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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Okay I get it now....

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55 posts found
  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

1/08/12 7:16:48 PM#21

For those of you who still doubt Guild Wars 2's non-trinity system and still believe that you'll be able to take your Plate Armoured Warrior, with a Sword & Shield, into a Dungeon and effectively tank. Well why don't you read this quote from someone who's actually played and completed the 1st dungeon in GW2, in Explorable mode...

(source)

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmon View Post
Thats simple. One guardian with all defensive or tank type powers. One water elemental with healing type powers. The rest some reasonable mix of melee and ranged dps.

PS: I refuse to believe in this no-trinity business till I actually play it.

I'm going to copy/paste a response I gave in another thread regarding this point. Some of you may have seen/read this stuff before.

Roles are certainly present, but stop using the terms "tank" and "healer" when talking about roles for GW2 combat. These terms, as they are widely used and known, are inexact parallels when trying to describe the roles of GW2 group combat. There is no "tank". There is no "healer". It is "support" and "control". No, "support" does not mean "healing". "Support" means "support," which encompasses a wide variety of dmg mitigating skills, from minor heals (not full fledged "I'll heal while you tank" heals) to incoming damage reduction, to damage absorption, to health boons etc. "Control" is damage avoidance through the use of tactics. Traps, stuns, slows, knock-backs etc. None of these skills are so strong as to allow someone to take on traditional roles of "tank" or "healer." If I could, I would underline that last sentence a bajillion times. If you gotta health problem, then it's your problem. (#6 on your keyboard is your friend. Use it!).

The dungeons are not completed in the traditional manner (e.g.: tank runs in, holds aggro, healer heals and dps do damage). Put this style out of your mind, ok? I'm talking blank slate here. The structure and tactics of combat in dungeons will be dynamic. Meaning, how you play each dungeon will be completely different based on the profession combination you go into it with. No, you don't need a warrior, or a guardian, or a necromancer, or an elementalist. 5 thieves could get the job done just as effectively as any other combo. But if you go into a dungeon under the pretense of having someone "tank" while you "heal", well then... you're setting yourself up for failure. The combat in Guild Wars 2 just doesn't work like that.

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

1/08/12 7:23:30 PM#22

If my last post wasn't enough, then here's an example of your typical trash pull in Guild Wars 2. You know, the kind where a tank and mindlessly jump in, faceroll their AOE taunts and aggro generatiing skills, whilst the DPS pew pews away and the healer heals...

Gotta love having these post bookmarked for such an occasion ^_^ (source)


My party consisted of a warrior (me), 2 eles (my brother and a dev from content design), a guardian and an engineer (both played by 2 more devs from content design). We came upon a room filled with little spiders. And these weren't just any little spiders. They were vicious little shits, let me tell you. Anyway, we rolled up to a ledge that was raised up above the room where the spiders were located, with a staircase that led down to them. I had my long bow equipped, so I fired an explosive arrow down on them and they all came swarming toward us. Before we could even come up with a strategy, they swarmed and completely annihilated us. After rez'ing back up, we went to that ledge again but discussed a strat this time.

The strat discussions we had was not so much, "you do/be this or that" but rather, "Hey, I have this ability. I'll throw this down after you do that thing you said you could do." Obviously we needed a tactic that would involve killing them before they reached us, since we had discovered (the hard way) that taking them head on was suicide. So, just as I fire my AoE explosive arrow to get their attention, the engineer throws down a sticky grenade of some kind on the ground in front of the stairs. As they swarm toward us they all got slowed in the sticky goo and we started lighting them up. The 2 ele's were dropping meteor showers, I was using my rain of arrows, and the engineer sat just out of their reach, using his flamethrower. The guardian stood side by side with the engineer, holding a torch in his offhand blowing awesome blue flames at them. Then as the goo let up, the guardian threw down his barrier at the base of the steps, stopping the spiders in their tracks as we continued firing down range at them. Just as they closed in on us, I threw down my elite banner and sent them all flying back down the stairs. At that point the sticky grenade was back up and they got slowed just as we finished them off.

An important note: If any or all of us attempted to "tank" that... failure my friend. Failure.

When the little spiders were cleaned out, the big spider boss showed up. Our first time fighting it, the guardian and I both went running in. Squash... it one-shot me. Then it turned to the guardian and one-shot him. One of the devs who designed the dungeon was standing over my shoulder and goes... "uhh... ya, you don't wanna be in melee range of that guy." So we changed our strat completely. It was all about using ranged abilities and continually dodging out of the spider boss' poison spit that it kept spitting ALLL over the room.

Honestly, it was so much fun! Knowing that every fight was NOT going to follow the defunct and boring structure of tank/heal/dps made every step forward an exciting adventure of tactical discovery.

  Pocahinha

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/09
Posts: 570

1/08/12 7:29:29 PM#23
Originally posted by Zecktorin

After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)

QFT

  fony

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 799

1/08/12 7:30:48 PM#24

lol, i told you not to bother. do you understand that the people still saying this already know different, they're simply being contrarion out of bias? they don't really want to like this game, and they don't care what they have to post in order to tear it down. 

 

one would argue it's karma for the "hate" of a certain other game, except almost everything negative i have seen posted about that game is actually true.

 

there's no point in explaining the lack of trinity or aggro anymore. every user on this site has seen your posts 100 times over, and i'm guessing a good chunk of the lurkers who aren't signed up as well.

  Bunks

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 987

1/08/12 7:47:28 PM#25

The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

  bookworm438

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/20/10
Posts: 649

1/08/12 8:00:35 PM#26

Read what master10k wrote! It's a great example of the system. Forget about the traditional sense of "tank". No profession can actually "tank" like you can in say WoW. You. Will. Die. Have I made that clear. I will say it again for extra clarity you willl die. While it's true, there are more tankier professions (like the warrior, NOT THE GUARDIAN!), they just can't take the damage people are use to taking in other MMOs.

Rather, you "tank" in a different way. This way is, you CONTROL the mob/boss/whatever. You use stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, daze, etc. You may have all 5 people just juggling the mob back and forth until it's down. EVERY profession is capable of controlling the mob, not tanking it in the traditional sense, controlling it. Elementalist may snare it, warrior may knock it down, etc.

While doing this, EVERYONE needs to be paying attention to their environment. It's exactly what Anet wants you to do, PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME, not the UI. If you see an ele lay down a wall of fire, or a necro lay down a poison cloud, don't just stand there out of the way of it. Use it to your advantage! Use the field to add extra damage to your attacks.

While doing this, everyone needs to be paying attention to their teammates. If one teammate is struggling remaining alive, someone needs to step up and find a way to help. There are no ally targetted heals. Or if one teammate goes down, it's not the end of the world. A couple people distract the boss/mob, while someone rallies the teammate.

 

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

1/08/12 8:00:42 PM#27
Originally posted by Bunks

The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

Yeah, I'm glad that I only got really into these silly MMO combat mechanics with Rift. So it will be much easily for me to adapt, since playing GW2 will be like playing my other co-op games, not these generic MMORPGs.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

1/08/12 8:15:58 PM#28
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by Bunks

The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

Yeah, I'm glad that I only got really into these silly MMO combat mechanics with Rift. So it will be much easily for me to adapt, since playing GW2 will be like playing my other co-op games, not these generic MMORPGs.

I really don't think it should be that hard for people to adapt if they ever played any other kind of multiplayer game.  I can go from playing Rift to playing BF3 without any issues.

To be honest, I think people are just fishing for arguments.  I can understand that some people LIKE the trinity system and may not like that GW2 doesn't have it. 

But I don't think that the vast majority of people are to stupid to understand a non-trinity system.  And this tends to be where these arguments go.  "No one will get it if it's not the trinity!"

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Bunks

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 987

1/08/12 8:23:21 PM#29
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by Bunks

The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

Yeah, I'm glad that I only got really into these silly MMO combat mechanics with Rift. So it will be much easily for me to adapt, since playing GW2 will be like playing my other co-op games, not these generic MMORPGs.

I really don't think it should be that hard for people to adapt if they ever played any other kind of multiplayer game.  I can go from playing Rift to playing BF3 without any issues.

To be honest, I think people are just fishing for arguments.  I can understand that some people LIKE the trinity system and may not like that GW2 doesn't have it. 

But I don't think that the vast majority of people are to stupid to understand a non-trinity system.  And this tends to be where these arguments go.  "No one will get it if it's not the trinity!"

At first, I thought the non trinity system would drive away a few players. There are some who really only wish to be a healer. But overall I think you are right, a few dozen wipes should cure all the trinity zealots of their religiousity rather quickly.

  Zecktorin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/11
Posts: 235

 
OP  1/08/12 8:38:52 PM#30
Originally posted by Requiamer

 



Originally posted by Zecktorin
After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)


 

They are a lot of mmo that don't have dedicated healer or tank. IF you can't really grasp how it can work just think about all the player vs player type of computer games; like fps or rts or whatever rpg coop games around. You really don't need dps/healer/tank trilogy to make combat and group combat interesting, its clearly not needed at all. Its just a way to do it, that's all. You can always try those non trinity mmo like Uo for example.
 
What i don't understand is how some people cannot even visualize non trinity combat. I mean not a single coop computer games work with some kind of trilogy. Is it like a kind of religion i'm not aware of or something? I don't say that to offend you, but really i'm not sure if i'm serious or not here, it's just weird at this point how many people have asked the same question.

A very large majority of multiplayer games never ever had trinity. How can it be weird to some people is beyond me.

I never said I didn't unserstand teh system lol... just that I like my MMO with dps/tank/heal classes... 0.o I mean only game I played that didn't have this was EvE but a system like that wouldn't work for EvE...

  User Deleted
1/08/12 8:41:36 PM#31

I think the way you have to think of it is that players don't have roles.  Unlike a holy trinity game, the tank doesn't generate aggro and the dps try to do as much dps as they can without going over.  Mob aggro, as was pointed out earlier, can vary based on a lot of things, one of the main ones is proximity.  It's not which player is the tank, it's who is the enemy attacking at this moment?

Unlike a holy trinity game where everybody has certain jobs, instead think about the 5 classes you have in the dungeon and how you can combine your skills to beat an encounter.  Maybe everybody takes control skills.  Maybe nobody does.  Maybe one person specs that way for the most part, but then someone else takes a single utility control skill because that's the amount needed to bail that other guy out of trouble.  Maybe someone takes a warhorn that they only swap to in order to give the party swiftness.  Maybe they take a mace/shield that they only switch to if that other guy dies.  Maybe a warrior takes a shield to one fight because shield stance is important, but maybe someone else specs for control the next fight because it really needs an aoe cripple that they have.

You have so many options.  I think it's going to help with replayability a lot, such as taking the 5 thieves into a dungeon just to see what crazy stuff you have to do differently now that you don't have a balanced group to rely on.

  Kreedz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/11
Posts: 445

1/08/12 9:00:20 PM#32

The whole point of the combat in GW2 is to -AVOID- damage, not take it in the face then heal through it.

Your survivability will depend on how you play, not on your 'spec'.

Every class gets a heal ability, some can even get two at a time, but these healing spells arent designed to be relied upon and if you try to heal traditionally with them you'll find you will run out of energy very fast and leave you very vulnerable.

The idea is that skill will determine your effectiveness in combat, Dodge is there to help you avoid damage, and the healing spells are there as a minor forgiving ability if you messed up.

"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

  Veldara

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/11
Posts: 29

1/08/12 9:39:38 PM#33
Originally posted by Kreedz

The whole point of the combat in GW2 is to -AVOID- damage, not take it in the face then heal through it.

Your survivability will depend on how you play, not on your 'spec'.

Every class gets a heal ability, some can even get two at a time, but these healing spells arent designed to be relied upon and if you try to heal traditionally with them you'll find you will run out of energy very fast and leave you very vulnerable.

The idea is that skill will determine your effectiveness in combat, Dodge is there to help you avoid damage, and the healing spells are there as a minor forgiving ability if you messed up.

This ^

 

For those that have only played only MMOs with the old EQ style gameplay this game is much much more different.  Don't think of GW2 as an MMO like in the past and see it more of an AMMO (Action MMO).  This game has dodging, your actions don't force you to stay still and cast, it's fast paced and the action is intense.  

  Zeroxin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2504

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

1/08/12 10:48:34 PM#34

Offtopic;

Zecktorin looks like Zeroxin if you're glancing through the pages. Thou must changeth thy name so as to not confuse other glancers within this forum that you are me and I am you.

 

ON topic;

The Beauty of GW2 is that, like GW1, the rock-paper-scissors is all in the skills rather than the role or the class.

This is not a game.

  User Deleted
1/08/12 11:58:08 PM#35

Actually, the Trinity System is the exception to the rule. Id say 99% of all multiplayer games that Ive played did not use it. Trinity is a forced group mechanic that allows for a different type of specialized group play. Trinity or not doesn't matter. There are bad examples of both types of systems in many games. But Im pretty confident that Anet knows what they are doing so it should be fun to get our hands on it.

  User Deleted
1/09/12 12:01:58 AM#36
Originally posted by DannyGlover

Actually, the Trinity System is the exception to the rule. Id say 99% of all multiplayer games that Ive played did not use it. Trinity is a forced group mechanic that allows for a different type of specialized group play. Trinity or not doesn't matter. There are bad examples of both types of systems in many games. But Im pretty confident that Anet knows what they are doing so it should be fun to get our hands on it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/getbonkd/videos

oh they definitely DO know what they are doing. I love how each and every class can be dps, or support. I love how as an engineer i can run around throwing grenades setting mine traps that explode in unison and throw potions that can AOE heal. It's going to be awesome!

  User Deleted
1/09/12 12:03:08 AM#37
  User Deleted
1/09/12 12:11:05 AM#38
Originally posted by Requiamer

 



Originally posted by Zecktorin
After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. :)


 

They are a lot of mmo that don't have dedicated healer or tank. IF you can't really grasp how it can work just think about all the player vs player type of computer games; like fps or rts or whatever rpg coop games around. You really don't need dps/healer/tank trilogy to make combat and group combat interesting, its clearly not needed at all. Its just a way to do it, that's all. You can always try those non trinity mmo like Uo for example.
 
What i don't understand is how some people cannot even visualize non trinity combat. I mean not a single coop computer games work with some kind of trilogy. Is it like a kind of religion i'm not aware of or something? I don't say that to offend you, but really i'm not sure if i'm serious or not here, it's just weird at this point how many people have asked the same question.

A very large majority of multiplayer games never ever had trinity. How can it be weird to some people is beyond me.

Yea THIS!

 

You never see certain structures of the trinity in solo games, PvP games, FPS games and so on.  Its not hard IMO to visualize not having a tank for an example to soak damage when each player can easily takes turn.  Or not having a healer since its up to each individual to look out for their own being, its sort of like a glorified PUG setting.

  Enok4Twunni

Novice Member

Joined: 5/30/11
Posts: 214

1/09/12 12:16:03 AM#39
Originally posted by Bunks

The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.

I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre.  Amen to that!

Only reason I'm quoting this is because the original Operation Flashpoint was amazing and I miss those kind of tactics in games. Now in reference to this thread, I don't doubt that a lot of players will continue to play the holy trinity way in GW 2, but you're not forced to in this game. I know technically you're not always forced to in other games, but the fact that an Elementalist could survive aggro from a boss is pretty impressive given that in most other games you'd get one shot. I will probably play Guardian and play a tank style, not because I'm forced to, but rather because I'd like to. Can we get ANet to bring back the original Operation Flashpoint ideas and have a team of devs with common sense give us a real tactical shooter? Am I asking too much to want people with common sense to revive one of the greatest shooters ever? Bohemia couldn't nor could Codemasters. Can't wait for GW 2.

  Chelmo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/04
Posts: 17

1/09/12 1:29:09 AM#40

As others have said there's no dedicated healing, all self healing with AoE ground heals that CAN be done, but don't expect them to keep you alive, they're more like a buffer. Also, there are NO TAUNTS in the game, you cannot go up to a mob or group of mobs and get them to stick only to you, they WILL change targets based on many different variables and it is up to everyone to control them. The key is to NOT TAKE DAMAGE at all, you want to avoid damage, not mitigate it.

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