i despise quest driven xp so much.  it feels like the most tedious grind imagineable.  I never feel myself get stronger, and so little of it actually matters in any way. 

Someone just remake ffxi already so i can start having fun in a mmo again :(

Originally posted by Skranken

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

I've come to the conclusion that what many people call "grinding" is what I call "playing the game".

Same here.

If thats the case I love games where you need to "grind" your way to the top like Anarchy Online and Everquest.

QFT

What i miss most is the community back then i know you had also assholes but still it was alot and i mean ALOT better then these days.

Originally posted by Dewm

<bunch of trollage>

kthnxby 

The McD's argument is flawed because MMORPGs charge the same price.

If a bunch of restaurants charged 14.99 a month for unlimited access to their food, and customers overwhelmingly chose one restaurant over the others, that's definitely not the same as why people choose McDonalds (cheap food).

McD's would be if players were overwhelmingly choosing some F2P MMORPG based on price alone (even knowing that it was a worse MMORPG.)

In this analogy, the leading restaurant's success is based on streamlining the dining experience, by eliminating the various types of line-waiting that existed in other restaurants, in addition to higher quality food.

I have to wonder.  Was it that the games were really all that diffrent in terms of grind?  I mean people do make a valid point...its all a form of grinding if you dont enjoy it right?

Perhaps the problem is that mmorpgs have become a mad dash to endgame, making the journey a tedious obstical blocking people from being at endgame and raiding and doing the same battlegrounds over and over that they did at level 10 (lol).

I think the biggest flaw in the wow arch-type is the mad dash enducing engame hype.  I dont recall ever rushing in the older mmorpgs.  Hell, i remember not even caring or noticing what level i was in anarchy online, but then that was perhaps a diffrent game all together.

Regardless...my opinion...its the rush to endgame thats killed the game.  People just dont enjoy playing to progress and socialize.  Its now all business...level as fast as possible. 

I recall recently seeing a pug group member type " did we have to kill these mobs?" when running a dungeon.  Its that mentality i cant stand...no we didnt but i did because it was fun.  That guy ended up leaving since we were wasting time by the way...left us all there before we finished since we were pulling mobs we could have run past.

Theres got to be a way to brainwash these kids into enjoying the game simply by playing it, rather than achieving endgame as fast as possible then getting bored in a month and hopping to the next one (or re rolling and racing again..on top of endlessly running the same instances over and over again at endgame)....why is endgame so fun again..seems the most repetative part of themeparks...

Originally posted by kishe

Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

 

 

 

BAD old times. I am glad that will never return. It is mind numbingly boring to camp & kill the SAME mobs again and again till the next level.

Questing .. at least you get to see different scenary. Plus, you can always run instance dungeons to level in WOW, which you cannot do in the "bad old days" of EQ.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Dewm

kthnxby 

The McD's argument is flawed because MMORPGs charge the same price.

If a bunch of restaurants charged 14.99 a month for unlimited access to their food, and customers overwhelmingly chose one restaurant over the others, that's definitely not the same as why people choose McDonalds (cheap food).

McD's would be if players were overwhelmingly choosing some F2P MMORPG based on price alone (even knowing that it was a worse MMORPG.)

In this analogy, the leading restaurant's success is based on streamlining the dining experience, by eliminating the various types of line-waiting that existed in other restaurants, in addition to higher quality food.

You obviously didnt' read my post. if you take the "McD's" arguement and make the TIME the "currency" then diffrent MMO's charge diffrent prices.

Example 34: FFXI takes 20 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 3 hours to level...total time: 3.5hrs

WoW takes, 2 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 10 minutes to level...total time: 22min

Time = money

Wow (22min) is cheaper (cost less) then FFXI(3.5hrs)

More people play wow because it takes less time and because their friends play....not because its "more fun"

Originally posted by Dewm

 You obviously didnt' read my post. if you take the "McD's" arguement and make the TIME the "currency" then diffrent MMO's charge diffrent prices.

Example 34: FFXI takes 20 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 3 hours to level...total time: 3.5hrs

WoW takes, 2 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 10 minutes to level...total time: 22min

 Time = money

Wow (22min) is cheaper (cost less) then FFXI(3.5hrs)

 More people play wow because it takes less time and because their friends play....not because its "more fun"

Putting aside the fact that your argument is completely nonsensical, WOW charged me 6 years of time because it was fun and rapidly got me from fun thing A to fun thing B, whereas FFX charged me 30 minutes of time because the UI/controls were terrible and it felt grindy even at the start.  So I guess the actual price being paid is quite a bit higher in WOW.

In reality, all people care about is return on investment -- invest x time, get y fun.   If the ratio is terrible, players aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments to be had.

In short, they're only going to "pay" (in time) for the games they perceive as worthwhile.

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by 77lolmac77

Originally posted by kishe

Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

 

 

 

Pretty sure in green would be described as grinding?

There is no definition of grinding.

 

To one person doing dozens of kill / bring x quests would be grind and to other it would not.

To one person killing mobs for xp would be grind and to other it would not.

To one person doing same dungeon(s) over and over to get enough tokens would be a grind and to other it would not.

To one person crafting would be a grind and to other it would not.

etc,

 

You get the point?

TIME SINK!

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Dewm

 You obviously didnt' read my post. if you take the "McD's" arguement and make the TIME the "currency" then diffrent MMO's charge diffrent prices.

Example 34: FFXI takes 20 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 3 hours to level...total time: 3.5hrs

WoW takes, 2 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 10 minutes to level...total time: 22min

 Time = money

Wow (22min) is cheaper (cost less) then FFXI(3.5hrs)

 More people play wow because it takes less time and because their friends play....not because its "more fun"

Putting aside the fact that your argument is completely nonsensical, WOW charged me 6 years of time because it was fun and rapidly got me from fun thing A to fun thing B, whereas FFX charged me 30 minutes of time because the UI/controls were terrible and it felt grindy even at the start.  So I guess the actual price being paid is quite a bit higher in WOW.

In reality, all people care about is return on investment -- invest x time, get y fun.   If the ratio is terrible, players aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments to be had.

In short, they're only going to "pay" (in time) for the games they perceive as worthwhile.

Wanna talk nonsensical argument.... you start posting your own expeirence in a game...so now that we are totaly throwing facts out the window.

I played FFXI for 2.5 years...AND LOVED IT. best MMO I"VE ever played... PERIOD!

WoW...I played for 2 months...burned through 90% of the content and quit...

and your "in reality, all peopel care about is return on investment.." so what you are saying is every single person out there that says "Oh I didn't like old games because it took me 3 hours to party, and I don't have for that." is full of it?

They "aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments"?

Pretty much what you are saying to me is...

WoW + 10milliion players = fun

McDonalds models doesn't work because time investment has nothing to do with a game popularity....

So your saying a player base has nothing to do with time investment... So IF someone made a game that took 4 hours to find a party, but it was "as much fun as WoW" it would still have 10million subs?

You leaves so many flaws in your argument I don't even know were to start...

Originally posted by kishe

Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

 

 

 

I some way i agree with you.

I bealive games dont need to be only "grinding" mobs or only "grinding" quests.

Someone allready mentioned that quest should never be in chain mode, i agree 100%, grouping is much more dificult this way. Chain quests means solo adventure.

I like games where have zones for group "grinding" and some zones for solo "grinding" (ofc group zones gives much more xp), both in open world, no instance plz.

I like group quests where involves killing some harder mobs (and can be daylies).

After a few years in a quest grinding games, i start feeling the need to back to L2, because is where i found real comunity sense, its where i feel a living virtual world and every day i have to deal with diferent situations involving other players. It could be better?oh yes it could, but theres nothing better yet in the market for me.

But mmorpg market involves billions and billions, so we will keep see alot of new devs trying entering on this market, and i have hopes  one day some new devs will make a great game, imo ofc, because allready have low hopes for the existence "BIG" companys around.

Originally posted by Dewm

and your "in reality, all peopel care about is return on investment.." so what you are saying is every single person out there that says "Oh I didn't like old games because it took me 3 hours to party, and I don't have for that." is full of it?

They "aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments"? 

Pretty much what you are saying to me is...

WoW + 10milliion players = fun

McDonalds models doesn't work because time investment has nothing to do with a game popularity....

So your saying a player base has nothing to do with time investment... So IF someone made a game that took 4 hours to find a party, but it was "as much fun as WoW" it would still have 10million subs?

You leaves so many flaws in your argument I don't even know were to start...

This is very simple: if a game requires more time of players without providing more fun, players perceive the game as "less fun".

To use your version of the restaurant analogy, large-timesink MMORPGs are a $60 gourmet steak burger -- the exact same steak burger you can get for $12 in WOW.

If doing anything (finding a party or whatever) in an MMORPG arbitrarily takes more time in one game -- without being considerably more fun -- that game is just outright a worse game.

This is why the players complaining about the "race to endgame" make no sense.  They seem to be asking for leveling times to arbitrarily be increased without any other improvements -- as if the game would magically be more fun if all a developer did was make it take 5x as long to level.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by Dewm

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Originally posted by dlld
There's really nothing stopping people from doing such, it's clear "questing" is a superior way of levelingin terms of enjoyment for the vast vast majority of people.

---

how is it clear?
I'm not trying to argue....i'm just wondering? is there some awesome study that I havn't heard of that proves this?

---

10,000,000+ WoW subscribers voting with their pocket books?

 

 People need to actually understand why WoW has so many people, the main reason WoW has so many Subs is cause it is EASY, very easy really, and anyone can play it so they have a big player pool, 5 year olds could play WoW. My 7 year old nephew and his friends play WoW end-game on a 6 year old computer without any lag, and when i played i could raid with a couple add-ons and 2 macros while watching TV and eating and still be top 3 dps.  That is the point of missing old school play, you use to achieve something when you leveled up or killed a boss, now it is just instant gratification, in WoW you don't even need a skilled raid to kill end-game bosses, you can just throw together a bunch of noobs in town you never seen before and kill raid bosses, Wow and new games like it are no-skill required anymore, its all about instant gratification nowadays. EQ is one of the greatest games i ever played and would still be playing if i didn't retire from it 5 years ago and mis so many expansions.

Originally posted by Disdena

I agree with the OP. If the combat is fun, I would much rather spend 2 hours of constant combat in a group—even fighting exactly the same enemies from the same camp over and over—rather than be shuttled here and there among quest hubs to do 3 minutes of fighting before being ushered on to the next enemy type. And if the combat isn't particularly fun, I'd still rather be in a static stationary camp because it's conducive to social interaction. I do hope that at some point a retro game like that comes along.

I also agree with the OP and a lot of other posts. I cant stand being a little errand boy run around and do quests in zone A, then get sent to zoneB,C,D etc etc. I loved XI got into a group go do whatever you wanted to. theres no freedom of choice anymore. I just dont find being a little gopher fun in my mmo's. I think my head will explode in a firey rage if I have to deliver 1 more letter across town, or go kill 10 of "X" or gather 15 of "Y"

Originally posted by kishe

Good ol' times, I'd just go to zone around my level range, shout "XXX looking for XP group" get invite and start killing stuff while chatting away with rest of the group and having a laugh, It was far less grindy and tedious than running to town, picking up 12 quests, running across the map to do the 12 quests, running back to town to return the quests, running around town to find new 12 quests...etc etc.

Only social aspect left on MMOs are raids and even so, game after game reduces the amount of people you can bring to raid and reduces the amount of people you see in same zone with you...if same development continues, soon all MMOs will remind us of "Progressquest" where you just pressed a button and watched the game play itself for you (http://progressquest.com/)

 

 

 

i think what you mean is that when you go to town you have to consider what quests others have, since they are the main source of experience...

the problem with that is that there are so many variables in this.

people are sort of discouraged to grind mobs even if that means just partying along with your friends that didnt do 10 quests that you did even tho they are like only 1 level lower.

early level quests? not many people are doing them in groups as far as ive seen.

in world of warcraft for example people would rush to whatever level solo, because simply - there was no benefit to group other than the social aspect. in fact you could level faster solo.

so basically:

older mmos: more grindy gameplay which is actually less boring, because your mind process is different : 'i have to find a group'. thus the task becomes the secondary thing (the grind itself), and there is more focus on the primary thing (grouping and socialising). you had to make the 'mmo' part happen., one way or another pretty much.

new mmos: the task is more important. the reward, the exp. everyone want epic loot, fame and glory. you are not required to play mmo part, so if you dont care you can just ignore it. people are looking forward to epic loot that late game gives them, not the actual new possibilities of multiplayer. even if they want to experience those, by the time they are end game, they will be brainwashed to just want epic loot instead.

so new mmos basically get those very nice grouping tools and such which would have been insanely useful for the older ones.

however there is this taint called CASUAL SOLO GAMER that makes those great grouping possibilities quite useless.

the mmo which allows to solo everything, most likely kill a lot of their community building potential.

Originally posted by toddzeI think my head will explode in a firey rage if I have to deliver 1 more letter across town, or go kill 10 of "X" or gather 15 of "Y"

well you might want to stop playing MMOs then

or rather stop playing rpgs in general

try sticking to japanese visual novels

Originally posted by Sepulcher

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by Dewm

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Originally posted by dlld
There's really nothing stopping people from doing such, it's clear "questing" is a superior way of levelingin terms of enjoyment for the vast vast majority of people.

---

how is it clear?
I'm not trying to argue....i'm just wondering? is there some awesome study that I havn't heard of that proves this?

---

10,000,000+ WoW subscribers voting with their pocket books?

 

This old adage that because WoW has 10million players makes it MORE fun then any other game is just stupid. First off I like WoW...its a decent game for what it is. I am not a "wow-hater" BUT having said that....

Just because McDonalds outsellfs a 5star resterant doesn't make it better food.

Just because more people play WOW then play Risk, doesn't make Risk not as much fun..

 

Thats like saying, more people have seen the grandcanyon, then have been to the moon.....does that mean the grandcanyon is a better view? no...deffinitly not.

 

That comparisson does not work.  So please stop using it.

The day a McDonalds cheeseburger costs the same price as a steak give me a call.

You are comparing two things with unequal value.

Now compare the local restaraunt that has been around for 7 years with the new restaraunt that just opened up.  You only have enough money to go out to eat once a month.  On the one hand you have a restaraunt that has been around for a while, has evolved its menu to fit the demands of the customers and has reliable service and is clean.  Now on the other hand you have a new restaraunt with its new cuisine, but maybe the menu is missing some of those favorites you were hoping for, maybe the waiter is new and gets some of the orders mixed up, and maybe the place isn't as friendly as the old place.

10 million players have chosen to enjoy the menu that has evolved to fit their tastes, with reliable service, and a well polished place to enjoy it.  They may be eating the same food, but they are enoying it,  have many friends who eat there too that they can sit and have dinner with, and they are comfortable knowing that tomorrow the restaraunt will still be there and still serve their favorites.

Stop acting like everyone who plays wow is some bottom feeding moron who is being zombified into playing a shitty game because they are hopelessly addicted.

Risk may suck to many people so it being fun is not definitive.

Someone may find the view of the Grand Canyon with its many colors, winding waters, and wildlife more appealing than a grey rock floating in a black void with white dots in the sky.

It is all subjective and your opinion isn't the one in which the world runs itself.

The anaolgy is fine, don't be so narrow minded.     The price of a cheeseburger compared to a steak is irrelevant.    Think of the amount of time you spend eating instead.

So if 10 million people spend 1 hour eating McDonald's per week it doesn't make the food better than 1000 people spending 1 hour dining on a good steak.

WoW player are not bottom feeding morons, but they are spending time playing a game that prides itself on making it as easy as possible, requiring as little effort as possible, as little attention as possible, with as little challenege as possible. 

It is like being an adult and arguing that playing tic-tac-toe is a better game than chess.   You can still have fun playing tic-tac-toe but you have no basis to proclaim it being some amazing game.    

In case you forgot:

game/gam/

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Dewm

 You obviously didnt' read my post. if you take the "McD's" arguement and make the TIME the "currency" then diffrent MMO's charge diffrent prices.

Example 34: FFXI takes 20 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 3 hours to level...total time: 3.5hrs

WoW takes, 2 minutes to get to location, 10 minutes to find group, 10 minutes to level...total time: 22min

 Time = money

Wow (22min) is cheaper (cost less) then FFXI(3.5hrs)

 More people play wow because it takes less time and because their friends play....not because its "more fun"

Putting aside the fact that your argument is completely nonsensical, WOW charged me 6 years of time because it was fun and rapidly got me from fun thing A to fun thing B, whereas FFX charged me 30 minutes of time because the UI/controls were terrible and it felt grindy even at the start.  So I guess the actual price being paid is quite a bit higher in WOW.

In reality, all people care about is return on investment -- invest x time, get y fun.   If the ratio is terrible, players aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments to be had.

In short, they're only going to "pay" (in time) for the games they perceive as worthwhile.

 

 

Wanna talk nonsensical argument.... you start posting your own expeirence in a game...so now that we are totaly throwing facts out the window.

 

I played FFXI for 2.5 years...AND LOVED IT. best MMO I"VE ever played... PERIOD!

 

WoW...I played for 2 months...burned through 90% of the content and quit...

 

and your "in reality, all peopel care about is return on investment.." so what you are saying is every single person out there that says "Oh I didn't like old games because it took me 3 hours to party, and I don't have for that." is full of it?

They "aren't going to stick around long because there are more efficient time investments"?

 

 

Pretty much what you are saying to me is...

WoW + 10milliion players = fun

McDonalds models doesn't work because time investment has nothing to do with a game popularity....

 

So your saying a player base has nothing to do with time investment... So IF someone made a game that took 4 hours to find a party, but it was "as much fun as WoW" it would still have 10million subs?

 

You leaves so many flaws in your argument I don't even know were to start...

This sounds more like FFXI was your style of gameplay and a preferance. In your opinion it's the best MMO ever,  though you forget games like WoW have a targeted audiance, just like Aion, AoC, and STO, you can't convince them other wise.

Originally posted by rutaq

So if 10 million people spend 1 hour eating McDonald's per week it doesn't make the food better than 1000 people spending 1 hour dining on a good steak.

Which is why the comparison doesn't work.

There are so many variables that makes McDonalds a reasonable place to eat for many over other places despite the food not being the best (at least scientifically in health terms) that does not correlate to an mmo vs mmo.

- Price: rather self explanatory actually this is very contradictory to a comparison to mcdonalds since wow's pricing is the highest in the market while mcdonalds is relatively cheap.

- Availibility: Virtually all mmo's are available in the same store and/or on the interent there's nothing comparable to driving for two hours to eat at resturant x instead of mcdonalds around the corner in mmo terms.

- Speed: MMO's have no wait time until you get to partake in the service (specific server queus do not coun't) they are all equal in footing IE instant, not so much for resturants.

- Food: there's just a slight difference between offering a product that is necessary to live and a specifc form of entertainment very very few people (relative to world population) enjoy.

me too!