutely detested. People who didn't learn the fight, people who weren't willing to put some effort into beating a hard boss and just quit, waiting for TWO HOURS just to play and then have the entire team die in  15 seconds because someone didn't speak up about not knowing the boss mechanics. You know who you are.

 

Lack of endgame - Normally the end game is the highest tier/lvl of stuff to do but I started wondering about how GW2 endgame worked. I got bored of because WoW end game was raiding and only raiding (I didn't like WoW pvp, spoiled by GW pvp). Now not everyone is going to play in this manner but in gw2 I can imagine the entire game becoming end game because of the sidekicking and scaling of events. Instead of sacrificing resources to make very small and high tier content, Arena-net has turned raids into DE - something that just came to mind is that failing a raid boss in the world might mean a town will be crushed instead of just your party wiping in the raid instance.

edit - I forget that epic bosses are going to start appearing from lvl 1 so we're pretty set for epic boss fights.

Will I miss raids? Absolutely   Will I miss the shit that came with it? Hell No.

Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  Ephion

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 3

1/14/12 10:08:48 PM#76
Originally posted by Twistingfate

Im really excited for GW2 because of the lack of raids. I loved leveling and exploring the content in WoW/rift/many other mmo that play similiarly. My biggest problem was that I hated large raids. I didnt like feeling pointless and grinding raids over and over again. I love the focus on 5 man groups and the lack of an item treadmill. I find no joy in grinding the same boss 300 times trying to get that one piece of loot that someone else ninja loots anyways xD. Spent many joyful years in the traditional mmo. Very excited for something different. even if its not earth shatteringly different im still very happy to see a different focus :)

Well there is live event from what was shown on one of Expo presentations where large amount of players were repeling Shatterer ( main evil Dragon) attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVLclPDCBE

  User Deleted
1/14/12 10:18:27 PM#77
Originally posted by Elricmerren
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Azaria
Originally posted by Elricmerren

Honestly to me you do not need to have drasticaly better gear that comes from content to make it desirable to be done, which would eliimante the need for raiding gear. To me the biggest different between a raid as well as a dongeon is the depth of the story and the effect on the game setting. A dongeon normally only efects the zone you are in or has an effect in that area, but a raid  normally has effect that affect the entire world and setting (such as world bosses, or creature of vast power or importance.).  To me a game should always have raiding in it yet it should not just be a gear grind, or a progression affair, but a desire to see more of the story as well as world. Even though many hated them overall i had always loved the requirements, attunements, and such that had to be doen to enter places or raids as they functioned as a way of making sure people knew what was going on in the story. Though to me these thiggns should have been account-wise so that if you are bringing up a new character you could skip them if you wishedm but a up and coming guild or character that had never seen them would actually need to progress thru them to gain access to other things. Atleast for me the story of the game that is really central for me in playing has always been sacrificed for the grinding, and gear bth in pvp or in pve. Even if no gear or achievements were in a raid for me to gain, i would still run it for the story thhat is being told thru them, and just like rereading a good book i would redo them as well. The better you tell a story in a game the less need you have to entice people to run things, yet having rewards for running thigns is not evil so long as you make it secondary to the actual story and events of the content.

Well that is an opinion most of the GW2 player base does not share. Any raid content forced into a game setting will always lead to loot grinding. Attunement, tiered gear and all of that are carrots on a stick. To me it is not like reading a good book, it's like taking  a book with glass and nails glued to it, and smashing my face with it, that is what Raiding is to me. I am happy there is not chance, not chance at all of this game being a Raid loot grind. Just get used to it. For a good Raid themepark experience I advise you to go the Direction of RIFT.

Agreed, there are raiding in enough games as it is, lets try something new.

There is no feature that is a must in a MMO.

 Well it is a good thing that you opinions matter for squat, and are about as important as trash or garbage. Also take your advice and toss it into a nice pile and burn it if i wanted your opnion or advice i would give you it as you are not i portant enouph to actually have an opinon that woould matter to start off with when it comes to my view point so please shove it.

Well what does matter is the Guild Wars 2 Development team, and there is absolutlely no sign of Raiding in this game and there never will be. Not every game will have raiding thats not new at all. Some people especially the GW2 demographic are not interested in boring raid grinds or meaninless battles with 60 foot raid bosses that force the holy trinity on us and dumb scripted fights against timed monsters which are about as predictable as the boxing apponents on the Punch Out video game. Now you may wish GW2 is going to cater to you the way TOR did, but thats quite simply too bad. You want that kind of game RIFT is your best bet, at least their skill tree system isn't totally boring.

  User Deleted
1/14/12 10:22:56 PM#78
Originally posted by Magnetia

At first I thought 'No raids? What will I do endgame?' then it slowly dawned on me that Guild Wars 2's lack of raids may be contrinubted to two things.

Organizing/running a raid sucks - Sure we're all talking about raids raids but remember there has to be someone with enough game knowledge to put together a team of 25 COMPETENT people and having all of them perform at 170%. As much as I loved raids there are certain aspects of it I absolutely detested. People who didn't learn the fight, people who weren't willing to put some effort into beating a hard boss and just quit, waiting for TWO HOURS just to play and then have the entire team die in  15 seconds because someone didn't speak up about not knowing the boss mechanics. You know who you are.

 

Lack of endgame - Normally the end game is the highest tier/lvl of stuff to do but I started wondering about how GW2 endgame worked. I got bored of because WoW end game was raiding and only raiding (I didn't like WoW pvp, spoiled by GW pvp). Now not everyone is going to play in this manner but in gw2 I can imagine the entire game becoming end game because of the sidekicking and scaling of events. Instead of sacrificing resources to make very small and high tier content, Arena-net has turned raids into DE - something that just came to mind is that failing a raid boss in the world might mean a town will be crushed instead of just your party wiping in the raid instance.

edit - I forget that epic bosses are going to start appearing from lvl 1 so we're pretty set for epic boss fights.

Will I miss raids? Absolutely   Will I miss the shit that came with it? Hell No.

There is nothing new about not having raids, there was such an influx of wow clones after 2004 people who liked raids came to expect it. But there have always been mmorpgs even popular ones that either don't have raids or dont demand that you do them. This whole end game idea raiders have is just laughable to me, who wants an end game in an mmorpg unless you're dead set on killing the ultimate bad guy scripted monster at the end. It was always silly to me. If I wanted an End game I would play a console RPG.

  Kreedz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/11
Posts: 449

1/14/12 10:29:31 PM#79

Magnatia's second point is a good one.

 

Guild Wars 2 has so many handcrafted DE's, each with multiple or divergent stages in them, the effects of which can span days, weeks and perhaps even months, and because of the de-leveling (and sidekicking) a player could be doing DE's for months and not see the same event playing out, and iirc, some of those events have special/unique rewards including armor, weapons, trophies and whatever else.

 

That's a pretty solid PvE endgame in my opinion, and lets not forget that W-v-W has PvE elements in it, so even if youre not that into PvP you can still help people out in it by performing those PvE tasks.

"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

  User Deleted
1/15/12 9:16:23 AM#80

The original video brings up a lot of good reasons why there aren't raids

  • The increased time it takes to group up and find larger teams
  • Old content can be done more easily with 5 people
  • Less problems like DCs due to less people and increased communication between them
  • 5 person PVE groups easily transition to structured PVP
  • Role dilution with more people
I kind of think they missed one.  One of GW2's goals seems to be not forcing people into doing a certain thing (raiding) in order to get "the best gear".  With GW2, it'll be somewhat easy to get max stat power in your gear, and you'll be able to do it from a variety of sources.  I think they're actually trying to deemphasize "the carrot" in general, so the game becomes more about doing whatever it is you find fun with fun being the real reward.
 
If there were raids in the game, why would you subject yourself to the hassle of doing them (finding more people, having to schedule, more AFKs/DCs, more likely someone messes up) if there wasn't at least some kind of tangible reward? 
 
To me, it seems like there's a philosophical question here.  Even if the reward is just another vanity skin, doesn't that in essence become "the best gear?"  (if not from a stats standpoint, then from an elitism or desireability standpoint)
 
And if it is the case, what's the difference between the gear obtained from raiding and the gear obtained from the hardest dungeon?  In both cases it seems like it becomes a badge of honor to be able to wear gear that not everyone can obtain.
 
I don't know, I'm asking here. 
 
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