Clone gone bad.

Originally posted by Struggs

 

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Originally posted by Lidane

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Originally posted by sanosukex
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?

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That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.

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Don't say that bc now people are going to claim they work, have worked or in school for such a thing

I can claim no such thing.. all I can claim is I have been playing graphical MMOs since there first creation on the internet and used to play MUDs on BBS well before any graphical type MMO or even a web browser was ever released.. also played Gemstone III and IV for years...

Originally posted by Struggs

 

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Originally posted by Lidane

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Originally posted by sanosukex
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?

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That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.

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Don't say that bc now people are going to claim they work, have worked or in school for such a thing

The funny thing is, I have actually worked at a game studio. I also have colleagues in the game industry. I've seen first-hand what they go through when they develop games. It's not as easy as people think, and it sure as hell isn't glamorous. Those millions of dollars in budgets go for things as mundane as paying the water and electric bills, buying office supplies, and making sure that everyone in the office gets paid.  It doesn't all go into the game itself. And if a studio has multiple projects? That money gets divided up between them all.

Decisions have to be made, and sometimes things you might want just can't happen. Or they can happen, but they're going to take longer than you'd like, or than the message boards would want. That's just the way things work. It's business, and eventually, the reality of business collides with the fanboy wishes and you can't do it all at launch. 

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by mykpfsu

Originally posted by Deewe

1. Incentives for socialization-Yes, because being online chatting with a 12 year old of the opposite sex has never, ever gotten anyone into trouble.

 

 Ah, the internet... where men are men, women are men, and children are the FBI...********

You know, I'm not sure how much more incentive a player needs in an MMO other than, all the best gear being in group dungeons, social points, XP bonuses, loot bonuses, and a flat out far better chance for survival in every area of the game. 

I have to wonder if it's really about Incentives for socialization, or if it's just that they want it mandated that someone MUST group and play with them whenever they log in, because otherwise, no one wants to.

 

ZOMG that is my saying!!! I coined it dammit!!!!! I say it all the time in xxx games I play!!! If SOPA passes I will have this site taken down due to , I don';t know, somekinda of made up internet meme infringment law!!!!

What was I saying..Oh yeah.... I agree with you dude. 100% (the orange text poster)

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Originally posted by Lidane

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Originally posted by sanosukex

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Originally posted by Lidane


That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.

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the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.

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And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game.
It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.

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I was going to say give me game that has had the whole list at launch. As a matter of fact I will bet, TSW, GW2 and AA will not have this whole list either. And we will be able to put others on their list that were in other games but not in those. Yes I plan on giving all those games a go. The point is Company takes 5 years to create a game and 5 years adding new ideas to it. Doesn't mean someone can put in all the stuff it took 10 years to do in a 5-6 year span.

Now if Bioware makes MMO #2 and it has the same list of features as SW:TOR and no additions then there is something to be said.

1. Swimming - total fluff and not needed at launch. any game that has this at launch *cough*GW2*cough* is simply raising the bar IMHO... but it is NOT necessary.
2. Third party addons - some people love em... some hate em... some dont care. personally i dont care... but a happy community is a thriving community so im all for them IF it make more people happy.
3. Minigames like card games or slot gamers - again... total fluff and can be added in later updates. personally i would LOVE to go to Nar Shadda and do some gambling. but not needed at launch.
4. Dual spec - ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY... no dual spec in a modern MMO is almost unforgivable and it leads to a higher percentage of these gimped "hybrid classes" cause people just dont have the patience to run back and forth from the re-spec d00d.
5. Day/night cycles - ...meh. honestly i didnt even notice. i assumed that im traveling the galaxy... different time zones and what not...
6. Non humanoid based playable races - i know what you mean... i wish i couldve rolled a Hutt Juggernaut... would have been AWESOME!
7. Planetary housing - your ship is a house...  it's mobile... its got beds and guns... kind of like a meth dealers mobile home... what more can you ask?
8. Housing furnishing - agreed... i wish i could put a recliner in my ship like Lonestar from Spaceballs
9. Animal based pet classes - ...attack Tauntaun? yes please!
10. Resources for crafting that do have quality - crafting suck. crafting always sucks. deal with it.
11. Complex crafting system - see #10
12. Guild leveling system - couldnt care less
13. Animal mounts - in Star Wars? ...no!
14. Flying mounts - already have them... they just dont fly very high...
15. PvP Arenas - PvP in TOR is already terrible. sure! ...lets add even MORE!!
16. Collision detection between characters - this ultimately boils down to BW's lackluster combat system.
17. Macros - not necessary.
18. Barber / Image Designer - yes
19. Appearance tabs - YES!! ...and seriously... why dont we have this?
20. Fishing - see #1
21. Guild "Tabard" - ...huh?
22. Multiplayer mounts - yes
23. Gear Dyes - see #19
24. Shared storage bank slots - see #19
25. In game voice chat - the game already runs like piss... do you REALLY want to add yet another process to it?
26. LFG tool - ...meh. never use em cause i have friends.
27. Guild bank - see #19
28. Incentives for socialization - social points are already in game
29. Character extended body customization - see #19
30. 3 Factions RvR - goes back to "bad game design" ...this game has that on tap.
31. Wolrd PvP - see #15
32. RPG tools - see #19
33. Underwater content - see #1
34. 3d exploration - no idea what you mean by this...

The nonsense runs very strong in you, Lizardbones. Let my try to explain why:

2) Third Party Addons - No. Keep them out.

I understand that you are a huge fans of consoles since you obivously like to have everything dished out to you on a silver plate. However that doesnt matter that the rest of the (pc) gamers agree with you. We on the pc like to adjust games to our liking. This is normal because you play on the pc for a very good reason. You want freedom. Like I said, consoles seem to be much more to your liking. The ui is utter crap and it just has to be adjustable like it or not.

16) Collision detection between characters - No. Won't work and will cause more issues than it solves.

Seriously? So because something so vital is too hard to implent you simply leave it out ? Your logic is downright stupid. Its engine is just poorly built, deal with it.

29) Character extended body customization - ? What is this?

Try to learn english. 

17) Macros - Very simple targeting macros, or even click casting macros would be fine. Anything more complex? No.

LOL again you are so oblivious to anything more complex than a 1 button push. Are you a troll? You really want such a dumbed down game ? Stop mainstreaming (aka simplifying) my favourite genre please. It has ruined so many of my favourite games already.

12) Guild leveling system - I think a lot of people would like this - it's becoming a standard feature.

A standard feature you say? So point 18, 4, 21, 22 etc arent standard ? I dont understand you at all. I would even say that a guild leveling feature is one of the least mandatory feature of the list.

5) Day/Night cycles - not a virtual world so again, not really necessary.

Please refer to #17 

 SWTOR put all their eggs in the voice over and dialogue aspect and they have some big problemos to fix namely:

Low resolution graphics and ability delay lag issues.

Most of this stuff is going to come, you just have to be patient. Look, Trion did a remarkable job with the amount of "features" they had at launch, but they didn't have as large a world or playing area and they didn't have the Voiceovers...

Give Bioware a break, they will get all of it in at some point. Personally I am more interested to see them respond to the community's valid complaints around ability delays and the sub par graphics...

If they can knock those out of the park, they will be well on their way !

Originally posted by Struggs

 

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Originally posted by Lidane

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Originally posted by sanosukex

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Originally posted by Lidane


That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.

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the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.

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And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game.
It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.

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I was going to say give me game that has had the whole list at launch. As a matter of fact I will bet, TSW, GW2 and AA will not have this whole list either. And we will be able to put others on their list that were in other games but not in those. Yes I plan on giving all those games a go. The point is Company takes 5 years to create a game and 5 years adding new ideas to it. Doesn't mean someone can put in all the stuff it took 10 years to do in a 5-6 year span.

Now if Bioware makes MMO #2 and it has the same list of features as SW:TOR and no additions then there is something to be said.

ok but are you saying its to much to ask for a company to have maybe half of these since they have been around forever now?  Rift is a prime example of having a lot of convienence features at launch yet really didn't add a whole lot to expand the genre which cause people to get bored with the game fairly quick. Now how is this any differn't that what bioware did? expect they didn't even include many of these fluff features.. I'm fine with a company not including all these things but at least try and break the mold somewhere.. the story is fine but it's still mostly a single player affair and not going to keep players playing for years.. I followed this game for years hoping it would be released as a game people would want to play for years not a few months till the story was over then find there is nothing new much like what has happened to rift after the rifts and invasions grew stale and the pvp grind became monotomous...

Originally posted by insanejosh

Originally posted by Mellkor

 

Now about innovation may I lecture you about some of the things that are missing in TOR:

 

1. Swimming - Who really Cares? If I wanted swimming I would go to the beach or jump in the pool.
2. Third party addons - Keep on Crying - with no addons it actually makes you pay attention to the game instead of a box. I actually love there is no addons. It seperates the real gamers from the nubs
3. Minigames like card games or slot gamers - If you are that bored go read a book.
4. Dual spec - There is no need for this.
5. Day/night cycles - Look out your window
6. Non humanoid based playable races - Because everyone wants to play a droid?
7. Planetary housing -  This isn't SWG
8. Housing furnishing - This is not SWG
9. Animal based pet classes - Go Play WOW
10. Resources for crafting that do have quality - Not even going to comment
11. Complex crafting system - The kiddies can't get most crafting systems now. It will never be difficult. People will just cry
12. Guild leveling system - Go play WoW
13. Animal mounts - Go Play WoW
14. Flying mounts - Go Play WoW
15. PvP Arenas - Go Play WoW
16. Collision detection between characters - Yes because I want to run around every person I see on the fleet.
17. Macros
18. Barber / Image Designer - This is not SWG
19. Appearance tabs - Holy batman an actually real Idea. But, will never happen
20. Fishing - Nobody likes doing this in any other MMO. Why continue with such a useless skill. I would rather do the real thing.
21. Guild "Tabard" - Go Play WoW
22. Multiplayer mounts - Because the 'follow' command is so hard to use
23. Gear Dyes - Eh, Wont happen
24. Shared storage bank slots - Won't Happen
25. In game voice chat - Why so I can listen to the 10 yr olds?
26. LFG tool - Ruined WoW. NO TY
27. Guild bank - OMGAD another ok idea
28. Incentives for socialization - you quest faster if you group up. How is that not incentive?
29. Character extended body customization - Um no
30. 3 Factions RvR - I'm tired of commenting
31. Wolrd PvP - How about actually fight on Ilum instead of just turning the point. Oh hey thats right you just want to finish your daily.
32. RPG tools - This isnt SWG
33. Underwater content - Everyone I know skipped the WoW area with this. So no
34. 3d exploration - Not enough people use this. Why waste time and resources

Really? Every one of these threads i read sound like people just want world of warcraft...

 

The highlighted red text in my opionion either has

1. No place in a starwars universe

2. Sounds like it should be there just because wow has it.

 

Fully Support the Implementation of the green text,

 

 

 

I'm sorry to inform you, but this game is as close as you can get to World of Warcraft. This is obviously a clone but it failed on many of the basic features that most mmorpges consider mandatory by now.

Originally posted by sanosukex

ok but are you saying its to much to ask for a company to have maybe half of these since they have been around forever now? 

Because really, every item on that list is something that Bioware wanted for their game, or which just couldn't possibly be pushed to an expansion or free content upgrade later on.

Yes, you're asking too much. Sure, Bioware are a major studio with a series of hit games behind them, but developing an MMO is a whole new animal from developing single player games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. There's a hell of a lot more involved, and Bioware had to expand and hire and make all kinds of decisions in order to get SWTOR made. It's not as simple as looking at everything that WoW has and deciding that all of it fits SWTOR perfectly and that it all has to go in on Day 1. They needed to design and build the game and get it up and running smoothly, which they've done so far. Now, they add to what they've done and tweak and refine things. 

Maybe some of those features will go in. Maybe they won't. But to sit there and offer a list of almost 40 features that "should" be in a game at launch because other games put those features in over YEARS of expansions and additional development flies in the face of all reason. It's not as simple as all that. 

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by sanosukex

ok but are you saying its to much to ask for a company to have maybe half of these since they have been around forever now? 

Because really, every item on that list is something that Bioware wanted for their game, or which just couldn't possibly be pushed to an expansion or free content upgrade later on.

Yes, you're asking too much. Sure, Bioware are a major studio with a series of hit games behind them, but developing an MMO is a whole new animal from developing single player games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. There's a hell of a lot more involved, and Bioware had to expand and hire and make all kinds of decisions in order to get SWTOR made. It's not as simple as looking at everything that WoW has and deciding that all of it fits SWTOR perfectly and that it all has to go in on Day 1. They needed to design and build the game and get it up and running smoothly, which they've done so far. Now, they add to what they've done and tweak and refine things. 

Maybe some of those features will go in. Maybe they won't. But to sit there and offer a list of almost 40 features that "should" be in a game at launch because other games put those features in over YEARS of expansions and additional development flies in the face of all reason. It's not as simple as all that. 

wish this were true but I feel this game is going to slowly decline instead of slowly increase because many of that stuff is missing and not enough here is new enough to keep people playing for years letting them catch up to the other MMOs out there aside from the most loyal followers.. It's not like this is the only MMO out you want to design a game to keep people playing your game and not go back to whatever they were playing before. I just feel bioware is banking to much on there name and star wars IP and don't think this is going to pay off as well as I and many others were expecting.

Originally posted by sanosukex

wish this were true but I feel this game is going to slowly decline instead of slowly increase because many of that stuff is missing and not enough here is new enough to keep people playing for years letting them catch up to the other MMOs out there aside from the most loyal followers.. It's not like this is the only MMO out you want to design a game to keep people playing your game and not go back to whatever they were playing before. I just feel bioware is banking to much on there name and star wars IP and don't think this is going to pay off as well as I and many others were expecting.

Why don't we wait until the game's been out beyond its free month before we start writing its eulogy?

I don't think that anything is set in stone yet. 

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by sanosukex

wish this were true but I feel this game is going to slowly decline instead of slowly increase because many of that stuff is missing and not enough here is new enough to keep people playing for years letting them catch up to the other MMOs out there aside from the most loyal followers.. It's not like this is the only MMO out you want to design a game to keep people playing your game and not go back to whatever they were playing before. I just feel bioware is banking to much on there name and star wars IP and don't think this is going to pay off as well as I and many others were expecting.

Why don't we wait until the game's been out beyond its free month before we start writing its eulogy?

I don't think that anything is set in stone yet. 

sounds fun but what else is there to do in the mean time when you are bored and can't play at the moment.. I'd rather discuss my concerns and in tern hope to inlfuence some people to voice there concerns more on the official forums to help get the ball moving on features that I feel will help this game grow and not decline... such as the soon to come LFG tool

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Originally posted by Lidane

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Originally posted by Struggs
 

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Originally posted by Lidane

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Originally posted by sanosukex
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?

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That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.

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Don't say that bc now people are going to claim they work, have worked or in school for such a thing

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The funny thing is, I have actually worked at a game studio. I also have colleagues in the game industry. I've seen first-hand what they go through when they develop games. It's not as easy as people think, and it sure as hell isn't glamorous. Those millions of dollars in budgets go for things as mundane as paying the water and electric bills, buying office supplies, and making sure that everyone in the office gets paid.  It doesn't all go into the game itself. And if a studio has multiple projects? That money gets divided up between them all.
Decisions have to be made, and sometimes things you might want just can't happen. Or they can happen, but they're going to take longer than you'd like, or than the message boards would want. That's just the way things work. It's business, and eventually, the reality of business collides with the fanboy wishes and you can't do it all at launch. 

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Sorry I wasn't trying to say what you were saying was wrong. In fact I totally agree with what you just wrote. I was pointing out the opposite of what you are saying. People trying to tell others what they "know" Bioware could've added and how long it takes and when they should've had it implemented yada yada. That comment was more sarcasim then anything.

Originally posted by Struggs

 

Sorry I wasn't trying to say what you were saying was wrong. In fact I totally agree with what you just wrote. I was pointing out the opposite of what you are saying. People trying to tell others what they "know" Bioware could've added and how long it takes and when they should've had it implemented yada yada. That comment was more sarcasim then anything.

Oh, I know. I understood what you were saying. 

Alright, so I'm about to nitpick, but only because the idea here is so absurd- how can anyone belittle this game on the grounds that it has no swimming? More often than not, the characters in the game are wearing suits of dense metals. They're covered in electronics. How can any of you claim with a straight face that it's more realistic, immersive, or "polished" for some armored Commando to go swimming on a mission? Should he fly, too? It's absolutely unbelievable what some people will complain about.

Originally posted by Xyched

Alright, so I'm about to nitpick, but only because the idea here is so absurd- how can anyone belittle this game on the grounds that it has no swimming? More often than not, the characters in the game are wearing suits of dense metals. They're covered in electronics. How can any of you claim with a straight face that it's more realistic, immersive, or "polished" for some armored Commando to go swimming on a mission? Should he fly, too? It's absolutely unbelievable what some people will complain about.

my bounty hunter has a jetpack but can't fly like in the movies aside from a few short bursts... you REALLY don't want to get into a realism battle over first star wars and second a MMO

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by Xyched

Alright, so I'm about to nitpick, but only because the idea here is so absurd- how can anyone belittle this game on the grounds that it has no swimming? More often than not, the characters in the game are wearing suits of dense metals. They're covered in electronics. How can any of you claim with a straight face that it's more realistic, immersive, or "polished" for some armored Commando to go swimming on a mission? Should he fly, too? It's absolutely unbelievable what some people will complain about.

my bounty hunter has a jetpack but can't fly like in the movies aside from a few short bursts... you REALLY don't want to get into a realism battle over first star wars and second a MMO

The only "realism" battle that matters anymore is that one of them has the Star Wars IP license from Lucas Arts and the other one is dead and gone forever.

The rest is details.

The only thing that bothers me is the load in screens i now have a book beside my pc as i have waited for 5 mins or more on several occasions to play this. I have resubbed for 1 month down from my planned 3 months but this i suspect will kill it for me which is sad as i do enjoy it.