Bill,

Just ditch the numbers, honestly. What you're saying is that you are willing to give a game a high score regardless of how bad the bads are, just because you think it's good beyond it's faults. That's fine, but that means the score essentially has little if anything to do with the review, so why bother? The point of contention is that you list some pretty heavy negatives (to some) then follow it with a score that is like saying there weren't any to begin with, and I'm not just talking SWTOR...this kind of thing was done with many games (DCUO comes to mind).

Sometimes your scores are like those drug commercials all over TV. "Will cause heartburn, diarrhea, migrains and anal leakage, but at least you won't get preggers!"

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Let me just say that I find it very funny that I ask you to put the scores secondary to the words, and the comments quickly became all about the scores.  :)

I get your concerns folks, really I do.  But we are trying to do our best service and honest recommendations on every game we review, which means we're writing about the good and the bad equally, which makes the scores seem unjust.  That's sort of my point.  But rather than us NOT write about the bad, I'm asking you to realize that a score of 8/10 can mean a game's a lot of fun despite its faults.

Additionally, the stance we take on scoring in general is akin to a Grade Scale in any American High School.  Anything below 6 is likely considered failing, a 7 is a C, an 8 is a B, and an A (90/100+) is damned near perfect. 

Again, you may not agree with this method, but it IS how we do things and we ARE always evaluating things.

What?

So there are (1.0-6.0) six kinds of failings but only 7.0-7.9 for average, 8.0-8.9 for good and 9.0-10 for great to perfect?

I get it.

@nblitz

Welcome to the American grading system employed at EVERY school in the country.

Originally posted by SBFord

@nblitz

Welcome to the American grading system employed at EVERY school in the country.

 

Welcome to the world of captialism where money effects numbers. or in this case (grading scores).

Im going to have to agree with a number of the people who are saying that they dont get how the "numbers work" as far as gaming site reviews go. Its not a matter of understanding the system that is used but understanding why or how certain games are getting those reviews. Ive found objective player reviews for games much more accurate then gaming sites in recent years. ( as companies dump money into said gaming sites for advertising )

take this one for example : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/337702/Elikals-SWTOR-review.html 

I found it to be a very informative and decent read. It pretty much gives pros and cons in a nut shell with room for people to agree /slightly disagree in some scoring areas.

Bill, I endorse this post. :)

Cheque is in the mail!

(It's good to review one's reviewing methods every now and then. Keeps things fresh, honest and relevant.)

You aren't marking an English essay like a grade school teacher, you are rating a game. The games you are reviewing are made by professionals, not kids that need an outdated grading system to get passed through the school system like a hot potatoe.

Originally posted by SBFord

@nblitz

Welcome to the American grading system employed at EVERY school in the country.

Oh, so everybody's a winner. 

The thing is, we do have a wide range of scores late on the site.  And I feel that every score we've given in recent months has been justified by the reviewer.  The problem lies in the fact that scores ultimately remain subjective, just as the opinions contained within the written review do.

We are neither "right" nor "wrong".  But we are always honest.

Originally posted by BillMurphy

The thing is, we do have a wide range of scores late on the site.  And I feel that every score we've given in recent months has been justified by the reviewer.  The problem lies in the fact that scores ultimately remain subjective, just as the opinions contained within the written review do.

We are neither "right" nor "wrong".  But we are always honest.

 

No, the problem most folks had with your SWTOR reviews is that in reading your text we did see the positives and negatives you wrote about.

What surprised us is that after mentioning the obvious shortcomings most of you went ahead with scores like 8.7 which in your own words can be considered "almost perfect".

Call it grade inflation or whatever, but SWTOR likely deserves no more than a 7.5 to 8 in any stretch of the imagination.

Which once again brings up the issue of the failure of your grading system.  Perhaps mimicing the American grading system isn't really good for MMORPGs?  There really doesn't need to be 6 levels of failure (ok 7, because in my house, Mom always said C stood for Crummy, not satisfactory) so that the difference between success and failure is a matter of millimeters.

The 5 point system would be much better IMO, that way a title like SWTOR could have gotten a 4/5 (and been rated more consistently. (though you'd have to not fall into the temptation to rate them as 4.5 at launch trying to get them to 90%.

So we do read your text, and we do think you're trying hard to be honest, however you also tend to be a bit too forgving for some folks tastes, but like you said, that's just your opinion.

Originally posted by BillMurphy

The thing is, we do have a wide range of scores late on the site.  And I feel that every score we've given in recent months has been justified by the reviewer.  The problem lies in the fact that scores ultimately remain subjective, just as the opinions contained within the written review do.

We are neither "right" nor "wrong".  But we are always honest.

 

 

But if the scores are subjective, what's the point in using them?

Originally posted by SBFord

@nblitz

Welcome to the American grading system employed at EVERY school in the country.

And *that* right there is the reason the US has no top tier universities - o wait. :P

Honestly, though, it feels as unwieldy as the imperial measurement system. Maybe it's just because I haven't grown up with it. Or maybe it's because you guys have grown up with it that you don't realize how odd it looks.

Originally posted by Loke666

Lol, reviews in themselves are usually good but then they mess up the score.

95% of all computer games get the score between 6/10 and 10/10, if not more. Average should logically be 5.5 which for some reason is no average score but something that completely and utterly sucks.

I usually just subtract 5 and see it as out of 5 instead, it always give a pretty realistic score.

 

This is actually pretty good advice.

3.7/5....Sounds about right to me

Soooo did they write this after the backlash they received in the forums about how corrupt their scoring system is (along with all of the other sites out there) that gave the poor excuse of an mmo SWTOR an almost perfect rating or what? Is this before the review or after the review of that game? (goes and checks) yep, it has to be because of the SWTOR review response. We know it can be hard to come up with a good review but to blatently fanboi your review on such a game tells all of us that you weren't being honest. Despite all of the problems of this game NOT a single website magazine spoke about those problems or included them in their scoring, those problems were swept under the rug in EVERY review which means that either someone got paid lotsa LA money or reviewers weren't paying attention. The damage to the game reviewer community's credibility has been done, apologizing for it won't change it.

  I do not pay much attention to the score, but actually read what is written in the review.

  When I have read the pros and cons I can make up my own mind. The final score made by the reviewer may include "fluffyness" in terms of fun, aesthetics and/or love for a franchise. The eternal battle between objectivety and subjectivety (it's not bad to be subjective!) will always present itself as a problem when dealing with issues like putting a number to something that cannot quite be measured.

The very fact that you deemed it necessary to write an article asking your readers to "ignore" the score and read the words - are you kidding me?  Come on, be serious.  You know and I know that most people will look at the 8.7 and the word GREAT! as meaning just that.

Instead of writing a review that is critical and than polishing it with an total overblown, un-related score - score it honestly.

If the game is missing basic features, is buggy, and whatever...score it accordingly.

Tell you what...be more honest and upfront with your readers and they'll respect you more.  They may not all like you and hate you, but at least they'll respect you for being honest.   Besides, I can't be the only one on this website that gets hate mails - help me out here and take some of the heat off me.  :)

Beautifully stated.  This is the crux of the problem.  By saying an 8 is a B-, they're effectively saying anything below, what, a 5? is all the same.  They say they're scoring on a scale of 0-10 but only rating on a scale of 6-10 which means by default they are inflating all scores and confusing their readers.

If you have OPEN mind and can be objective its not that hard.

Also NUMBER ONE RULE never let someone review a game thats his favorite genre.

You get almost guarenteed biased review.

And dont let the hype and big budget influence your review you'll be alright.

Im prolly asking to much here right mmorpg.com staff?

---

Originally posted by Teala
The very fact that you deemed it necessary to write an article asking your readers to "ignore" the score and read the words - are you kidding me?  Come on, be serious.  You know and I know that most people will look at the 8.7 and the word GREAT! as meaning just that.
Instead of writing a review that is critical and than polishing it with an total overblown, un-related score - score it honestly.
If the game is missing basic features, is buggy, and whatever...score it accordingly.
Tell you what...be more honest and upfront with your readers and they'll respect you more.  They may not all like you and hate you, but at least they'll respect you for being honest.   Besides, I can't be the only one on this website that gets hate mails - help me out here and take some of the heat off me.  :)

---

Behonest and dont flip flap around themepark-sandbox-themepark-sandbox then hate mails(all tho i agree should not happen whatever opinion you have its stilla free country right?, there losers who sent them)stop, its simple like that. Analyse yourself be open and objective then see what you all write here on forum then it prolly solve it self hehe.

I think the 10 point system is fine, it is how it is being used that is not fine.   You shoud remove a point if the game is missing basic MMO features or mechanics.  You shoud remove a point if it has bad features.  You should remove a point if the  game is buggy.  That right there means that a game like SWTOR would have gotten a 7/10 from the start.

Unfortunately, I do not think anyone will do that except some of us.  I do not have anything to lose by scoring a game a 5/10, a website like this that is run on advertising dollars - it can have an impact.

Who is going to advertise with a website if their game is not given a decent review?  Not many.

So places like MMORPG.com are between a rock and a hard place.   So who can  blame them?

The only way a website like MMORPG.com could hand out reviews that give games proper scores would be for them to go as a paid service.  That isn't going to work because nobody is going to pay to see reviews or use a website like this.  Where does that leave us gamers who read reviews?

Personally I am more likely to take a players review, that isn't paid to write reviews, over someone that is paid.   ::shrugs::

Again that leaves MMORPG.com between a rock and a hard place.

You know, I am rambling here, and I am not sure there is a clean solution to this whrere everyone can win.   This sorta sucks now doesn't it?   :(

I just wish for once we'd see a paid review write a proper review and score a game accordingly.   I wonder what  the game industry would do if reviews started actually scoring games appropriately.  Imagine if all the "official" game websites scored SWTOR a 6/10 or a 7/10.   I bet Bioware would be scrambling to fix their game like no tomorrow.

I like the idea of moving the scores to the end.  I was actually thinking that as I read the article before I got to where you said it.

For a large fraction of games, a good review should simultaneously convince some readers that they should try the game, and other readers that they should not try the game.  (I only say a large fraction of games and not all games, because some gamse are truly awful.)  If the focus is on 10/10 or 6/10, then you can't do that.  If the focus is on saying things that are true about the game and not true about most other games, then that's a lot more useful.  A review that says "this game does X" can make some people think "I like games that do X" and others think "I don't like games that do X".